When did Roose Turn Against the Starks?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I believe he was always waiting for an oportunity to try and advance himself.

[Rickeen Stark]

About Roose attacking Tywin, I think it wasn't dumb. For one, his orders were pretty much, distract Tywin. Secondly, the men who were lost were 'opponents' of his. He manages to get out the best of the attack and still appear loyal; maybe he even was. I don't believe he had the intention of betraying Robb until Robb began outright ignoring advice and screwing up. ( Not Robb bashing, just if you see it from Roose's point of view! ) At least it was not exactly, personal, per say. Robb doesn't register on Roose's radar. He was a means to an end. If he won, Northern independance and Roose could've dealt with a not very 'strong' Stark Lord. Option two! Well, that happened.

About the kidnapping of Lady Hornwood, I doubt he had as much to do with it as many think. Ramsay, despite popular belief, is not stupid. I see him more on par with Cersei; they are smart and cunning, but they tend to do things spur of the moment and their passions lead them. Cunning is it's own intelligence, and Ramsay has that. He took the wife and became a 'somebody'. Did it in Bolton style too!

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

About Roose attacking Tywin, I think it wasn't dumb. For one, his orders were pretty much, distract Tywin. Secondly, the men who were lost were 'opponents' of his. He manages to get out the best of the attack and still appear loyal; maybe he even was. I don't believe he had the intention of betraying Robb until Robb began outright ignoring advice and screwing up. ( Not Robb bashing, just if you see it from Roose's point of view! ) At least it was not exactly, personal, per say. Robb doesn't register on Roose's radar. He was a means to an end. If he won, Northern independance and Roose could've dealt with a not very 'strong' Stark Lord. Option two! Well, that happened.

About the kidnapping of Lady Hornwood, I doubt he had as much to do with it as many think. Ramsay, despite popular belief, is not stupid. I see him more on par with Cersei; they are smart and cunning, but they tend to do things spur of the moment and their passions lead them. Cunning is it's own intelligence, and Ramsay has that. He took the wife and became a 'somebody'. Did it in Bolton style too!

Ahh yes, a certain "low cunning" is used to describe Ramsay

I am hopeful that we can get a better insight into whatever tutelage he has received from Roose, it could give us better insight into both characters and their motives. I hope we find out a little more about the first Reek, maybe it would shed further light on Ramsay's upbringing. I buy into the whole "bastard born of rape" deal, but there has to be more to explain just how vicious he is. He truly is a beast in human skin.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Roose tells the readers himself when he did: when Theon took Winterfell.

[Mourneblade]

I really doubt Roose ordered the kidnap of Lady Hornwood. It was rash, it brought suspicion and hatred on the only living heir of House Bolton, as well as action against him, at a time when the Northerners were still strong. And for what? Minimal gain, really, relative to the stakes Roose was playing for when he turned. It was not a wise move, which makes me think Ramsay was acting alone, as an opportunist.

He absolutely did. He even makes sure the hornwoods are in the front lines. People keep forgetting that Roose tries to only make Win/Win decision. If Ramsey is caught and executed, Roose gets vengeance for his true born sons death with plausible deniability. If Ramsey pulls it off, and then gets executed, Roose gets the lands AND vengeance lol. If Ramsey pulls it off and draws out troops from Winterfell to attack the Dreadfort, we'll that opens up Winterfell.

To the OP Roose is always looking for an opportunity to betray the Starks, but is also making sure to appear loyal. His attack at the GF was perfectly executed to accomplish both. First Tywin's tactical ability is largely unproven and a quick assault might have worked. Second Roose keeps his loyal troops in reserve and should his attack fail, well that only weakens Robb. Third, and the reason he was chosen, he was perfectly prepared to lose the battle, but keep the army alive. Roose's host is not broken and retreats in order, and survives. Which is what a tactical feint is supposed to do.

Now Roose goes from passive betrayal to active betrayal once Theon seizes Winterfell and Ramsey contacts him. At this point Roose knows this is an all in decision.

[BryndenBFish]

He absolutely did. He even makes sure the hornwoods are in the front lines. People keep forgetting that Roose tries to only make Win/Win decision. If Ramsey is caught and executed, Roose gets vengeance for his true born sons death with plausible deniability. If Ramsey pulls it off, and then gets executed, Roose gets the lands AND vengeance lol. If Ramsey pulls it off and draws out troops from Winterfell to attack the Dreadfort, we'll that opens up Winterfell.

To the OP Roose is always looking for an opportunity to betray the Starks, but is also making sure to appear loyal. His attack at the GF was perfectly executed to accomplish both. First Tywin's tactical ability is largely unproven and a quick assault might have worked. Second Roose keeps his loyal troops in reserve and should his attack fail, well that only weakens Robb. Third, and the reason he was chosen, he was perfectly prepared to lose the battle, but keep the army alive. Roose's host is not broken and retreats in order, and survives. Which is what a tactical feint is supposed to do.

Now Roose goes from passive betrayal to active betrayal once Theon seizes Winterfell and Ramsey contacts him. At this point Roose knows this is an all in decision.

Interesting theory per Winterfell. I believe that Roose ordered the sack on account of Big Walder and Little Walder being taken as Ramsay's squires. I think that Roose's betrayal was more active though. During the Battle of the Green Fork, there's a curious passage (that I did a more thorough breakdown of in the linked essay).

A flight of arrows descended on them; where they came from he could not say, but they fell on Stark and Lannister alike, rattling off armor or finding flesh. (AGOT, Tyrion VIII)

I think the arrows weren't fired by Tywin's men. I believe they were shot from the North by the Bolton reserve -- remember that Dreadfort men did not enter the battle in any significant way, but I think they fired arrows when the Lannisters and Northmen were joined in battle. So, I think Roose was taking a quite active role in betraying Robb Stark early in the war, much earlier than commonly believed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

"I mean you no harm, you know. I owe you much and more."

"You do?" Some part of him was screaming, This is a trap, he is playing with you, the son is just the shadow of the father. Lord Ramsay played with his hopes all the time. "What what do you owe me, m'lord?"

"The north. The Starks were done and doomed the night that you took Winterfell." He waved a pale hand, dismissive. "All this is only squabbling over spoils."

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

He had it planned all along, or at least he was waiting for his opportunity. Long before all seemed lost, before Karstark killed the Lannister kids Roose was already planning on jumping ship. Saying he was simply responding to Robb's mistakes isn't true. He purposely sent a third of Robb's men off to die making Karstark's eventual betrayal and the loss of his troops essential. If I had to bet Tywin was already plotting with Walder Frey and Roose long before Robb married Jeyne, it just served as their excuse. Roose was always thinking about becoming King in the North, or Lord Paramount, he saw an opportunity and he took it. His loyalty was always for sale. He decided to betray the Starks the moment he was born.

[BryndenBFish]

He had it planned all along, or at least he was waiting for his opportunity. Long before all seemed lost, before Karstark killed the Lannister kids Roose was already planning on jumping ship. Saying he was simply responding to Robb's mistakes isn't true. He purposely sent a third of Robb's men off to die making Karstark's eventual betrayal and the loss of his troops essential. If I had to bet Tywin was already plotting with Walder Frey and Roose long before Robb married Jeyne, it just served as their excuse. Roose was always thinking about becoming King in the North, or Lord Paramount, he saw an opportunity and he took it. His loyalty was always for sale. He decided to betray the Starks the moment he was born.

While I think that Roose had an opportunist streak to him, I also think the long history of animosity between Stark and Bolton played a part in Roose's decision to betray his liege lord and king. That said, I don't recall textual evidence of Roose wanting to become King in the North. Can you point me to a passage where this is mentioned?

[shearstone]

While I think that Roose had an opportunist streak to him, I also think the long history of animosity between Stark and Bolton played a part in Roose's decision to betray his liege lord and king. That said, I don't recall textual evidence of Roose wanting to become King in the North. Can you point me to a passage where this is mentioned?

Prince of Winterfell in ADWD? It's a theon chapter anyway and it's where Lady Dustin talks about Roose with Theon and she says he may aspire to a crown and that the Boltons where kings once.

[Sansa_Stark]

While I think that Roose had an opportunist streak to him, I also think the long history of animosity between Stark and Bolton played a part in Roose's decision to betray his liege lord and king. That said, I don't recall textual evidence of Roose wanting to become King in the North. Can you point me to a passage where this is mentioned?

Lady Dustin thinks Roose wants to become King of the North.

[BitsOfBrains]

At Ramsays wedding Roose says something like, "Thus ending the long enmity between house Stark and house Bolton."

It seems to me the Boltons have been nursing their grudge from the thousands of years old feud, passing it down from generation to generation, and the Starks have pretty much gotten over the fact that Boltons used to skin Starks alive.

Either that or Ned just forgot to tell his kids that the Boltons are bad news. It seems to me the only info the Stark kids got about who the Boltons really are came from Old Nan.

Roose is just completely self interested with no consideration for anyone but himself. If Robb had won he would have been, "loyal" forever. Its all business with Roose Bolton.

[BryndenBFish]

Prince of Winterfell in ADWD? It's a theon chapter anyway and it's where Lady Dustin talks about Roose with Theon and she says he may aspire to a crown and that the Boltons where kings once.

Thanks. It's been about a half year since my last re-read of ADWD, so thanks for the reminder.

At Ramsays wedding Roose says something like, "Thus ending the long enmity between house Stark and house Bolton."

It seems to me the Boltons have been nursing their grudge from the thousands of years old feud, passing it down from generation to generation, and the Starks have pretty much gotten over the fact that Boltons used to skin Starks alive.

Either that or Ned just forgot to tell his kids that the Boltons are bad news. It seems to me the only info the Stark kids got about who the Boltons really are came from Old Nan.

Roose is just completely self interested with no consideration for anyone but himself. If Robb had won he would have been, "loyal" forever. Its all business with Roose Bolton.

I think Roose Bolton's grudge against the Starks can be compared to that of the Serbs during the Kosovo War in 1999. Many have a short-term historical memory. I think the Starks might fall victim to this as well. Roose Bolton (like the Serbs) has a long-term historical memory. He remembers that the Starks crushed the Boltons in previous rebellions, and it probably gnaws at him much like the 1389 Battle of Kosovo gnawed at the Serbs who were defeated by the Turks. And I think this speaks to the way that defeat paves the way for heritage as opposed to history. For Roose and Ramsay, the memory of the final Bolton Rebellion may be as fresh to them as the day it failed when the Starks starved their ancestors out at the Dreadfort.

[Mourneblade]

Interesting theory per Winterfell. I believe that Roose ordered the sack on account of Big Walder and Little Walder being taken as Ramsay's squires. I think that Roose's betrayal was more active though. During the Battle of the Green Fork, there's a curious passage (that I did a more thorough breakdown of in the linked essay).

A flight of arrows descended on them; where they came from he could not say, but they fell on Stark and Lannister alike, rattling off armor or finding flesh. (AGOT, Tyrion VIII)

I think the arrows weren't fired by Tywin's men. I believe they were shot from the North by the Bolton reserve -- remember that Dreadfort men did not enter the battle in any significant way, but I think they fired arrows when the Lannisters and Northmen were joined in battle. So, I think Roose was taking a quite active role in betraying Robb Stark early in the war, much earlier than commonly believed.

That is an interesting idea. You would think though that if Roose is the one who orders this any one of the living northern lords would have objected to Robb. And even so this is still easily dismissed. As it was Roose's core mission to keep his host alive. Robb would have freaked for sure, but he would still not have seen betrayal, just heartless tactics. Still though he might have relieved Roose.

As soon as Ned is dead Roose knows he has the perfect opportunity. Also he despises "boy lords". Hopefully we will get to know Roose before he is killed. I still believe that Roose will not be in Winterfell when Stannis arrives. I just do not feel Roose would fall for any kind of deception that allows Stannis to take Winterfell. So IMHO if Stannis takes Winterfell by disguise then Roose would have already left most of his core to the Dreadfort.

[Nittanian]

I think that Edmure received an unfair share of the blame, because Robb's orders weren't very clear. "Hold Riverrun" is broad enough to be interpreted to "Defend the Riverlands" as Stefan Sasse pointed out in his excellent Riverrun Decision essay on Tower of the Hand.

I agree; when Catelyn meets Martyn Rivers' outriders while returning to Riverrun, his scout tells her that "His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear" (emphasis mine, ACOK, Catelyn V).

[Lost Melnibonean]

Interesting theory per Winterfell. I believe that Roose ordered the sack on account of Big Walder and Little Walder being taken as Ramsay's squires. I think that Roose's betrayal was more active though. During the Battle of the Green Fork, there's a curious passage (that I did a more thorough breakdown of in the linked essay).

A flight of arrows descended on them; where they came from he could not say, but they fell on Stark and Lannister alike, rattling off armor or finding flesh. (AGOT, Tyrion VIII)

I think the arrows weren't fired by Tywin's men. I believe they were shot from the North by the Bolton reserve -- remember that Dreadfort men did not enter the battle in any significant way, but I think they fired arrows when the Lannisters and Northmen were joined in battle. So, I think Roose was taking a quite active role in betraying Robb Stark early in the war, much earlier than commonly believed.

I am going to watch for this the next time I read the second half of Game. But I don't believe Roose was purposefully killing his own men. This kind of thing is all too common in battle. Anybody recall this scene from Platoon...

You ignorant asshole! What the fuck coordinates you giving? You wasted a lot of people up there with your fucked-up fire mission! You know that? You know that? Ah, shit!

[Frey Pie]

Hehe, still not facing up to the fact Roose was just following Robb's orders ... :)

Haha what were Robbs exact orders again? As far as I remember we hear that Greatjon has come up with a plan for what he himself would do and then Robb relieves him of command? If Robb said tire your men out, try to catch the most careful, methodical man in Westeros with his pants down and hey,attack him where he's strongest, then I hold my hands up and say you fucked up Robb.

This part makes me think that he was already at least thinking about deserting Robb and maybe already colluding with the Lannisters. If Robb had been successful in his other campaigns there was no way to prove that Roose was betraying him, and if Tyrion wins, as happens, Roose looks like an ally.

Ran and George confirmed somewhere that from day 1 Roose was looking out for number one. Now, is deliberately getting your rivals killed an act of betrayal against your overlord? In my book, unless it was ordered, yes. However I doubt Roose was colluding with the Lannisters at this stage. More like weakening his rivals but sitting on the fence. He didn't want to win, but he didn't want to lose to badly either IMHO, so he can stay on that fence for as loong as possible and observe from afar. After the BW then he jumps over the fence

[BryndenBFish]

That is an interesting idea. You would think though that if Roose is the one who orders this any one of the living northern lords would have objected to Robb. And even so this is still easily dismissed. As it was Roose's core mission to keep his host alive. Robb would have freaked for sure, but he would still not have seen betrayal, just heartless tactics. Still though he might have relieved Roose.

As soon as Ned is dead Roose knows he has the perfect opportunity. Also he despises "boy lords". Hopefully we will get to know Roose before he is killed. I still believe that Roose will not be in Winterfell when Stannis arrives. I just do not feel Roose would fall for any kind of deception that allows Stannis to take Winterfell. So IMHO if Stannis takes Winterfell by disguise then Roose would have already left most of his core to the Dreadfort.

Yeah. Roose's situation at Winterfell is becoming more and more precarious. He has food shortages and disloyal leal lords to deal with. I do think he will leave the castle in Ramsay's hands before taking off with Fat Walda and a large contingent of his troops towards the Dreadfort. I'd probably wager that Roose will be taking most of his 6,000 Dreadfort men he brought up from Riverrun with him, leaving Ramsay with his 500-600 soldiers to hold the castle. For Roose, this would be a win-win situation. If Ramsay defeats Stannis Baratheon in battle (which I've written on previously and think highly unlikely), he eliminates the greatest external threat to his wardenship of the North. If Ramsay loses the battle, I think Roose wins by eliminating his unruly bastard son. His new wife bears a trueborn son, and he still has the Dreadfort to hole up in and hopefully Lannister/Tyrell reinforcements to relieve him if worse comes to worse.

[Frey Pie]

I am going to watch for this the next time I read the second half of Game. But I don't believe Roose was purposefully killing his own men. This kind of thing is all too common in battle. Anybody recall this scene from Platoon...

You ignorant asshole! What the fuck coordinates you giving? You wasted a lot of people up there with your fucked-up fire mission! You know that? You know that? Ah, shit!

Roose wouldn't kill his own men but he most definitely got his rival lords and their men killed as often as possible

Even though it's true arrows could be fired at allies and enemies alike

[Frey Pie]

Yeah. Roose's situation at Winterfell is becoming more and more precarious. He has food shortages and disloyal leal lords to deal with. I do think he will leave the castle in Ramsay's hands before taking off with Fat Walda and a large contingent of his troops towards the Dreadfort. I'd probably wager that Roose will be taking most of his 6,000 Dreadfort men he brought up from Riverrun with him, leaving Ramsay with his 500-600 soldiers to hold the castle. For Roose, this would be a win-win situation. If Ramsay defeats Stannis Baratheon in battle (which I've written on previously and think highly unlikely), he eliminates the greatest external threat to his wardenship of the North. If Ramsay loses the battle, I think Roose wins by eliminating his unruly bastard son. His new wife bears a trueborn son, and he still has the Dreadfort to hole up in and hopefully Lannister/Tyrell reinforcements to relieve him if worse comes to worse.

6000? IIRC when he passed the Moat he had somewhere between 3500-4000, a number of them being Karstark men.

In any case I can easily see Roose leaving Ramsay in the lurch. It's my personal opinion though that Roose is colluding with the Others, plenty of threads on this theory if you wanna have a look but gotta remember it's also a fantasy story with dragons, magic etc etc.