Why does everyone hate Renly?

[Minsc]

And he took his men with him. If he'd kept him there then Ned would have had more backing and might not have even required the City Watch,

Why should Renly sacrifice his men because Ned was a fool?

His plan wasn't really sensible either. You can't kick one king off the throne because he's not legitimate and replace him with someone else who isn't.

Renly's plan didn't kick anyone off the throne, instead it only had Ned and Renly's men seize Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella in the middle of the night to control Cersei. Ned would then serve as the Lord Protector and Regent for King Joffrey, aka Robert's heir.

[Jon Snow the Omniscient]

Renly was popular with both the nobles and the common people, he listened to his advisers, he had chivalry but at the same time was undoubtedly pragmatic, he understood the politics of King's Landing, and had experience on the small council.

He was, by far, the best candidate for the throne. If he wasn't, GRRM wouldn't have killed him.

The reason everyone on this forum hates him is because he's arrogant and because they love Stannis. Somehow they think that Renly attempting to usurp what he believed to be Joffrey's throne meant that he was trying to usurp Stannis... When, in reality, he had to flee King's Landing because he was an enemy of Cersei, and had no option but to crown himself because Stannis was brooding on Dragonstone and it would be too dangerous for him to allow one of Cersei's children to sit the throne.

Basically, the hate for Renly is unjustified and mostly illogical.

What common people was he popular with? Yes he listened to his advisors, in fact, he would be lucky if they listened to him. It's pretty obvious that Tarly and the Tyrells were just using him as a tool to gain power. Where did all of Renly's men come from? The Reach, that's where.

Erm, we were introduced to Renly long before Stannis. We don't like Renly because he is consistently portrayed throughout the series as an inconsistent little shit. Plus he's a spoiled idiot. While Stannis was pooling his resources and doing his best to raise an army and combat the Lannister threat, Renly was partying and marching on Winterfell with all of the speed of an enraged snail.

Ours is the fury indeed.

[PatrickStormborn]

As I said, being King is birthright, not a popularity contest. He fled King's Landing, the logical thing to do would be to join his host to Stannis' and together march on the Capital to sweep the Lannisters away. However, Renly refused to do this and insisted upon exerting his own, weaker claim to the throne and split the army. Together, they could have won at Black Water. Stannis did reach out to Renly (peach scene) and Renly told him to GTFO, basically.

No, that was not the logical thing to do because Stannis was hiding on Dragonstone and had not declared himself king. So why should Renly have joined him? For his superior army? No. Joining with Stannis makes no sense at the point when Renly claims the throne.

After this, it's too late. Neither Renly nor Stannis will back down because of their egos.

In what way would he have made the best king? There's nothing in the series to say he has a great understanding of the politics in KL. He's popular with the people, but then again so was Joffrey at certain points. Stannis had the battle experience needed and was clearly a better option as a king.

He was a usurper. He could've stayed and helped Ned to take Joffrey off the throne until Stannis was able to take over. Then, with the combined power of the north and the Stormlands, the Lannisters would've had to accept it or risk a crushing defeat. Instead, he flees because he didn't want Stannis to be the king. If Stannis was brooding on Dragonstone then the most sensible option for Renly would've been to fight in his brothers name until Stannis could join with them. Instead, he simply wanted to claim the throne for himself because he was arrogant and selfish.

Again, this is incorrect.

Renly tried to convince Ned to take Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella into his custody and rule through them, but Ned ignored his advice (good advice which clearly shows a better understanding of the politics in King's Landing than any other claimant). Because of this, Renly had to flee - clearly a good choice, considering what happened to Ned.

And why should Renly "fight in his brother's name"? He doesn't even think that Joffrey is illegitimate. For all he knows, Stannis will support Joffrey over Renly! And, had Joffrey actually been legitimate, Stannis quite likely would have supported him. Fighting in Stannis's name was therefore an illogical decision, and only would have been logical had Renly known about Joffrey's illegitimacy.

[Winter's Knight]

Renly was smart, good looking, charismatic, a good dresser, funny, gave a shit about Robert and gave Ned decent advice-Stannis ticks just one of the above boxes.

It's envy on the Stanstans' parts, it's the same reason they hate Cortney Penrose-both dared to defy the King that Ran.

[Jairion Lannister]

Can Hodor amass a hundred thousand sword to back his claim? If yes, where are they? If not, then it isn't "for the very same reason". QED.

Speaking of Baratheon brothers fleeing King's Landing... You know who really could have made a difference, don't you? And it didn't require no special effort, even no extra risk to his precious skin... if only Stannis did what he did in the first Davos chapter of ACOK a little bit earlier, not when both Robert and Ned were already dead. Instead he left everybody in the dark, doubtlessly executing that alleged sense of duty he's so famous for.

I don't doubt that what Stannis did was a bit shady. I'm not his biggest fan and I sort of dislike him as a person, although I do think he's one of the series' most interesting, grey characters. But him ignoring that doesn't make his claim any less solid, or any less worthy than Renly. I'm not trying to proclaim Stannis as some wonderful, great person. He's got his flaws and he's too stubborn, but there's no doubt he was more experienced than Renly and was a more credible king than him, not to mention his much better claim.

[Rains]

I'm really amazed by some comments here. Almost everyone in ASOIAF has the moral sense of Jigsaw from saw. It doesn't matter if he was unloyal, why does he have to be loyal? Stannis never bothered with him, perhaps if he did, he might have loved his brother and worked with him, but to Renly, Stannis was just a person who happened to be related to him. Hell, since when was blood so important? Sure, at face value and in terms of politics it is, but on a personal level? Nope, not at all.

What right did Robb have as the King in the North? Wasn't he sworn to Joffrey? Despite Joff's asshole nature, he was still his King. What right does Asha have, or even Dany whose family lost the throne?

A crappy argument, right? Ambition, avarice, greed, love, honour... they are traits found with all these would-be Kings and Queens. Condemning Renly for his own ambition when everybody else is up for grabs for the Throne; or to give in to a brother who never loved anyone, not even his kin, just because the laws of men say so? Meh, Renly would have made a great king. He knew the game well enough and would have had the Tyrells behind him.

Hell, I don't even like Renly, I don't mind him, but I certainly don't like him like others do. In fact, I'm a Stannis fanboy, but knowing just how 'wrong' things can be in Westeros, who are we to twist the fucked up norms to our own advantage?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

In what way would he have made the best king? There's nothing in the series to say he has a great understanding of the politics in KL. He's popular with the people, but then again so was Joffrey at certain points. Stannis had the battle experience needed and was clearly a better option as a king.

That last part is true, but the fact that there are disputes within families for the crown doesn't make Renly any better for trying to take it for himself. There's no debate that it should be his; he's the younger brother of someone much more experienced and battle-hardened than him.

You keep going on and on about how Stannis' prowess as a general clearly makes him a better king. It doesn't. See: Daemon Blackfyre vs Daeron II.

[Elliemental]

No, that was not the logical thing to do because Stannis was hiding on Dragonstone and had not declared himself king. So why should Renly have joined him? For his superior army? No. Joining with Stannis makes no sense at the point when Renly claims the throne.

After this, it's too late. Neither Renly nor Stannis will back down because of their egos.

I agree that Stannis is as stubborn as Renly. However, Stannis did have a large army, as well. In battle, you need all the men you can get so together, Renly and Stannis could well have made all the difference. Again, being King is birthright! You don't elect Kings; you don't hold popularity contests. If Robert's issue was illegitimate (and they all are), then Robert's next living male heir gets the crown. That's the way it goes. In this case, Stannis was the man. He didn't need to declare it; he was the next in line according to law.

[sleath56]

Elliemental: Stannis? Large army? Since when? We were talking about when Renly was still alive, remember?

Anyways, there's nothing to see here, just some Stannis fans covering their tracks that they were once RenRens. :)

[Jairion Lannister]

Again, this is incorrect.

Renly tried to convince Ned to take Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella into his custody and rule through them, but Ned ignored his advice (good advice which clearly shows a better understanding of the politics in King's Landing than any other claimant). Because of this, Renly had to flee - clearly a good choice, considering what happened to Ned.

And why should Renly "fight in his brother's name"? He doesn't even think that Joffrey is illegitimate. For all he knows, Stannis will support Joffrey over Renly! And, had Joffrey actually been legitimate, Stannis quite likely would have supported him. Fighting in Stannis's name was therefore an illogical decision, and only would have been logical had Renly known about Joffrey's illegitimacy.

Apologies on the first part. I thought Renly wanted installed as king, but mixed up that part.

But that last part about Renly not fighting for Stannis would only work if Renly actually supported Joffrey. If anything, it makes him worse. Instead of just usurping his brother when he was 1st in line, he was trying to usurp when he was 3rd in line.

[JLE]

So, Renly was popular with the common people... So was Robert.

Renly schemes for the throne by conspiracy, corruption and favouritism, promising people all sorts of things, and consistently badmouthing his brother (who, as far as we know up to that point, has done absolutely literally nothing that would make him unpopular or a bad ruler, other than "be unpopular" and "be a truly just man".

The direct implication being, the question of who has most to fear from the truly just man? And the answer being "those people who rule, exactly as Renly would have done, exactly as Cersei and Tywin are ruling, by conspiracy, corruption and favouritism, in which the law is one thing for one person and another thing for another". Hell, *Tyrion* makes a better ruler (as Hand) than Renly would have done - he actually tries to put at least SOME genuine neutrals and people of merit in the positions they deserve, for instance his getting rid of Janos Slynt (Lannister man through and through, whom both Tywin and Cersei could continue using with impunity) and replacing him with Jacelyn Bywater (a guy of actual ability, experience and honesty - a choice that nobody could argue with, unless they deliberately wanted a corrupt person.)

Stannis's answer, if the lords complain about his applying justice to them, is "Then we will make new lords". This, on its own, makes him a better candidate than Renly, who would let his "favourites" get away with anything. Notice that this is exactly how Mace Tyrell is operating as Hand, putting Highgarden men into every position of importance that he can get his grubby mitts on.

You get the impression that Renly has been slandering Stannis for *years*, building him up into some kind of monster that he never actually has been (at the time of the actual slanders). Perhaps you could see the two shadowbaby moments as being the moments he "broke" rather than "bent". But, although iron may break rather than bend, it can also be reforged, and re-tempered.

Renly was nothing more than a pretty face and a ton of schemes: his first scheme was to get rid of Cersei and put Margaery in Robert's bed. Which might actually have given Robert a legitimate heir, but could also well have led to Margaery as Dowager Queen Widow, Renly as regent to a baby for years, Mace Tyrell as Hand... And, more importantly, because of the way he operates, Littlefinger and Varys would have been left in their positions to get on with their own schemes, compared to Stannis's opinion that neither man should have been kept - both would have either fled into hiding or had their corruption very sternly investigated. (At which point Stannis would find out just how much of the kingdom's overspending was Robert being a wastrel and how much was being embezzled by Littlefinger to put *his* men everywhere by bribery.)

[Winter's Knight]

I agree that Stannis is as stubborn as Renly. However, Stannis did have a large army, as well. In battle, you need all the men you can get so together, Renly and Stannis could well have made all the difference. Again, being King is birthright! You don't elect Kings; you don't hold popularity contests. If Robert's issue was illegitimate (and they all are), then Robert's next living male heir gets the crown. That's the way it goes. In this case, Stannis was the man. He didn't need to declare it; he was the next in line according to law.

Stannis had a large army?

[Viserys - The last dragon]

I'm really amazed by some comments here. Almost everyone in ASOIAF has the moral sense of Jigsaw from saw. It doesn't matter if he was unloyal, why does he have to be loyal? Stannis never bothered with him, perhaps if he did, he might have loved his brother and worked with him, but to Renly, Stannis was just a person who happened to be related to him. Hell, since when was blood so important? Sure, at face value and in terms of politics it is, but on a personal level? Nope, not at all.

What right did Robb have as the King in the North? Wasn't he sworn to Joffrey? Despite Joff's asshole nature, he was still his King. What right does Asha have, or even Dany whose family lost the throne?

A crappy argument, right? Ambition, avarice, greed, love, honour... they are traits found with all these would-be Kings and Queens. Condemning Renly for his own ambition when everybody else is up for grabs for the Throne; or to give in to a brother who never loved anyone, not even his kin, just because the laws of men say so? Meh, Renly would have made a great king. He knew the game well enough and would have had the Tyrells behind him.

Hell, I don't even like Renly, I don't mind him, but I certainly don't like him like others do. In fact, I'm a Stannis fanboy, but knowing just how 'wrong' things can be in Westeros, who are we to twist the fucked up norms to our own advantage?

Because thats how the political "system" works in Westeros- without it = chaos. Think if every younger brother thought that what you're saying- then it would be a war 24/7. Thinking like you do is like Tywin saying that its better to kill some at a wedding- rather than the death of many in a siege, battle, or such- in the long terms it would mean that people do not trust each other and do not agree to meet and discuss peace etc etc.

[E-Ro]

Renly was smart, good looking, charismatic, a good dresser, funny, gave a shit about Robert and gave Ned decent advice-Stannis ticks just one of the above boxes.

It's envy on the Stanstans' parts, it's the same reason they hate Cortney Penrose-both dared to defy the King that Ran.

Yeah renly cared so much about robert that he tried to fucking steal the throne from his kids and kill them. If thats not care then i just dont know what is!

I dislike renly because he is among the lowest scum in the series. An uncaring asshole the tried to kill kids for a throne he had no right at all to. He had no idea the kids were not roberts, and even if he knew he still had a brother that was older and better then him. But nope, he wanted to be all "look at me im the king!" Like the clown he was.

He insults his own niece because she has a disease, his own fucking niece. He also insults briene behind her back, calling her a freak. Im actually struggling to come up with anything positive to say about him, but coming up blank.

[Jairion Lannister]

You keep going on and on about how Stannis' prowess as a general clearly makes him a better king. It doesn't. See: Daemon Blackfyre vs Daeron II.

I'd imagine being a decent general would be fairly handy if there's a threat of war against the richest and one of the most dangerous houses in the entire realm. Certainly more useful than someone who's never fought a battle in his life and just has no rightful claim to be king.

Taking the who would be the better king thing out of it, Renly's still a usurper who wanted the throne for himself without a very good claim and someone who was arrogant, selfish and self-entitled. This isn't a debate of Stannis vs Renly here, it's about why people don't like Renly. And there's clearly plenty of good reasons for it, although it'd have been interesting to see if there was more to his character if he'd been developed. Perhaps there were insecurities he hid that he didn't reveal which made him more sympathetic, but from what we see he's an arrogant usurper and easy to dislike.

[PatrickStormborn]

I agree that Stannis is as stubborn as Renly. However, Stannis did have a large army, as well. In battle, you need all the men you can get so together, Renly and Stannis could well have made all the difference. Again, being King is birthright! You don't elect Kings; you don't hold popularity contests. If Robert's issue was illegitimate (and they all are), then Robert's next living male heir gets the crown. That's the way it goes. In this case, Stannis was the man. He didn't need to declare it; he was the next in line according to law.

Stannis's army was incredibly insignificant. His only advantage was his naval power, but Renly probably didn't know that Stannis had hired Salladhor San.

Robert was not born a king. Stannis's claim to the throne comes through Robert declaring himself king. Do you not see the irony there?

Apologies on the first part. I thought Renly wanted installed as king, but mixed up that part.

But that last part about Renly not fighting for Stannis would only work if Renly actually supported Joffrey. If anything, it makes him worse. Instead of just usurping his brother when he was 1st in line, he was trying to usurp when he was 3rd in line.

It does not make him worse. He was rebelling against the Lannisters, who wanted him dead. His first intention was to take Cersei's children into custody; when Ned refused, declaring himself king was the next best option.

[Winter's Knight]

So, Renly was popular with the common people... So was Robert.

Renly schemes for the throne by conspiracy, corruption and favouritism, promising people all sorts of things, and consistently badmouthing his brother (who, as far as we know up to that point, has done absolutely literally nothing that would make him unpopular or a bad ruler, other than "be unpopular" and "be a truly just man".

Citation needed. When does Renly badmouth Stannis behind his back?

The direct implication being, the question of who has most to fear from the truly just man? And the answer being "those people who rule, exactly as Renly would have done, exactly as Cersei and Tywin are ruling, by conspiracy, corruption and favouritism, in which the law is one thing for one person and another thing for another". Hell, *Tyrion* makes a better ruler (as Hand) than Renly would have done - he actually tries to put at least SOME genuine neutrals and people of merit in the positions they deserve, for instance his getting rid of Janos Slynt (Lannister man through and through, whom both Tywin and Cersei could continue using with impunity) and replacing him with Jacelyn Bywater (a guy of actual ability, experience and honesty - a choice that nobody could argue with, unless they deliberately wanted a corrupt person.)

Further citations needed. Nothing in the text shows that Renly would not have taken care of the smallfolk-his connections to the Reach would more likely have ensured ample food for the people.

Stannis's answer, if the lords complain about his applying justice to them, is "Then we will make new lords". This, on its own, makes him a better candidate than Renly, who would let his "favourites" get away with anything. Notice that this is exactly how Mace Tyrell is operating as Hand, putting Highgarden men into every position of importance that he can get his grubby mitts on.

You get the impression that Renly has been slandering Stannis for *years*, building him up into some kind of monster that he never actually has been (at the time of the actual slanders). Perhaps you could see the two shadowbaby moments as being the moments he "broke" rather than "bent". But, although iron may break rather than bend, it can also be reforged, and re-tempered.

Renly was nothing more than a pretty face and a ton of schemes: his first scheme was to get rid of Cersei and put Margaery in Robert's bed. Which might actually have given Robert a legitimate heir, but could also well have led to Margaery as Dowager Queen Widow, Renly as regent to a baby for years, Mace Tyrell as Hand... And, more importantly, because of the way he operates, Littlefinger and Varys would have been left in their positions to get on with their own schemes, compared to Stannis's opinion that neither man should have been kept - both would have either fled into hiding or had their corruption very sternly investigated. (At which point Stannis would find out just how much of the kingdom's overspending was Robert being a wastrel and how much was being embezzled by Littlefinger to put *his* men everywhere by bribery.)

Seriously. Fanfiction, this whole fucking paragraph is conjecture and fanfiction.

[Jairion Lannister]

Stannis's army was incredibly insignificant. His only advantage was his naval power, but Renly probably didn't know that Stannis had hired Salladhor San.

Robert was not born a king. Stannis's claim to the throne comes through Robert declaring himself king. Do you not see the irony there?

It does not make him worse. He was rebelling against the Lannisters, who wanted him dead. His first intention was to take Cersei's children into custody; when Ned refused, declaring himself king was the next best option.

It wasn't the next best option. The next best option was to declare for Stannis, his elder brother. Even if Renly's hand was forced at the time, when Stannis gave him his ultimatum to let him fight for him he refused. It's clear that he was selfish, self-entitled and wanted the throne for himself.

[PatrickStormborn]

What common people was he popular with? Yes he listened to his advisors, in fact, he would be lucky if they listened to him. It's pretty obvious that Tarly and the Tyrells were just using him as a tool to gain power. Where did all of Renly's men come from? The Reach, that's where.

Erm, we were introduced to Renly long before Stannis. We don't like Renly because he is consistently portrayed throughout the series as an inconsistent little shit. Plus he's a spoiled idiot. While Stannis was pooling his resources and doing his best to raise an army and combat the Lannister threat, Renly was partying and marching on Winterfell with all of the speed of an enraged snail.

Ours is the fury indeed.

He certainly seems popular with the common people based on the Hand's Tourney in AGoT (and let's not forget the influence "Renly's Ghost" has).

I'm sure power was important to Tarly and the Tyrells. But we know that Mace and Loras both liked Renly beyond his ability to give them power.

We clearly disagree on Renly's portrayal in the books. I see an admittedly arrogant man who has flaws, but whose positive qualities make him a good choice for being king.

And let's not forget that Renly's tactic with regards to his march was actually a good idea. The riots in King's Landing caused by the march would have ultimately worked in his favour, and it meant his enemies weakened each other whilst he kept his army preoccupied. That's a good strategy.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Citation needed. When does Renly badmouth Stannis behind his back?

Oh, plenty. "I can only hope to win the north by battle. That requires stealing a leaf from my brother’s book. Not that Robert ever read one", for example. It was Renly who said it, right?