Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

[cocoalover1956]

i totally agree. never tried to say she did. just talking about the lens by which certain readers view her.

Sorry if it sounded like I was directing it to you. I was speaking to the general "Sansa betrayed her family" crowd.

[Mladen]

I would also add that Sansa acted wrongly over an infatuation with Joffrey while Ned acted wrongly over an infatuation with "honor".

This... I wholeheartedly agree with this. Ned's preoccupation with honor shifted his priorities, and he was being honorable and dutiful first, when in fact he should have protected his daughters. Interestingly, we use selfish for Sansa so easily, but Ned's sense of honor took the best of him. That ideal of doing the right thing no matter what (as Jon said to Aemon) is admirable, but truly impractical, And Ned knows better, which is the saddest part. He is not generally selfish man, neither is Sansa, but just like his decision to be honorable clouded his mind in seeing how dangerous his actions were for his daughters, Sansa's infatuation with Joffrey made her put that as the highest priority, which was also supported by Mordane, Ned's silence and everything she has been taught.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

But, you see it is not at all clear to me that she thought it was a silly misunderstanding. The excerpt you just posted has nothing at all in there about a misunderstanding that Sansa wants to fix, nothing. She wants to marry Joff and loves him and her father won't listen. That's not a misunderstanding between Stark and Baratheon that is a spoiled teenager girl who isn't getting her way.

Nobody thinks she expects going to the queen will harm her father, she expects the queen will let her stay in KL and marry Joff. No one is contesting that she has no idea what she is really doing at the time when she divulges her father's plans. It is an opinion as to whether she should have known there was more risk here than she did, but I don't think anyone thinks Sansa ever anticipated the outcome. But, that doesn't make it not disloyal or acting against the interest of her family.

One thing that is rarely discussed is the why of Ned having a seemingly very different relationship with his younger daughter, who he takes aside, and gives a very honest heart to heart talk...which he never does with Sansa. He doesn't seem as able to relate to her as he does with Arya.

I think you could be reading a little too much into this last point. Sansa is the 'good one,' Arya is the 'rebellious' one. He expects his word to be all Sansa needs because it probably always has been before. It's an unfortunate truth that the 'problem' child gets more attention than the straight laced kid.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

Wow, that's really cool. I hadn't realized that both Ned and Sansa acted inadvertently against their own blood families due to their love of someone who WASN'T, who should have mattered less - Joffrey for Sansa and Robert and Jon Arryn for Ned. Quite a paralel.

I would also add that Sansa acted wrongly over an infatuation with Joffrey while Ned acted wrongly over an infatuation with "honor".

Thanks, it took me a while to realize, but seeing so many people repeat over and over "honor vs. family", "duty vs. family", the parallel finally hit me. Though i get why so many people still see it as Ned's honor vs. Sansa's infatuation, I think overall it's a limited reading.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I don't think honor was Ned's problem, his biggest flaw was letting sympathy get in the way of common sense. He should have gotten his ducks in a row before he opened his mouth. He shouldn't have given Cersei any choice but to run. He should have warned her that the hammer was dropping immediately and she had to leave this instant. Giving her time to plan was a mistake.

As for Sansa she should have trusted that at 13 she didn't know everything. Her mistake was trusting Cersei above her own father despite everything telling her that she shouldn't. Out of the two of them Sansa is the one whose choices would have been completely different. The specifics of Ned's plans would change with hindsight but the overall objective would be to warn Cersei so she could save herself.

[mambru]

As for Sansa she should have trusted that at 13 she didn't know everything.

In my experience every 13 year old needs to have that explained to them every once in a while (and every 14 year old, and 15, and 16...etc). Ned did not tell her anything.

Also, not thirteen. Eleven, or twelve at most.

Her mistake was trusting Cersei above her own father despite everything telling her that she shouldn't.

Everything except her own dad, who (again) did not tell her anything, and indeed silently obeyed the Queen when the Queen did the worst thing Sansa witnessed herself.

Sansa is the 'good one,' Arya is the 'rebellious' one. He expects his word to be all Sansa needs because it probably always has been before. It's an unfortunate truth that the 'problem' child gets more attention than the straight laced kid.

This, exactly.

[Mourneblade]

In my experience every 13 year old needs to have that explained to them every once in a while (and every 14 year old, and 15, and 16...etc). Ned did not tell her anything.

Also, not thirteen. Eleven, or twelve at most.

Everything except her own dad, who (again) did not tell her anything, and indeed silently obeyed the Queen when the Queen did the worst thing Sansa witnessed herself.

How many POV's did we have in the 6 month trip south or the 4 or so months in KL. When you make absolute statements like this, it weakens your point. We have no clue what Ned told her when there was no POV around them. These characters do not stop interacting for months on end just because they are not subject to a POV.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

In my experience every 13 year old needs to have that explained to them every once in a while (and every 14 year old, and 15, and 16...etc). Ned did not tell her anything.

Also, not thirteen. Eleven, or twelve at most.

Everything except her own dad, who (again) did not tell her anything, and indeed silently obeyed the Queen when the Queen did the worst thing Sansa witnessed herself.

This, exactly.

Hey, I hear you. Although I'm a firm believer in the adage that you should do as you're told when in doubt. I know lots of problems can be avoided with a simple detailed explanation because its human nature to feel like you HAVE to know everything even though thats not usually true. Sansa should have just done as told, saying Ned should have explained himself to her just isn't realistic. Parents answer with 'because I said so' all the time. At least mine did, when I disobeyed chaos happened, just like it did for Sansa.

[The Fallen]

` Man, I was trying to stay away from this thread, but all this talk about Ned not protecting his daughters is bullshit. Ned broke the betrothal (a hell of a thing to do when you consider it's the king's son) and made the plans to send them back North.

I don't understand why Ned needs to be besmirched in order to talk-up Sansa. Shouldn't you be able to defend or talk-up Sansa on her own merits?

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

New here. I'd like to add my two cents to the Sansa issue.

She actually strikes me as a very bizarre child. It's like she's got this ability - better than others - to detach from reality (even to the point of detaching from her own emotions.) Most kids have very black and white judgments based on their emotional reactions to things, but Sansa's got this whole thing going on where it's like she's play-acting her life.

That's why it's easier for the reader to understand other characters like Arya better because, even when she makes poor decisions, you can feel where they're coming from. You can feel the anger/sadness/jealousy. Same with other characters...even Ned. His conflicted feelings over his affection for his friend Robert, his anger at Robert's lack of character, his wanting to do right by everyone, even when they don't deserve it. He does stupid things, and by turns neglects certain of his obligations by focusing too much on other ones, but you can understand the feelings behind his decisions.

With Sansa, it's more...cognitive. It seems to me that she consciously and determinately tries to force reality to conform to her fantasies, and when that doesn't work she either blanks it out or changes it after the fact to fit into her "narrative." She's like that girl on Portlandia who when rejected in reality floats off into her own mental happy land where she's petting a beautiful pony and forgets what's happening. Or better yet, she's like a little girl playing "house" or "princess" who gets angry at her friends for ruining her pre-planned story...only she's a bit too old for such games, she plays them 24/7 to the point that it's become her reality, and her friends are ruining the story because they're dealing with their own shitty problems in reality. But until later books than A GoT, Sansa can only find it in herself to care about her own weird fiction that no one else can relate to.

That's the difference between Sansa and pretty much all of the other characters, except Cersei, who lives in her own nightmarish "happy Cersei land."

That's not to say that Sansa is going to become Cersei. No, Sansa is fundamentally a nice girl who has empathy, unlike Cersei who has no such capabilities. It's just that Sansa DOES have a bit of a tendency towards delusional behavior. She needed Syrio's advice about "seeing what's really there" more than Arya, I think.

[Winter's Knight]

Uhhh?

[butterbumps!]

` Man, I was trying to stay away from this thread, but all this talk about Ned not protecting his daughters is bullshit. Ned broke the betrothal (a hell of a thing to do when you consider it's the king's son) and made the plans to send them back North.

I don't understand why Ned needs to be besmirched in order to talk-up Sansa. Shouldn't you be able to defend or talk-up Sansa on her own merits?

Did you read the OP? The thread isn't about "besmirching" or exonerating anyone. It's about unpacking why 2 characters who do nearly the same things for similar reasons elicit such different reactions from readers.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The difference, as many other posters have already pointed out, is the intent or motivation of Sansa and Ned.

Intent and motivation can easily be defined as the reason WHY an individual does something wrong. I think the majority of individuals would agree that intent is important in judging the final morality, or rightness or wrongness of an act. Certainly the criminal justice system would agree. It is the difference between murder and manslaughter or negligent homicide.

First I suppose we would have to identify the actual "crimes" that Sansa and Ned committed. The ones frequently brought up include:

1. Sansa:

a. Disobeyed her father by stealing away to talk to Cersei shortly before the showdown in the throne room where Ned is taken prisoner.

b. Lied by omission to Robert concerning the actions at the Ruby ford regarding the actions of Joffrey and Arya.

2. Ned:

a. Allowed Cersei to manipulate him into an early confrontation in the throne room without first ensuring that his daughters were safely out of the city.

b. Notified Cersei that he was aware of her incest and the state of her children, allowing her time to prepare a response.

First, I believe there are some extenuating circumstances surrounding all of the "crimes" listed above. None of them are cut dry. I am not going to address those circumstances, I believe that they have been already and that people are basically brushing them away because they don't care. I'm not going to address the results of the "crimes" because again, they seem to be empty defenses or attacks.

Looking at the lists above, it seems to me that the primary difference is that Ned did what he did out of a sense of duty, honor, and mercy. Sansa did what she did out of love. At first glance I suppose that makes them equal, to some, but I think that those individuals may be missing one of the main themes of the series. Time and time again GRRM has shown the destructiveness of love unyoked from duty and honor. A few examples:

Rhaegar and Lyanna

Robert and Lyanna

Jaimie and Cersei

Cersei and her children

Catelyn and her children

Jorah and his second wife

There are probably more examples but I can't think of them right now.

Finally, it's important to remember that these people are characters in a book, not real people. They did what they did because the author made them, for dramatic effect. Basically, how you decide to judge these two individuals tells more about yourself then it does about the characters. Is it preferable to do something stupid out of love, or honor, duty, and mercy? The romantic will tell you love. The unromantic will tell you honor, duty, and mercy.

That is the heart of the difference between the two. Sansa did what she did because she was a silly, love besotted, 11 year old girl. Ned was a ridgid, honor-bound, merciful fool.

[Mourneblade]

Did you read the OP? The thread isn't about "besmirching" or exonerating anyone. It's about unpacking why 2 characters who do nearly the same things for similar reasons elicit such different reactions from readers.

Butter but you are attempting to excuse Sansa her actions by suggesting that most, or, all of her choices were made out of duty, loyalty, and love. Or at the very least attempt to tear down Ned by comparison. Your goal is a simple one. To attempt to show us, that if we admire Ned we should also admire Sansa, by comparison, or or at the very least, if we see Sansa in a negative light, that we should view Ned in that very same light.

This thread has shown us that Ned and Sansa actions are similar, in that they are both pawns to their circumstance, unable to overcome their very own nature.

However it has also shown us very little resemblance in the way of Motive.

One character embraces her role as the Pawn like a moth to a flame. Becoming infatuated with the whole idea of being a princess, becoming queen, her handsome prince charming and the all majesty and pageantry the goes along with a romantic fairy tale dream come true. So intoxicated and deluded with this vision of grandeur does she become that she clings to it with every fiber of her being, desperately holding together this picture, only to discover that it is her very nature that shatters the illusion and realizing, too late, the world behind the this curtain, of her deepest desire, is hard, deadly, bleak, and as cold as winter. It is in this realization that that little part of Catelyn and Ned inside her and the skills and training that she has had since birth are the only things that allow her to survive. It IS Winter, and it is the very thing a Stark knows how to survive.

The Other character does not want any part in their role as Pawn, but is betrayed by his very own nature, the bedrock of the foundation of his core being, his love for his family, and the integrity of his honor. He stands helpless as he is witness to his core being chiseled away by other parts. Honor to the memory of a father figure, Loyalty to an undeserving King, and The duty to protect a family and arm them with the tools needed to survive. These three collide to devastating and horrible effect as he desperately tries to stay true to a nature that is spiting him in three very different directions. His own being, his very nature, that has protected him and his family all these years being used as the hammer and nails in the coffin of his own making. And in the end sacrificing everything, that he ever was, in attempt to give each member his family one last tool for survival. Winter is Coming.

Their paths are the same and they are slaves to their nature, but their motives could not be more black in white in contrast.

[David Selig]

` Man, I was trying to stay away from this thread, but all this talk about Ned not protecting his daughters is bullshit. Ned broke the betrothal (a hell of a thing to do when you consider it's the king's son)

He did? When was that?

[Winter's Knight]

He did? When was that?

Never. He was going to sneak the girls away but never actually broke the betrothal.

[Mourneblade]

Never. He was going to sneak the girls away but never actually broke the betrothal.

Robert was hunting when he came to this decision.

[Addam_Marbrand]

Ned spoke about how the match with Joff was a mistake, but he didn't break it.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

The Other character does not want any part in their role as Pawn, but is betrayed by his very own nature, the bedrock of the foundation of his core being, his love for his family, and the integrity of his honor. He stands helpless as he is witness to his core being chiseled away by other parts. Honor to the memory of a father figure, Loyalty to an undeserving King, and The duty to protect a family and arm them with the tools needed to survive. These three collide to devastating and horrible effect as he desperately tries to stay true to a nature that is spiting him in three very different directions. His own being, his very nature, that has protected him and his family all these years being used as the hammer and nails in the coffin of his own making. And in the end sacrificing everything, that he ever was, in attempt to give each member his family one last tool for survival. Winter is Coming.

:agree: Wow, you nailed it. That was what I wanted to say and that is why I love Ned so much.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Ned implied breaking the betrothal when he told Cersei to get out of Dodge before Robert got back from his hunt. He implied breaking the betrothal when he told Sansa that he would find her a better husband. No, he never formally broke the betrothal, but he was going to. There was no way he was going to let Sansa marry him as soon as he found out that he really wasn't the legitimate heir. He could have, he could have played along with the whole thing, but then he wouldn't be Ned Stark would he?