R + L = Lightbringer -- Updated with Part II

[Han Snow]

Interesting stuff. Never noticed the Viserys parallel. So strange.

[Onna Lewyys]

Woo, J. Stargaryen! Bringing the thread back to life!

Going along with those Jon/Viserys parallels, is there any evidence anyone can find that Jon might bond with Viserion rather than Drogon? The only thing I have to go on is my idea that "Viserys" may have been Jon's "true" Targaryen name.

ETA:

Quick thoughts: I also believe that Jon becoming one with a dragon is the ultimate fulfillment of Lightbringer. Now whether the dragon will be Drogon I'm not sure. Here's a little tidbit from ADWD:

Quote

Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail.

The head of the dragon resting on his tail stands for the Ouroboros, a dragon eating its own tail a symbol of reincarnation. The pear tree is the Christian symbol for man's salvation. Sing after me, On the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me, a partridge in a pear tree.

I've got a pet theory that the three dragons were woken from the three human sacrifices at the funeral pyre (I know, no duh) but their awakening was the result of a similar magic as Orell's second life in his eagle. Thus we get Drogon = Drogo (most independent, attracted tot he battle arena and the Dothraki sea, protective of Dany). Rhaegal = MMD, and Viserion = Rhaego, Dany's unborn child. The dragon must dependant on Dany, still clinging to her neck long after he had gotten too big to do so. Now if R + L = Jon then Rhaego is Jon's cousin. (interesting that that word was brought up in the description of oathkeeper and widow's wail). Viserion is associated with rebirth and the salvation of mankind.

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that Frey family reunion posted these ideas on that subject previously. (Yay for rereading!)

[J. Stargaryen]

Interesting stuff. Never noticed the Viserys parallel. So strange.

Woo, J. Stargaryen! Bringing the thread back to life!

Going along with those Jon/Viserys parallels, is there any evidence anyone can find that Jon might bond with Viserion rather than Drogon? The only thing I have to go on is my idea that "Viserys" may have been Jon's "true" Targaryen name.

I wrote a short introduction before I posted, but it's missing. Weird. The feast in Vaes Dothrak takes place later on in AGoT, Daenerys V, after Dany bathes in the Womb of the World. Schmendrick quotes that part at the beginning of this post:

They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the Womb of the World …. Naked, she stepped gingerly into the water. Irri said the lake had no bottom, but Dany felt soft mud squishing between her toes as she pushed through the tall reeds. The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it.

- AGoT, Daenerys V

There are more sun and moon references in the chapter, too.

She did not know if she had enough words, yet when she was done Khal Drogo spoke a few brusque sentences in Dothraki, and she knew he understood. The sun of her life stepped down from the high bench. “What did he say?” the man who had been her brother asked her, flinching.”

[...]

When the sun of her life reached her, Dany slid an arm around his waist.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think there is another parallel between Viserys's and Lyanna's final moments.

When the sun of her life reached her, Dany slid an arm around his waist. The khal said a word, and his bloodriders leapt forward. Qotho seized the man who had been her brother by the arms. Haggo shattered his wrist with a single, sharp twist of his huge hands. Cohollo pulled the sword from his limp fingers. Even now Viserys did not understand. “No,” he shouted, “you cannot touch me, I am the dragon, the dragon, and I will be crowned!"

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

Interesting to me because I've posted at length about how, symbolically, Jon is the blue rose. And Schmendrick's theory here is that Jon is a sword, symbolically. One thing I've learned reading this series is that things needn't be one or other; they are not mutually exclusive. Sort of like ice and fire.

ETA: This also ties into the Jon + hand references Schmendrick made earlier in the thread, since the sword and rose petals were in Viserys's and Lyanna's hands.

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Wrt to Viserion, honestly I'm not really sure about which dragon Jon will ride. I've read some good arguments for both Viserion and Drogon.

[furiousmoose0]

I think there is another parallel between Viserys's and Lyanna's final moments.

Interesting to me because I've posted at length about how, symbolically, Jon is the blue rose. And Schmendrick's theory here is that Jon is a sword, symbolically. One thing I've learned reading this series is that things needn't be one or other; they are not mutually exclusive. Sort of like ice and fire.

ETA: This also ties into the Jon + hand references Schmendrick made earlier in the thread, since the sword and rose petals were in Viserys's and Lyanna's hands.

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Wrt to Viserion, honestly I'm not really sure about which dragon Jon will ride. I've read some good arguments for both Viserion and Drogon.

The amount of in depth research that must go into finding the esoteric connections that you and Schmendrick come up continues to astound me. I think, given that it's pretty clear that GRRM uses incredibly small details to insinuate overlying plots (for example the differeces in the manufacturing of the Bastard's latest letter to Jon), that most of these small simularities are put in there for a purpose. Something that you have brought up has always struck me as one of these things. The rose petals that Lyanna let's go are black. Now when a rose dies, it would take its leaves quite a long time to turn black (also at which point they wouldn't be easily identified as rose petals). My first thought was that it was just normal decay, since Lyanna (according to a R+L=J favorable timeline) must have had Jon over a month before Ned's arrival at the ToJ, and possibly the rose was used as a frame of time. I think there is more to it than that, however. The rose seems to have some significance that I am missing. Thoughts?

[J. Stargaryen]

The amount of in depth research that must go into finding the esoteric connections that you and Schmendrick come up continues to astound me. I think, given that it's pretty clear that GRRM uses incredibly small details to insinuate overlying plots (for example the differeces in the manufacturing of the Bastard's latest letter to Jon), that most of these small simularities are put in there for a purpose. Something that you have brought up has always struck me as one of these things. The rose petals that Lyanna let's go are black. Now when a rose dies, it would take its leaves quite a long time to turn black (also at which point they wouldn't be easily identified as rose petals). My first thought was that it was just normal decay, since Lyanna (according to a R+L=J favorable timeline) must have had Jon over a month before Ned's arrival at the ToJ, and possibly the rose was used as a frame of time. I think there is more to it than that, however. The rose seems to have some significance that I am missing. Thoughts?

Thanks. It's funny, but I found the parallels between Jon I and Dany V while looking for something else. I ended up in the latter chapter and read the "That is no place for a king" line and remembered the feast in Winterfell.

As far as the timeline concerning Jon's birth, it's unlikely that it happened more than two weeks before Ned arrived at the ToJ. Are you familiar with puerperal fever?

I think there's a fair chance that the roses Lyanna was holding when she died were from the laurel that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal. Or they might be some newer roses. In either case, I've seen it suggested that they were dried and pressed.

Symbolically though, I've speculated that 'dead and black' might be foreshadowing Jon's Snow stabbing. If Jon is the blue rose, then you could say he turned black when he took his NW vows. And if he dies from his stab wounds, then he's dead. Until he's not. But perhaps I'm focusing on the dead part too much, and it's really just a hint that the blue rose turned black; that Jon became, or will become, a brother of the NW.

[Onna Lewyys]

I'm rereading Brienne's chapters in AFFC right now, and I just came upon another story of a "magic sword" that I can't remember anyone bringing up here yet.

"Every place has its local heroes. Where I come from, the singers sing of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight."

"Ser Gallawho of What?" He snorted. "Never heard o' him. Why was he so bloody perfect?"

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

Crabb thought that was hilarious. "The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What's the point o' having some magic sword if you don't bloody well use it?"

"Honor," she said. "The point is honor."

That only made him laugh the louder. "Ser Clarence Crabb would have wiped his hairy arse with your Perfect Knight, m'lady. If they'd ever have met, there'd be one more bloody head sitting on the shelf at the Whispers, you ask me. 'I should have used the magic sword,' it'd be saying to all the other heads. 'I should have used the bloody sword."

Brienne could not help but smile. "Perhaps," she allowed, "but Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe eight feet tall mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say."

Thoughts?

ETA: I myself find the bolded parts most interesting in relation to this thread.

[HairGrowsBack]

I'm rereading Brienne's chapters in AFFC right now, and I just came upon another story of a "magic sword" that I can't remember anyone bringing up here yet.

Thoughts?

ETA: I myself find the bolded parts most interesting in relation to this thread.

Well first of all this story of Galladon and the Maid is clearly meant to parallel Jaime and Brienne's story.

There are people speculating either Jaime or Brienne will end up as Azor Ahai (or a dragonslayer, though it may not be an actual dragon) with Oathkeeper as Lightbringer.

While I'm not sure it will end up true, I do believe Oathkeeper (and whoever wields it) will play a significant part, endgame-wise .

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm rereading Brienne's chapters in AFFC right now, and I just came upon another story of a "magic sword" that I can't remember anyone bringing up here yet.

Thoughts?

ETA: I myself find the bolded parts most interesting in relation to this thread.

I recall a couple of points from a past discussion about this pasage: the similarity of Galladon to Galahad; and, of course it's Ser Galladon of Morne, as in morning.

[Onna Lewyys]

I think it's interesting that the sword in the story is continually referred to by a living pronoun. Obviously swords in this world have names, but this is the only time I can remember one being called "he" or "she." Possibly lends more credence to the "magic sword" Lightbringer as a living being.

[Mithras]

The immortal Prometheus was bound to a rock, where each day an eagle, the emblem of Zeus, was sent to feed on his liver, which would then grow back to be eaten again the next day. (In ancient Greece, the liver was thought to be the seat of human emotions.)

Prometheus is the Firebringer, the savior of mankind.

“Lord Snow,” said Cotter Pyke, “if you muck this up, I’m going to rip your liver out and eat it raw with onions.”

Ser Denys Mallister was more courteous.

Cotter Pyke threatens to eat the liver of Jon raw. The sigil of House Mallister is an eagle.

Jon Snow is the Lightbringer, the savior of mankind.

[jon_fire_silver]

One thing i think we missed about AA that he doesnt cast a shadow after he reborned.

This can be compared with jon as AA reborne who has nothing common with his father.

And as a light bringer has everything the nissa nissa has can be compared with common look of jon and his mother i mean lyanna.

Ur part is superb.

This simple theory is my take.

[ArabellaVidal]

I love, love your essay, OP. This is the first time that anyone has bothered to offer a satisfactory explanation of the 'burning of the Seven' scene. This is my favourite theory now, equal only to R+L=J.

I do not understand what it would ultimately mean, but, in a way, your interpretation of Jon as the Stranger/death is reinforced by a pair of scenes that mirror each other and occur within a few chapters of each other in ACoK:

*Jon Snow, with a burned hand, holds a dagger to red-haired Ygritte's throat

*the Hound, with a half-burned face like the Stranger and with a horse called Stranger, holds a dagger to red-haired Sansa's throat

Later, Ygritte tells Jon that when this occured the Thief was in the Moonmaid etc.

Also, your solid interpretation of Jon as the sun's son brings another dream/prophecy to mind. Bran's vision of a man 'armored like the sun, golden and beautiful' has been variously interpreted as Oberyn Martell and Jaime Lannister. Would placing Rhaegar or Jon in this vision have actual meaning beside the two more obvious conclusions? After all, the two shadows clad respectively in ash and sun are standing over the two Stark girls called as different as the sun and the moon by their father. Just a thought.

I do think, however, that both Dawn and Ice are solid contenders for the actual weapon other than a dragon that Jon might wield. Ice, for the reasons you have found and Dawn because it might be made from one of the shards of the cracked moon of the Azor Ahai story.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

“Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying.”

ADwD, Dany II.

While we’re on the subject of Jon and (f)Aegon, take a look back at Quaithe’s pairings:

1st: 2nd:

Kraken and dark flame

lion and griffin

sun’s son and mummer’s dragon

First off, awesome posts. I appreciate your effort and diligence, as well as your command on mythology and lore.I think your theory has a great deal of merit, and if GRRM goes Hallmark ending with Dany and Jon, Jon being Lightbringer and Dany being AAR would work.

All that being said, in reading your post I had a major "Holy Shit!" epiphany. You sir, in trying to articulate a thesis regarding Jon=Lightbringer, may have found some of the most damning evidence on fAegon. When I first read the phrase, I had interpreted as, "Beware Victarion and red god/idk (didn't really get it at first), Tyrion and JonCon, Quentyn and fAegon." Using this interpenetration, it's easy to identify candidates, but very hard to identify any meaning. It's just a scatter shot of possible enemies that will betray you. However, assuming you're right and the Sun's Son is Jon, then their is a very clear meaning. It hit me the moment I saw your chart (quoted above). Dark flame is Blackfyre. And if you want to treat your chart as Dany's path to the last piece, then it would mean Varys/ Illyrio to Griff to the murmur's dragon. And notice the wording again. The first and the last are cloaked, the name hidden. That's because those two are by nature, false. The Griffin is who he seems and believes what he's doing is correct. If Jon is the sun's son, then he has yet to truly become that person so his name could be omitted as well. And even if the split chart doesn't equate to Dany's path to Jon or fAegon, it was a way of making sense, that every other reference warned of Varys/Illyrio's scheme.

That being said, I want QM to be the sun's son. That means Jon isn't someone she need fear :box:

[Mithras]

Just re-read the two parts. Schemendrick where are you? I sorely need Part III.

An addition to the Jon-Perseus parallels.

I think Patchface is the real danger to Shireen, not Mel/Selyse/Stannis. At the Nightfort where we already have a bloody history, Patchface might prove to be a monster. I take Shireen as Andromeda and Patchface as Cetus the seamonster.

[jon rhaegar stark]

i have a thought about nissa nissa

iam one of those who believe lightbringer is drogon and danny is AA

she satisfies everyline from the prophecy of AA literally

if drogon is lightbringer dont u think that nissa nissa is Khal Drogo ...she kills him and i believe he gave life to drogon...

similarly lightbringer gets life from nissa nissa...

just wanted to share this idea ...if it is already mentioned iam sorry

as much i want jon to be AA i dont see him killing danny for it ...i personally believe he will ride rheagal so he can be AA but he will not kill danny

[Mdoggy]

So did AA stab Nissa Nissa with his uh sword.......

[ArabellaVidal]

I just read another mention of a flying horse, I think it was in the Prince of Winterfell chapter in aDwD.

Seriously, publish part 3, please.

[Kyoshi]

I've often thought this forum is filled with geniuses. this thread proves that. the amount of dedication...the amount of stuff I missed and the people here caught...applause, sers and ladies, applause indeed.

[BearQueen87]

I just finished reading part one and two. I literally having nothing to add cause my mouth is still hanging open in surprise.

I don't even know where to start so instead of saying anything I'll just sit here in awe.

(part III please?)