E-Ro Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Well, like the last one, talk about Stannis, again. My last post Another thing, I should add here. Regarding succession. People, the targs lost the throne. So their succession laws are irrelevant. Stannis is the heir to the throne, if a targ takes it by force fine. But until that happens Stannis is the king. the lannisters have not taken the throne by conquest because they are trying to pass off bastards as baratheons, still ruling in the baratheon name. so the argument that they took it doesnt fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I agree with that viewpoint regarding the Lannister bastards taking the throne. That situation is not the same as the Targaryen's being ousted, so the same logic doesn't fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Dragonstone Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I have to say the whole "right of conquest" thing makes the whole rightful king rather meaningless. I mean, how dare the Northern usurpers take away Winterfell from its rightful ruler, Theon Greyjoy. Personally I don't give a fig about who has the best claim. I care about who would be the best ruler. Stannis is definitely up there though, so I'm definitely a supporter, even if his reasons for pursuing the throne are the exact opposite of why I want him on the IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 I have to say the whole "right of conquest" thing makes the whole rightful king rather meaningless. I mean, how dare the Northern usurpers take away Winterfell from its rightful ruler, Theon Greyjoy.Personally I don't give a fig about who has the best claim. I care about who would be the best ruler. Stannis is definitely up there though, so I'm definitely a supporter, even if his reasons for pursuing the throne are the exact opposite of why I want him on the IT.Sure, the best ruler is important. But so is having a claim. I mean, sure you can forcibly CREATE a claim if you have enough force, but that is rare. A large part of westerosi society is blood, and he illusion of right, when really the whole system is just force. Anyway, going into the "best ruler" part of your post, imo, Stannis is the best ruler of all the current candidates. Better then Jon, dany, tommen, and faegon. He has what it takes I think, the right ideas, etc. He hits all i could want in a king perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyrionstark Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 And could you cite some reasons as to why you think he is stupid and dumb?(great words btw, stupid and dumb, I love em) Stannis is stupid because he is following a woman who unwittingly advocates the end of all life. Stannis is dumb for basically the same reason. He is an ass, and a tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah, I could've sworn there was some sexual tension going on between Longclaw and Stannis' sword when he and Jon were discussing Stannis' plans against the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickeen Stark Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Longclaw and Lightbringer pale in comparison to... Tormund's Member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendrys Forge Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I hate how dany crys about "the usurper", especially considering that the only reason her family ever held the throne was because they did the same thing, and if she is to ever have it she will have to do it too, what a hypocrite. Big bad bob didn't even need dragons to do it either, just a large hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 Stannis is stupid because he is following a woman who unwittingly advocates the end of all life. Stannis is dumb for basically the same reason. He is an ass, and a tool. How does mel advocate the end of all life? You must be privy to some information the rest of us arent, please share!(or you are pulling shit out of I dont know where. because that info certainly isnt from the books) Mel has real power, Stannis has seen that power. So he listens to her because of that, he doesnt really want to go with what she says, but he is worried that if what she is saying is true the ramifications could disastrous. Hope that clears things up.(ofc i suspect you arent really interested in discussion either way) He is dumb for the same reason? So you used two words that mean the same thing? Interesting. An ass and a tool? Well he has an ass, im sure, it isnt ever described in much depth though but im sure its there. A tool? He is of course a tool, all men are tools, each with our own uses. Yeah, I could've sworn there was some sexual tension going on between Longclaw and Stannis' sword when he and Jon were discussing Stannis' plans against the North. lmao -1/10. agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheButcherCrow Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Oh Stannis, what a quality character. A weak-minded, strong-willed, principled, ruthless, just, capricious, clever idiot. The funniest man in Westeros even though he doesn't understand humour. A walking contradiction of an enigma wrapped in a riddle topped with a mystery :) Seriously though, he is a utilitarian at heart. He does what he deems appropriate and always with an attempt to be fair. Yes the sword's fake, yes Mel is fucking scandalous but he only ever seems to want what is just and is prepared to do almost anything to see that justice done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 GRRM has actually said mel is the most misunderstood character in the series, make of that what you will. Personally I think she gets way too much hate from people, she is doing what she thinks is best. I feel she has legitimate concern for the world, and its future. The others are a very real threat, she knows this, Stannis knows it, and they are trying to stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 People, the targs lost the throne. So their succession laws are irrelevant. Stannis is the heir to the throne, if a targ takes it by force fine. But until that happens Stannis is the king. the lannisters have not taken the throne by conquest because they are trying to pass off bastards as baratheons, still ruling in the baratheon name. so the argument that they took it doesnt fly. The more I think about claims and rights, the more certain I am they count for nothing. Legalities are strange game, my friend. If we say that by the right of conquest, Baratheons are the ruling dynasty, then until Cersei would be trialed and judged guilty, Stannis is no King. What we objectively know and what is legality are two different things. So, until Cersei is being found guilty and her children being proclaimed illegitimate, even though we know objectively that is true, Stannis is no King. Of course, one can argue that Stannis as the Master of Laws in previous administration could have proclaimed Cersei and her children illegitimate due to evidence he had, and de facto name himself a King. But, as you see, this all conundrum about claims, rights and succession lines is rather nonsensical. For as much as we would like to have law and order in Westeros, thing is might matters the most. And just like Daenerys could yell "I am blood of dragons", Stannis could angrily repeat "IT is mine"... Yeah, I could've sworn there was some sexual tension going on between Longclaw and Stannis' sword when he and Jon were discussing Stannis' plans against the North. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 The more I think about claims and rights, the more certain I am they count for nothing. Legalities are strange game, my friend. If we say that by the right of conquest, Baratheons are the ruling dynasty, then until Cersei would be trialed and judged guilty, Stannis is no King. What we objectively know and what is legality are two different things. So, until Cersei is being found guilty and her children being proclaimed illegitimate, even though we know objectively that is true, Stannis is no King. Of course, one can argue that Stannis as the Master of Laws in previous administration could have proclaimed Cersei and her children illegitimate due to evidence he had, and de facto name himself a King. But, as you see, this all conundrum about claims, rights and succession lines is rather nonsensical. For as much as we would like to have law and order in Westeros, thing is might matters the most. And just like Daenerys could yell "I am blood of dragons", Stannis could angrily repeat "IT is mine"... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: I agree that might does matter the most. But there are plenty of cases of power being transferred to a new king peacefully. Indeed most of the time when a king passes his heir will inherit, most of the time that being his eldest son. but when that heir is questioned things will inevitably lead to violence as the law in westeros is not as strong as it could be. So I do agree with the gist of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I hate how dany crys about "the usurper", especially considering that the only reason her family ever held the throne was because they did the same thing, and if she is to ever have it she will have to do it too, what a hypocrite. Big bad bob didn't even need dragons to do it either, just a large hammer. To be fair, the Targ didn't do the same thing... they created a new entity by conquering neighbouring kingdoms. Robert simply replaced the leadership of an already existing kingdom. Stannis is stupid because he is following a woman who unwittingly advocates the end of all life. Stannis is dumb for basically the same reason. He is an ass, and a tool. Stannis is many negative things, stupid isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Pintur Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I love the fact that Stannis smiles when he talks about the upcoming battle with Theon. You know its gonna get real when the guy who we are told repeatedly never smiles does just that. Edit: oops spoilers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyrionstark Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 GRRM has actually said mel is the most misunderstood character in the series, make of that what you will. Personally I think she gets way too much hate from people, she is doing what she thinks is best. I feel she has legitimate concern for the world, and its future. The others are a very real threat, she knows this, Stannis knows it, and they are trying to stop them. The word "misunderstood" can be taken two different ways. The first is the way you're taking it: oh poor shadow cunt killer. The second is the appropriate one. She is the apparent champion and representative of the apparent opposition to the great evil. Martin's interpretation of "misundertood" is a confirmation that she is in the thick of evil and idiocy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Ahai Reborn Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I don't find the text to be as clear about Mel and Stannis being all about stopping the Others as you seem to. What in the text do you see as not being clear about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I don't find the text to be as clear about Mel and Stannis being all about stopping the Others as you seem to. Guess who said this. Demons made of snow and ice and cold...The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters The more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 I don't find the text to be as clear about Mel and Stannis being all about stopping the Others as you seem to.In addition to the two quotes above Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight." and the author said Stannis understood who the real enemy is, soooo yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Éadaoin Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 What in the text do you see as not being clear about that?Yeah, I would like to know as well. It seems pretty clear to me that both of them know about the threat of the others AND want to stop them. In fact the author has said it of Stannis.As for the legaility vs force aspect of westeros. I think both are pretty important, tbh. Force may be more important, especially when the shit hits the fan and there are different heirs that are vying for the throne. but most of the time, power is passed without a fight. Also, legitimacy can sometimes actually lead to a person having tons of might in the form of armies or lords supporting that person as a result of said legitimacy. An example would be if ned had gotten out of kings landing and into the north, he would have supported Stannis for no other reason then Stannis is the rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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