If Quentyn is alive, what will he do in the WoW?

[ChillyPolly]

Quentyn doesn't feel pain?

It might be more accurate to say we don't know if he feels pain or not. It certainly seems to be the case that he does not feel any pain UNTIL after he sees himself (and specifically his hand) burning with his two perfectly functional eyes. Which is weird. His screams are ambiguous. They could be either pain or panic, as I noted. If they are pain, then he still could have survived, if he was extinguished quickly. At most, he was obviously only just STARTING to feel pain, and to be physically damaged, at the time the chapter ends.

There are two bodies, one is partially eaten and the other is burned to shit.

Correct. And we do not know for certain that either of them was Quentyn.

We know Quentyn gets burned to shit,

No. We only know that he sees himself burning, and STARTS to scream, possibly (if it isn't just panic) because he has just STARTED to feel pain. He is not known to be in worse shape than Dany, who went through a similar dragon-taming experience - minus the screaming.

Drink doesn't usually mourn? Well his friend and prince just died a fucking horrible death. Yes other friends and companions died, but the manners of their death were far more mundane AND pretty much expected.

So you conceded that it is established that Drink does not usually mourn, but you think it is plausible that Quentyn is somehow different than those other friends Drink lost that Drink did not mourn. That's fine. But that does not mean that Quentyn theorists do not have cause to suspect they have found a subtle clue. And no, their deaths of those other freinds were NOT expected, any more than Quentyn's death was expected. And as for Quentyn being especially special to Drink, the evidence suggests otherwise. It was evidently Archie, not Drink, who burnt himself extinguishing Quentyn when he caught fire. Judging by their actions, it was Archie who loved Quentyn most, but it is Drink who is making the big show of mourning.

Barristan actually accuses Drink of being a faker and trying to pull the wool over his eyes. It may be your opinion that his grief is genuine and that Barristan does not know what he is talking about. But the contrary suggestion is right there in the text, and consistent with Drink's character as the author has laid it out for us. Drink is trying to cover for their mission, but Barristan does not buy it. When Drink keeps going with his act, Archie cuts in and tells Drink to shut up and not push it - slyly letting him know that it does not matter if Barristan knows what their mission was, as long as Barristan thinks Quentyn is dead and that their mission has failed.

Quentyn's eyes didn't pop out? Well his head also wasn't in the dragon's mouth

You miss the point. The body on Dany's bed has no eyes. In Quentyn's POV, not only have his eyes not been damaged (at least not yet) but he can actually SEE what is happening to him.

The text never says Arch put out the fire.

We're given to understand that Arch extinguished Quentyn. This is actually fairly consistent with Quentyn's survival; and (for instance) it commonly happens with hair fires that the hands used to extinguish the flames suffer burns while the scalp is relatively or even completely unburnt. I don't think we know enough about the physics of dragonfire to say that Arch's burns do not come from Dragonfire (or from a hair fire caused by dragonbreath) so on that point I disagree with Skinchanging Sweetrobin.

[ChillyPolly]

1. I didn't think this was suspicious, just building tension.

2. I believe it was clear that that last set of bones was indeed a child Drogon killed. Those burnt bones were proved.

3. Obviously he didn't get burned as bad as the others. Unlucky of him.

4. Third degree burns will do that.

5. Drink is affected by the demise of someone extremely close to him.

6. The event is still in the very near past. I would imagine it is hard to talk about.

7. Dragonfire is probably the greatest motivator I can think of to recall how to retrace your steps out of the place.

8. He is holding his sword because his instinct is to protect Quentyn. A futile, but heartfelt gesture.

9. That is why his hands are cooked.

10. The guy who has trouble smiling in life finally finds the ability as he dies. The Quentyn learns to smile arc is complete!

This, of course, merely attempts to interpret the subtle clues consistent with the proposition that Quentyn is dead. This ought to be possible, if the author has been sufficiently sly with his clues. It does not prove that Quentyn MUST be dead, and that there is no reason to doubt. You miss the point with #3, as did Universal Sword Donor before you -- if Quentyn did not get burnt that bad (unlucky for him) then why does the body on Dany's bed seem to be burnt precisely that bad?

#4 is weak as well. I don't think you understand how 3rd degree burns work.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

2. I believe it was clear that that last set of bones was indeed a child Drogon killed. Those burnt bones were proved.

The text says otherwise:

Her name had been Hazzea. She was four years old. Unless her father lied. He might have lied. No one had seen the dragon but him. His proof was burned bones, but burned bones proved nothing. He might have killed the little girl himself, and burned her afterward. He would not have been the first father to dispose of an unwanted girl child, the Shavepate claimed. The Sons of the Harpy might have done it, and made it look like dragon’s work to make the city hate me. Dany wanted to believe that … but if that was so, why had Hazzea’s father waited until the audience hall was almost empty to come forward? If his purpose had been to inflame the Meereenese against her, he would have told his tale when the hall was full of ears to hear. (Daenerys II, ADwD)

“Some men have brought burnt bones.”

“Men make fires. Men cook mutton. Burnt bones prove nothing. Brown Ben says there are red wolves in the hills outside the city, and jack-als and wild dogs. Must we pay good silver for every lamb that goes astray between Yunkai and the Skahazadhan?”

“No, Magnificence.” Reznak bowed. “Shall I send these rascals away, or will you want them

scourged?”

Daenerys shifted on the bench. “No man should ever fear to come to me.” Some claims were false, she did not doubt, but more were genuine.

(Daenerys I, ADwD)

Hazzea chains the dragons, Quentyn releases the dragons, both come to the same end.

If Dany questions whether those bones were actually Hazzea, why is it wrong to question whether those bones were actually Quentyn?

[jonalame]

This, of course, merely attempts to interpret the subtle clues consistent with the proposition that Quentyn is dead. This ought to be possible, if the author has been sufficiently sly with his clues. It does not prove that Quentyn MUST be dead, and that there is no reason to doubt. You miss the point with #3, as did Universal Sword Donor before you -- if Quentyn did not get burnt that bad (unlucky for him) then why does the body on Dany's bed seem to be burnt precisely that bad?

#4 is weak as well. I don't think you understand how 3rd degree burns work.

Right. This is all speculation. I have speculated on why I think Quentyn being up and about is preposterous against another poster's claims. I think most of my answers are sound. #3 I only have speculation to go on here, so fair enough. He did get burned quite badly, just unfortunately not badly enough to die. I figured he just got a quick nostril blast of "Are you serious with that whip?"#4 Severe third degree burns completely sear shut nerve endings. Have you had third degree burns yourself or treated them?

So, by your count there are two good points out of ten, at least that you deemed worthy to respond to, and by mine, one.

The text says otherwise:

If Dany questions whether those bones were actually Hazzea, why is it wrong to question whether those bones were actually Quentyn?

Dany questioned herself in the moment. You have outlined her thought process. In the end, does she not pay out for Hazzea, feeling like no payment will ever make do? It isn't wrong to question anything, considering this is a board for our speculation, but Dany's conclusion should outweigh her thoughts leading up to it, wouldn't you say? I almost want to cite the show, as well, but I will refrain.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It might be more accurate to say we don't know if he feels pain or not. It certainly seems to be the case that he does not feel any pain UNTIL after he sees himself (and specifically his hand) burning with his two perfectly functional eyes. Which is weird. His screams are ambiguous. They could be either pain or panic, as I noted. If they are pain, then he still could have survived, if he was extinguished quickly. At most, he was obviously only just STARTING to feel pain, and to be physically damaged, at the time the chapter ends.

Screaming and vocalization are one of the few instincts for humans. There's a reason a baby cries when it comes out of the womb or when it hurts. Even if it is panic, it's assuredly pain as well.

Correct. And we do not know for certain that either of them was Quentyn.

Like I said, whether or not Quentyn is actually in Mereen is a different debate. Do you at least agree that Quentyn. or the person pretending to be him, is dead?

No. We only know that he sees himself burning, and STARTS to scream, possibly (if it isn't just panic) because he has just STARTED to feel pain. He is not known to be in worse shape than Dany, who went through a similar dragon-taming experience - minus the screaming.

Dany's experience was nothing like Q's, given that one was engulfed in FLAMES and the other was not. A "furnace wind" does not equate to a stream of flames around your body

So you conceded that it is established that Drink does not usually mourn, but you think it is plausible that Quentyn is somehow different than those other friends Drink lost that Drink did not mourn. That's fine. But that does not mean that Quentyn theorists do not have cause to suspect they have found a subtle clue. And no, their deaths of those other freinds were NOT expected, any more than Quentyn's death was expected. And as for Quentyn being especially special to Drink, the evidence suggests otherwise. It was evidently Archie, not Drink, who burnt himself extinguishing Quentyn when he caught fire. Judging by their actions, it was Archie who loved Quentyn most, but it is Drink who is making the big show of mourning.

Can't disagree with you there, but Drink just reeks of false bravado. When people like that break, they completely shatter.

Barristan actually accuses Drink of being a faker and trying to pull the wool over his eyes. It may be your opinion that his grief is genuine and that Barristan does not know what he is talking about. But the contrary suggestion is right there in the text, and consistent with Drink's character as the author has laid it out for us. Drink is trying to cover for their mission, but Barristan does not buy it. When Drink keeps going with his act, Archie cuts in and tells Drink to shut up and not push it - slyly letting him know that it does not matter if Barristan knows what their mission was, as long as Barristan thinks Quentyn is dead and that their mission has failed.

Barristan thought he was a bitch. There's nothing in that exchange that remotely implies Barristan thinks hes a faker.

You miss the point. The body on Dany's bed has no eyes. In Quentyn's POV, not only have his eyes not been damaged (at least not yet) but he can actually SEE what is happening to him.

No the body has eyes, but they've turned to pus 'His eyes were pools of pus". A stream of fire hot enough to melt steel (2500 degrees) is going to melt shit, and we clearly see a body that has melted. "So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath." Barristan describes him as being burnt, and I think we both agree that Barristan is familiar with burn victims.

We're given to understand that Arch extinguished Quentyn. This is actually fairly consistent with Quentyn's survival; and (for instance) it commonly happens with hair fires that the hands used to extinguish the flames suffer burns while the scalp is relatively or even completely unburnt. I don't think we know enough about the physics of dragonfire to say that Arch's burns do not come from Dragonfire (or from a hair fire caused by dragonbreath) so on that point I disagree with Skinchanging Sweetrobin.

[Universal Sword Donor]

This, of course, merely attempts to interpret the subtle clues consistent with the proposition that Quentyn is dead. This ought to be possible, if the author has been sufficiently sly with his clues. It does not prove that Quentyn MUST be dead, and that there is no reason to doubt. You miss the point with #3, as did Universal Sword Donor before you -- if Quentyn did not get burnt that bad (unlucky for him) then why does the body on Dany's bed seem to be burnt precisely that bad?

#4 is weak as well. I don't think you understand how 3rd degree burns work.

Because Quentyn did get burned badly.

[Cas Stark]

So, whose body do the Quentyn is alive theorists think that Selmy saw?

Where did they find an extra human around to burn to a crisp...and how was all of this accomplished in such a short duration that they could switch out the bodies?

[ApKing06]

So, whose body do the Quentyn is alive theorists think that Selmy saw?

Where did they find an extra human around to burn to a crisp...and how was all of this accomplished in such a short duration that they could switch out the bodies?

Doesnt the theory call for the Tattered Prince to be burned up Quentyn?

[ChillyPolly]

Screaming and vocalization are one of the few instincts for humans. There's a reason a baby cries when it comes out of the womb or when it hurts. Even if it is panic, it's assuredly pain as well.

I have no idea what your point is here. Whether it was pain or panic, nobody is trying to prove that Quentyn did not scream.

Like I said, whether or not Quentyn is actually in Mereen is a different debate. Do you at least agree that Quentyn. or the person pretending to be him, is dead?

No. I am saying that neither the dead crossbowman found in by the guards, nor the badly-burnt-man found by the guards, is the same "Quentyn-We-Know". The Quentyn-We-Know has left the scene, leaving behind the 2 Dornishmen; 1 dead Windblown, and 1 nearly-dead Windblown (who is probably Tatters himself). In short, it postulates that stuff may have happened after Quentyn's POV ended - an extra man got burned, and various people (including Quentyn), left the scene.

Dany's experience was nothing like Q's, given that one was engulfed in FLAMES and the other was not. A "furnace wind" does not equate to a stream of flames around your body

Umm ... the language is exactly the same in both cases ... "furnace wind". There was nothing about a stream of flames engulfing Quentyn's body. He did catch fire, yes ... but so did Dany.

Can't disagree with you there, but Drink just reeks of false bravado. When people like that break, they completely shatter.

Okay, but his courage is not really the issue.

Barristan thought he was a bitch. There's nothing in that exchange that remotely implies Barristan thinks hes a faker.

"Do you take me for a doting grandfather?" He is saying, in effect "What kind of gullible fool you take me for? You can't fool me with that nonsense". Also, in an earlier chapter, Barristan sized Gerris up as "false coin". So yeah, he definitely thinks Gerris is a faker.

No the body has eyes, but they've turned to pus 'His eyes were pools of pus".

That's a distinction without a difference. It does not say pools of pus covered his eyes, but that his eyes WERE pools of pus. In other words, there is nothing left of his eyes but pools of pus. In other words, he has pools of pus where his eyes should be. He has no lips either.

[Cas Stark]

Doesnt the theory call for the Tattered Prince to be burned up Quentyn?

How did they get the tattered prince in a timely enough manner to burn his body and substitute it for Quentyns?

[ChillyPolly]

So, whose body do the Quentyn is alive theorists think that Selmy saw?

One of the Windblown present, probably the Prince of Tatters himself.

Where did they find an extra human around to burn to a crisp...

They did not have to. A dragon burned someone for them. A dragon does not need much time, nor any particular motive, to burn someone to a crisp.

and how was all of this accomplished in such a short duration that they could switch out the bodies?

What short duration? There was time enough for the Dragons and the Windblown to leave the scene, so there was obviously time for Quentyn to leave the scene as well. Quentyn was (probably) never seriously-injured in the first place, so he left no "body" that others would need to "switch".

[Cas Stark]

One of the Windblown present, probably the Prince of Tatters himself.

They did not have to. A dragon burned someone for them. A dragon does not need much time, nor any particular motive, to burn someone to a crisp.

What short duration? There was time enough for the Dragons and the Windblown to leave the scene, so there was obviously time for Quentyn to leave the scene as well. Quentyn was (probably) never seriously-injured in the first place, so he left no "body" that others would need to "switch".

We know that it was Quentyn, not some other nameless windblown guy, who attempted to make contact with the dragons...we know it because we see it all go down from his POV.

So, you now presume, that the person who is making the overt attempt is not the one who is burned, but it's some other random guy who was just standing around while Quentyn Martell attempts to prove his worth by his 'dragon blood'....who gets burned to death, while Q, miraculously, barely gets injured at all.

And you think this is reasonable?

[ApKing06]

How did they get the tattered prince in a timely enough manner to burn his body and substitute it for Quentyns?

a while back i watched a you tube video. it was in 4 parts. it had to do with Dornish conspiracies and/or plots. I believe Quentyn being alive was one of them. It was very entertaining and informative. Worth a search if your into it. There are a number of Dornish scenarios it brings up

[ChillyPolly]

How did they get the tattered prince in a timely enough manner to burn his body and substitute it for Quentyns?

He was, presumably, already present ... one of the 4 masked anonymous, non-descript Windblown.

Tatters specifically says he likes to take off his cloak, and move around incognito. Since he is (probably) planning to betray them, he has plausible deniability if it is not known he was personally present.

The Dornishmen believe that Tatters was plotting to betray them. They do not tell Barristan how they know this; so it must be based on something that happened after the end of Quentyn's POV.

Pretty Meris, when asked where Tatters is, tells them he is with the ship that will transport the dragons. But, if the Dornishmen are right about his intentions, this must be a lie. So where is he? Most likely he is present, a non-descript fellow wearing the mask of a bronze beast.

[ApKing06]

a while back i watched a you tube video. it was in 4 parts. it had to do with Dornish conspiracies and/or plots. I believe Quentyn being alive was one of them. It was very entertaining and informative. Worth a search if your into it. There are a number of Dornish scenarios it brings up

here it is. i found it. its a good watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBfdd_xNVo

[ChillyPolly]

We know that it was Quentyn, not some other nameless windblown guy, who attempted to make contact with the dragons...we know it because we see it all go down from his POV.

There were 9 people present:

1. Quentyn

2. Gerris

3. Archie

4. Pretty Merris

5. Caggo

6,7,8,9. 4 nondescript windblown wearing masks ... one of them probably Tatters.

When the guards show up they find.

1. Gerris

2. Archie

3. A dead crossbowman,

4. A man who is burnt beyond all recognition.

Lots of people have left the scene. One of them could be Quentyn.

So, you now presume, that the person who is making the overt attempt is not the one who is burned, but it's some other random guy who was just standing around while Quentyn Martell attempts to prove his worth by his 'dragon blood'....who gets burned to death, while Q, miraculously, barely gets injured at all.

And you think this is reasonable?

Judging by precedent ... absolutely ... How many innocent bystanders did Drogon leave dead when Dany first rode him? And in Quentyn's case, the bystanders weren't so innocent - it is at least heavily applied they may have been trying to kill the Dragons.

Sometimes Dragonriders succeed in taming dragons. You cannot simply assume Quentyn failed and died because you reject any other possibility.

[Cas Stark]

Its pretty weak, but Quentyn being alive would certainly give a reason why he had a POV in the first place, since him being dead makes those chapters wasted self indulgence by the author.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I have no idea what your point is here. Whether it was pain or panic, nobody is trying to prove that Quentyn did not scream.

It means he was screaming in pain, as one is wont to do when they are on fire.

No. I am saying that neither the dead crossbowman found in by the guards, nor the badly-burnt-man found by the guards, is the same "Quentyn-We-Know". The Quentyn-We-Know has left the scene, leaving behind the 2 Dornishmen; 1 dead Windblown, and 1 nearly-dead Windblown (who is probably Tatters himself). In short, it postulates that stuff may have happened after Quentyn's POV ended - an extra man got burned, and various people (including Quentyn), left the scene.

Ah ok. That makes less sense than Ned coming back, but to each their own.

Umm ... the language is exactly the same in both cases ... "furnace wind". There was nothing about a stream of flames engulfing Quentyn's body. He did catch fire, yes ... but so did Dany.

No it's not.

Q - “Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his “face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.”

Dany - “Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her. The dragon’s long scaled neck stretched toward her.”

Note the complete lack of her saying "I'm on fire". Later when she recalls the scene, she talks about her burnt hair, but she also mentions crossbolts in Drogon breaking out into flame. Nothing says she survived anything remotely similar to what Q did. She does say "it was like the pyre" but GRRM has straight up said that was a one-time freak, magic occurrence, so it's a false comparison.

Okay, but his courage is not really the issue.

No it's not, but it does easily explain why he's acting like a sullen child who just lost a friend in a horrific accident, as would PTSD.

"Do you take me for a doting grandfather?" He is saying, in effect "What kind of gullible fool you take me for? You can't fool me with that nonsense". Also, in an earlier chapter, Barristan sized Gerris up as "false coin". So yeah, he definitely thinks Gerris is a faker.

No he thinks the "Quentyn loved her and she should have married him" argument is bullshit, and the 'false coin' falls directly in line with the false bravado. "The Dornishmen were knights, at least in name, though only Yronwood impressed him as having the true steel.” He's saying that Gerris might be a knight, but he's not a "true" knight or whatever nomenclature you want to use (ie he's a bitch).

That's a distinction without a difference. It does not say pools of pus covered his eyes, but that his eyes WERE pools of pus. In other words, there is nothing left of his eyes but pools of pus. In other words, he has pools of pus where his eyes should be. He has no lips either.

What's your point? The man is *completely* on fire. It's in the damn POV. Human skin being exposed to temperatures of 2000+ degrees will have *exactly* the types of effects on the body that Barristan describes.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Quentyn is dead, his body was on fire.

And even if lets say he didn't die he would be badly wounded to attempt flying a dragon yet alone carry out any plan.

[ChillyPolly]

It means he was screaming in pain, as one is wont to do when they are on fire.

I still don't see your point. Are you arguing; That because he was screaming, therefore he must have been on fire; or That he was on fire, therefore he must have been screaming; or that He was in pain, therefore he must have been screaming; or That he was screaming, therefore he must have been in pain.

It must be the latter, since since nobody has doubted that he was on fire or that he was screaming. But if so, the argument is profoundly illogical. Not all peope who scream are in pain, and screaming is not necessarily proof of pain. In any event, the "Quentyn is Alive" theory does not require him to suffer no pain. It merely requires him to survive.

No it's not.

The language you mention "furnace wind" is exactly the same. I concede the "all of him was burning" was not exactly the same; but it is still similar enough to give pause. "I saw her burning" says Barristan, and Dany partially confirms this in her own POV: "The fire took my hair, but otherwise it did not touch me; it was the same in Dazhnak's Pit". It is not identical, but still similar enough to suggest the possibility that Quentyn may have survived. Whether he was more or less injured than Dany is another question.

No it's not, but it does easily explain why he's acting like a sullen child who just lost a friend in a horrific accident, as would PTSD.

If you like. But as I noted, Barristan had a different interpretation.

No he thinks the "Quentyn loved her and she should have married him" argument is bullshit, and the 'false coin' falls directly in line with the false bravado.

No. What he (correctly) thinks is bullshit is that Quentyns goal was love, and not the dragons themselves; and (incorrectly?) accuses Gerris of knowing this as well, and of trying to fool him, in an attempt to hide the true goal of the mission.

If you want to speculate that Gerris was innocent of this and merely suffering from PTSD, causing him to forget the true goal of Quentyn's mission, and causing him to imagine that he and Archie had risked their lives, and their 3 friends had died, only because of Quentyn's romantic notions, and that Barristan was wrong to suspect Gerris of insincerity, that's fine. Sounds possible, but implausible.

What's your point? The man is *completely* on fire. It's in the damn POV. Human skin being exposed to temperatures of 2000+ degrees will have *exactly* the types of effects on the body that Barristan describes.

Such temperatures, engulfing the body, would cause instant death. If you're going to argue on the basis of completely made-up premises (like: Quentyn's skin was exposed to temperatures of 2000 degrees) you need to be careful not to argue yourself completely out of court.