Would a united Westeros conqueror Essos?

[ninewinter]

I think this has been discussed before.

It's almost impossible.

Essos has a larger landmass, population, and in some places much technologically advanced.

Of course if for the future Westeros, there's a sudden leap in technology like an industrial revolution, then a United Westeros "might".

But still, Essos is pretty large. Even a United Westeros might find it extremely hard to conquer three of the Free Cities.

[ninewinter]

A united Westerosi army would be far superior to anything we have seen from Essos so far, so in a land battle I believe the majority of the time Westeros would win.

I think we've seen the might of 40,000 khalassar of khal Drogo. It will wipe out the army any army Tywin, Robb Stark, or Renly or Tarly can field..

[Jaak]

I think this has been discussed before.

It's almost impossible.

Essos has a larger landmass, population,

Where is it shown that the population is larger?

[Frey Pie]

I think we've seen the might of 40,000 khalassar of khal Drogo. It will wipe out the army any army Tywin, Robb Stark, or Renly or Tarly can field..

Sorry when did we see the might of the khalasar?? When they attacked a smaller one from behind, that had wasted most of it's arrows on lambs and was busy raping peaceful people?

Ha ya 40000 Dothraki versus the 80000 Renly has? The huge amount of archers (can shoot a longer distance then Dothraki on horseback), the huge amount of spear and pikemen (horse won't charge a spear wall and if they do their dead), and the 20000 knights and riders (both heavy and light armoured) against the naked screamers? Come on

Robb and Tywins army would also destroy a khalasar. The only hope for the Khalasar is to fight on good open terrain

[ninewinter]

Where is it shown that the population is larger?

Never directly. I dont have the books with me right now, but remember Tyrion stating one of the few "towns" near Volantis were as large as Gulltown? And Volantis itself, (though past its former height) might be twice as large as King's Landing. The state of Volantis then, we can assume, might be as large as the three or four of the regions in Westeros.

Add the population of Slave'rs bay, Qarth, the remaining Free Cities, the lamb men, the Dothraki, and the far far east we are yet to encounter.

I'm almost hundred percent sure Essos has a larger pop. than Westeros. ;)

[ninewinter]

Sorry when did we see the might of the khalasar?? When they attacked a smaller one from behind, that had wasted most of it's arrows on lambs and was busy raping peaceful people?

What I mean is, at least weve encountered their army, and we've read histories how the Dothraki lay waste most of Esso after the fall of Valyria.

The huge amount of archers (can shoot a longer distance then Dothraki on horseback), the huge amount of spear and pikemen (horse won't charge a spear wall and if they do their dead), and the 20000 knights and riders (both heavy and light armoured) against the naked screamers? Come on

It depends, Longbow and crossbow might have longer range, but the Dothraki has greater accuracy.

They wont charge a wall of spears and pikes yes. They'll charge when every fighting man has seen an arm brother die from the rains of arrows.

Yep. 20,000 knights and free riders against naked screamers who has better horsemanship and as superior melee skills.

Arrows can penetrate these knights who will charge blindly at over confidence, whilst, the Dothraki, having greater war experience would surely lure them in their false attack and destroy them.

Tywin and Robb might perform better, but they\re numerically inferior. The Dothraki has greater chance to prevail against them.

[Ingelheim]

All Westeros united can rise an army of...350k? 400k?

They could conquer them, it's not that difficult.

[Frey Pie]

What I mean is, at least weve encountered their army, and we've read histories how the Dothraki lay waste most of Esso after the fall of Valyria.

It depends, Longbow and crossbow might have longer range, but the Dothraki has greater accuracy.

They wont charge a wall of spears and pikes yes. They'll charge when every fighting man has seen an arm brother die from the rains of arrows.

Yep. 20,000 knights and free riders against naked screamers who has better horsemanship and as superior melee skills.

Arrows can penetrate these knights who will charge blindly at over confidence, whilst, the Dothraki, having greater war experience would surely lure them in their false attack and destroy them.

Tywin and Robb might perform better, but they\re numerically inferior. The Dothraki has greater chance to prevail against them.

I don't think it is ever mentioned that they laid waste to Essos but often received tribute from the Free Cities. What was mentioned is how they got mauled at Quhor by the relatively unarmoured (compared to the Westerosi) Unsullied

The Westerosi commonly use longbows, meaning that the unarmoured Dothraki and theor unarmoured horses would be receiving concerted fire from Westerosi armies long before they can return it. The difference in armour also means these arrows will take a far larger toll on the Dothraki then the Westerosi.There is also nothing in the books which says the Dothraki are better marksman. In any case in battle you fire volleys of arrows, and don't pick out one person.

The Dothraki also used curved blades for close up fighting. The nature of these curved blades means that the plate and mail of the Westerosi would be great protection-they do not use blunt weapons which are better for fighting armoured foes. If the Dothraki are caught by armoured knights a huge toll will be taken. Ser Jorah is not a top tier knight but he takes out one of the Dothrakis best warriors. What would Jaime, Brienne, the Greatjon, Garlan, Loras, Sandor, Gregor etc etc, do to them?

The majority of the Westerosi armies have seen fighting in at least one of Roberts Rebellion, the Greyjoy Rebellion, the Kingswood Brotherhood and the War of the Ninepenny Kings. There are a large amount of veterans with an equal experience at war as the Dothraki. Knights train constantly from a young age in all arts of war. They are by no means outmatched one v one against Dothraki, and collectively are far stronger

The Dothraki would be a great addition to an army like Danys, but on their own they are outmatched against a skilled, trained and mixed unit they will be outmatched

[Joseph Stark]

Speaking of "not a chance" - united Essos falls for this category. Do you seriously imagine Braavos fighting valiantly to defend the Slaver's Bay's way of life?

I didnt mean all of essos i just meant that once Westerosi armies started conquering a few cities eventually a few of the remaining powers would join forces to defend themselves. It wouldnt have to be everyone and they wouldnt even need to win they would just have to make victory to bloody and costly to be worth it.

[Barty]

If Essos is united then not a chance. Westeros wont even be able to land its troops - the Essosi fleet would wipe them out. Volantis alone has a fleet as big as all of westeros combined. Victarion thought the Volantenes could field 500 war galleys and dromonds. Add to that the formidable fleets of Braavos and the rest of the free cities and we might see more than 2000 war ships. Compared to that the biggest westerosi fleet is the Redwyne fleet at 200 warships, followed by the royal fleet at 100-200 warships and then the IronFleet at 100 warships - add in the few ships from the Lannister fleet and maybe they might match Volantis alone.

Not to mention the Essosi have the Iron Bank, the faceless men, the unsullied, the GC(and dozens of other companies as well trained and equipped as any westerosi army), the legions of new ghis(who are not slaves but free men with proper arms and armor),the war elephants(New ghis alone sent 100 armored elephants to Meereen), hundreds of thousands of dothraki who will be very good at harrying troops and in hit and run surprise attacks(and while they lack armor they make up for it in pure numbers) and grrm alone knows what Asshai and its famed sorcery is capable of.

[Lointain]

Seriously, some people here mistake the dothraki for the mongols...

They aren't the same.

Mongols used the best armour they had at the time.

Mongols didn't charge like mindless berserkers against positions strongly defend by pikemen.

Mongols had generals and khans more smarter than the entire dothrakis combined.

Even Mace Tyrell can outsmart and outmanoeuveur any dothraki khalasar, and any westerosi knight (provide they had their helmet in place!) can cut out any dothraki rider.

[Beorn Snow]

Suppose a powerful Targaryen king decides to do this.

Most seem to have been to preoccupied with Dorne or Blackfyre pretenders to worry about Essos, but suppose someone like Aerys I had been more of a warrior king. Him invading Essos doesn´t sound to preposterous actually. He´s probably tired of Blackfyres hiding in the free cities.

His initial reign is weakened by the Spring sickness though ... so maybe instead we go for Maekar. Yes, why not Maekar, the Ironborn have been reigned in. Dorne is loyal, and no spring sickness. Maekar also is the type of king that wants to prove himself isn´t he? Being the youngest brother and all.

His main concern would probably be the fleets of Volantis and Braavos, as well as the golden company. So he has to start building a large fleet but without raising to much concern. Perhaps he could try allying with Volantis instead of fighting them right away? Or Braavos.

In either cas Pentos, Lys or Myr seem like logical starting points. I´m sure a Westeros army can conquer either of those. They could do it with a royal navy, and then they could give the lands to their loyalists to ensure further loyalty and riches for the king himself. Yes, they might even categorize the gains as crown lands.

But the problem afterwards becomes logistics. Soon the other city states start forming alliances. Supplies must be brought in from across the sea, and in all likelyhood Volantis and Braavos combined will beat you at naval warfare, even with ironborn solidly behind you.
So conquering the whole continent I say no. Impossible. Even with four competent expansionist kings in a row it´s very unlikely. (Consider the 100 years war).
But gaining a foothold, sure. It´s kind of odd that they didn´t in the war of the ninepenny kings. But then, that would have muddled the plot of AGOT, with actual Targaryen holdings across the narrow sea.

[Frey Pie]

If Essos is united then not a chance. Westeros wont even be able to land its troops - the Essosi fleet would wipe them out. Volantis alone has a fleet as big as all of westeros combined. Victarion thought the Volantenes could field 500 war galleys and dromonds. Add to that the formidable fleets of Braavos and the rest of the free cities and we might see more than 2000 war ships. Compared to that the biggest westerosi fleet is the Redwyne fleet at 200 warships, followed by the royal fleet at 100-200 warships and then the IronFleet at 100 warships - add in the few ships from the Lannister fleet and maybe they might match Volantis alone.

Not to mention the Essosi have the Iron Bank, the faceless men, the unsullied, the GC(and dozens of other companies as well trained and equipped as any westerosi army), the legions of new ghis(who are not slaves but free men with proper arms and armor),the war elephants(New ghis alone sent 100 armored elephants to Meereen), hundreds of thousands of dothraki who will be very good at harrying troops and in hit and run surprise attacks(and while they lack armor they make up for it in pure numbers) and grrm alone knows what Asshai and its famed sorcery is capable of.

I agree, although it's unknown how good the Volantine fleet is. Going by the army at Mereen, if some of the navys are like that then they are fairly shocking. However the Westerosi could have 600 warships-Stannis had 200 at the BW while Joff had 50 (I think), 200 RW, 100 from the IF, and I'm fairly certain that their are another hundred or so out their-Mallister has a few, Oldtown etc. Add in the thousands of smaller ships the Westerosi can use and it's a fairly significant navy, no matter who they are against.

Now I feel like the big factor is Braavos. Should their navy join in then it's bad news for Westeros, but will they fight to support the slavers on their continent? I doubt it. I know you said a united Essos though and in that case I agree, I just don't think Essos would ever be united, at least not for the first wave of invaders

[Ingelheim]

If Essos is united then not a chance. Westeros wont even be able to land its troops - the Essosi fleet would wipe them out. Volantis alone has a fleet as big as all of westeros combined. Victarion thought the Volantenes could field 500 war galleys and dromonds. Add to that the formidable fleets of Braavos and the rest of the free cities and we might see more than 2000 war ships. Compared to that the biggest westerosi fleet is the Redwyne fleet at 200 warships, followed by the royal fleet at 100-200 warships and then the IronFleet at 100 warships - add in the few ships from the Lannister fleet and maybe they might match Volantis alone.

Not to mention the Essosi have the Iron Bank, the faceless men, the unsullied, the GC(and dozens of other companies as well trained and equipped as any westerosi army), the legions of new ghis(who are not slaves but free men with proper arms and armor),the war elephants(New ghis alone sent 100 armored elephants to Meereen), hundreds of thousands of dothraki who will be very good at harrying troops and in hit and run surprise attacks(and while they lack armor they make up for it in pure numbers) and grrm alone knows what Asshai and its famed sorcery is capable of.

Braavos would never join Volantis. The biggest and most powerful city of Essos was built by slaves, and they hate the slavers.

Also, Stannis had 200 ships in BW. That, with the 100 ships from the Iron Flet, the Redwyne fleet, and the dromonds would be just enough to defy Volantis. And I'm not even counting about the Lannister or the Martell fleet.

[Ser Areo Mace]

I think a united Westeros would be able to gain a solid foothold in Essos before the Free Cities could band together. It also depends on how the Westerosi go about it. They could send an emissary to Braavos to the Sealord and say they want to help free the salves or some other BS, just but getting Braavos and the IB on your side you have a major advantage already. With that you can reinforce the Westerosi army and navy with sellswords and sellsails.

I'm not saying conquering all of Essos is going to be a breeze, but once you subdue the Free Cities most of Essos wouldn't be as big of a threat, exception being Asshai and the eastern part of Essos, and maybe Qarth and its Walls.

[Knight of the Amused Tree]

Doubtful. I would look at the European Crusades as a possible parallel. Some early success, territory and cities held for a period but no chance of long term gains being held.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Never get into a land war in Essos

[Ser Areo Mace]

Never get into a land war in Essos

but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Braavosi when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

[Wmarshal]

Never get into a land war in Essos

We have yet to see any serious land force in Essos.

[Jaak]

Never directly. I dont have the books with me right now, but remember Tyrion stating one of the few "towns" near Volantis were as large as Gulltown?

Yet Tyrion also notes lack of small towns in the Flatlands of Pentos.