When did Roose Turn Against the Starks?

[BryndenBFish]

I've been ruminating over when Roose Bolton turned against the Starks. I think I've come to a fairly unique conclusion: Roose Bolton was never a loyal Stark bannerman, and his disloyalty extended as far back as the Battle of the Trident.

I wrote a full essay on my blog, but I wanted to get your thoughts. But here's a short sample.

By advising the victors of the Trident to kill Barristan Selmy, I think that Roose Bolton was attempting to undermine them. If Barristan were to be killed, he would lend dishonor to those who ordered the sword swung and the man who swung it. Eddard Stark in particular would have been de-legitimized. Had Robert and Ned followed this advice, I think it likely that Eddard would have been the one to swing the sword. Ned was loathe to let another man enforce the sentence that he passed. When Robert gave the order to have Lady killed early in AGOT, Eddard did the deed himself rather than let a headsman do the job. And Roose? He would not be the one dishonoring his blade. He would stand apart while the deed was done. And when it was done, Eddard’s reputation would take a dive throughout Westeros while Roose’s would likely remain unchanged.

More here, but what do you all think?

[Light a wight tonight]

Way overthought. The Boltons were always one step away from rising against the Starks. By "always" I mean over the last couple of thousand years.

[Sordelor]

I think the Starks and Boltons had always been enemies and that Roose never liked them in the first place, but tought of betraying them right after he took Harrenhal.

[Chaircat Meow]

Well, I agree in principle. Roose was never loyal in the sense he was ever animated by loyalty or affection for the Starks.

I don't think he engaged in treachery until he told Ramsay to burn Winterfell though.

Before that he'd been trying to aggrandize himself by seizing the Hornwood lands, and I think he placed Lord Hornwood in as much danger as he could at the battle of the Green Fork to create this opportunity.

[Lord Jennings]

I think it has always been "strike when the iron is hot" with the boltons. Roose possesses an above average level of cunning so once he sees the Karstarks leave and Robb marry a girl not named Frey I feel as if he knew he could take advantage of his position.

[Lord Jennings]

Well, I agree in principle. Roose was never loyal in the sense he was ever animated by loyalty or affection for the Starks.

I don't think he engaged in treachery until he told Ramsay to burn Winterfell though.

Before that he'd been trying to aggrandize himself by seizing the Hornwood lands, and I think he placed Lord Hornwood in as much danger as he could at the battle of the Green Fork to create this opportunity.

^^^^

[Grimbold]

Well, more currently and considerably simplified, the Starks were sort of winning down south and having their lands devastated.

Robb going back north - i guess sort of risking losing what he gained - was kinda of the last nail in the coffin.

Roose realised he had nothing to gain from the Starks.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

His suggestion to execute Barristan was sound. The fact Barristan eventually went and rejoined the Targ faction is evidence of his loyalty.

[Winterfell Resident]

I have to agree with Light a wight tonight.

I do remember reading about how the Boltons, for a few thousand years, were always trying to rise up against the Starks. And that the last uprising did not end well for the Boltons.

I also believe I read somewhere that there were other lords in the north who are loyal to the Starks, that wanted the Starks to eradicate the Boltons and destroy the Dreadfort to the ground. The Starks declined. If I am wrong about this, please correct me.

What Roose Bolton did was TextBook stuff that has been tried for thousands of years by the Boltons.

I would assume that this is a tradition that has been instilled in every Bolton child to always look for a way to bring down the Starks and to have the Boltons rule the north.

What happened with Ned being in prison was a perfect opportunity for Roose Bolton to continue the family tradition.

To answer the question, "When did Roose turn against the Starks?", I would have to say from the beginning. This is something that is passed down from generation to generation. Roose just found an opportunity when A Clash of Kings began.

[Petyr Patter]

His suggestion to execute Barristan was sound. The fact Barristan eventually went and rejoined the Targ faction is evidence of his loyalty.

No. He was DISMISSED, and then used his freedom to rejoin the Targaryen faction. Had Joffrey not dismissed him, he'd still be in King's Landing protecting Tommen.

[Lord Thornhart]

Roose was loyal until he was promised Warden of the North. His methods are actually kind of basic Westeros politics. Take orders when you have to and jump to be the one giving orders when you get the chance.

[shearstone]

I always wondered what Roose was upto the Green fork battle can be looked at as Roose eliminating Lords who may have questioned his command (Hornwood for instance) but I think it was more dumb luck that killed them, than Roose's machinations as for instance Roose couldn't have known Lord Hornwoods son would die at the same time. I also believe Ramsay acted alone in kidnapping Lady Hornwood (well by alone with out his fathers position and main garrison), It doesn't seem like Roose to draw attention to himself in that way and at the time Winterfell was safe and Robb was winning the only way I can see Roose agreeing to it is because he believed the Starks would execute Ramsay, ridding Roose of him. However my only evidence of this is that Ramsay used his fathers garrison at Winterfell but not against Lady Hornwood, if he had they'd have been killed by Rodrik and Manderly. So my guess is Roose is content, thinks his idiot, savage son is dead and the war is going fine for Robb then what does he receive but a raven from the dreadfort from his not so dead son saying Theon has Winterfell and the stark boys are missing presumed dead. This presents Roose with an excellent opportunity to destroy Winterfall and the northern central authority with it so he gives Ramsay his permission and tells him to save the Frey's. Then the blackwater happens (I'm pretty sure it happens after at least) and it's game over for Robb so Roose starts properly planning to switch sides.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Frey Pie]

Roose was never loyal per say. I don't agree with the Barristan line of thought, that's just Roose being a prick. If Robb had ruled the North and no war had ever happened I'd say Roose would have sat quiet until there was a great opportunity

As for the War, Rooses first act of treachery was at the Battle of the GF. Rooses attempt to win this battle were below a man of his cunning and reputation. From here on any Roose looked for opportunity he could to put the men under his care in danger. He was always treacheorus, never loyal, but the GF was his first actual betrayal.

There are a number of reasons Robb died, among them Robbs own mistakes. However, I believe Roose was the single most reason for Robbs death. I believe he ordered the burning of the Hornwood lands, the sack of Winterfell, his son advised the skinning of "Bran and Rickon", he single handedly lost more men during the war then any other, and he ya know....stabbed Robb with a sword....so ya

[BryndenBFish]

Way overthought. The Boltons were always one step away from rising against the Starks. By "always" I mean over the last couple of thousand years.

Perhaps that part was too overthought, but I did find it interesting that Roose would counsel this. It wouldn't bring any benefit to the rebels; it would likely diminish their cause in the eyes of lords and smallfolk alike. And Roose likely was aware of this. I think that Roose's base motivation was power, and on a lesser extent, the Bolton historical grievance against the Starks (Harlon Stark's siege of the Dreadfort as an example). And we also know Roose to be cold and cunning. A cold and cunning man would not advocate the death of Selmy to sate his own cruelty. I'm supposing that there was an intent to undermine Ned Stark's legitimacy at the cusp of his greatest victory.

[Frey Pie]

I always wondered what Roose was upto the Green fork battle can be looked at as Roose eliminating Lords who may have questioned his command (Hornwood for instance) but I think it was more dumb luck that killed them, than Roose's machinations as for instance Roose couldn't have known Lord Hornwoods son would die at the same time. I also believe Ramsay acted alone in kidnapping Lady Hornwood (well by alone with out his fathers position and main garrison), It doesn't seem like Roose to draw attention to himself in that way and at the time Winterfell was safe and Robb was winning the only way I can see Roose agreeing to it is because he believed the Starks would execute Ramsay, ridding Roose of him. However my only evidence of this is that Ramsay used his fathers garrison at Winterfell but not against Lady Hornwood, if he had they'd have been killed by Rodrik and Manderly. So my guess is Roose is content, thinks his idiot, savage son is dead and the war is going fine for Robb then what does he receive but a raven from the dreadfort from his not so dead son saying Theon has Winterfell and the stark boys are missing presumed dead. This presents Roose with an excellent opportunity to destroy Winterfall and the northern central authority with it so he gives Ramsay his permission and tells him to save the Frey's. Then the blackwater happens (I'm pretty sure it happens after at least) and it's game over for Robb so Roose starts properly planning to switch sides.

That's my take on it anyway.

Quite possibly. I would be more inclined to think however, that Ramsay used men from his fathers lands rather like Tywin used Gregor at the start of the war-no banners, no fancy armour etc etc. Basically so he couldn't be held accountable if they were caught

There's also the fact that Roose completely threw out the rule book when he went up against Tywin. He was picked because he was a calm, sharp minded individual, unlikely to be rash, as opposed to the GJ. However, his tactic at the GF is exactly what the GJ would have done. He attacked Tywin at a very strong position. He marched his men all night so they were almost too tired to fight. And he doesn't commit any of his own men to battle. He loses nearly a third of the Northern foot-a huge amount of men for a single battle. This is not characteristic of the Roose we know and so to me is highly suspicious

[Nittanian]

I've been ruminating over when Roose Bolton turned against the Starks. I think I've come to a fairly unique conclusion: Roose Bolton was never a loyal Stark bannerman, and his disloyalty extended as far back as the Battle of the Trident.

You have some intriguing observations! I'm on the fence about Roose advising the death of Barristan; it could be strategic or it could just be his lack of concern for human life. I've long held that Roose's conversion to the anti-Stark cause is after learning of Blackwater. His comment about hunting wolves is great symbolically. GRRM seems to feel that Roose was still on the fence as late as his meeting with Jaime at Harrenhal. I presume this is because as Jaime is no longer a hostage of the Starks or Karstarks, Tywin can approve the Red Wedding and Jaime will be safe from retribution.

I'm not sure if Roose tasked Ramsay with burning Winterfell or if the Bastard acted independently; I've read differing discussions about the time frame. What do you think?

[Chaircat Meow]

There's also the fact that Roose completely threw out the rule book when he went up against Tywin. He was picked because he was a calm, sharp minded individual, unlikely to be rash, as opposed to the GJ. However, his tactic at the GF is exactly what the GJ would have done. He attacked Tywin at a very strong position. He marched his men all night so they were almost too tired to fight. And he doesn't commit any of his own men to battle. He loses nearly a third of the Northern foot-a huge amount of men for a single battle. This is not characteristic of the Roose we know and so to me is highly suspicious

Hehe, still not facing up to the fact Roose was just following Robb's orders ... :)

[BryndenBFish]

To answer the question, "When did Roose turn against the Starks?", I would have to say from the beginning. This is something that is passed down from generation to generation. Roose just found an opportunity when A Clash of Kings began.

Agreed. There was a long, historical animosity between Stark and Bolton going back thousands of years. Roose just happened to get the best of the Starks this time around. I really like the idea of every Bolton child learning hatred of the Starks from an early age. That would make sense. With the whole historical grievance thing going for them, it's little wonder that Roose looked for opportunities to undermine the Starks.

[Light a wight tonight]

There's also the fact that Roose completely threw out the rule book when he went up against Tywin. He was picked because he was a calm, sharp minded individual, unlikely to be rash, as opposed to the GJ. However, his tactic at the GF is exactly what the GJ would have done. He attacked Tywin at a very strong position. He marched his men all night so they were almost too tired to fight. And he doesn't commit any of his own men to battle. He loses nearly a third of the Northern foot-a huge amount of men for a single battle. This is not characteristic of the Roose we know and so to me is highly suspicious

This part makes me think that he was already at least thinking about deserting Robb and maybe already colluding with the Lannisters. If Robb had been successful in his other campaigns there was no way to prove that Roose was betraying him, and if Tyrion wins, as happens, Roose looks like an ally.

[BryndenBFish]

Hehe, still not facing up to the fact Roose was just following Robb's orders ... :)

But Robb's orders (at least in his telling to Catelyn) was not to attack Roose Bolton, but to defend the crossing from Tywin's attempts to link his two hosts together.

"When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun." Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

Catelyn frowned down at the map. "You'd put a river between the two parts of your army."

"And between Jaime and Lord Tywin," he said eagerly. The smile came at last. "There's no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown." (AGOT, Catelyn VIII)