Would a united Westeros conqueror Essos?

[mindchap]

If you mean Essos, as it is at the time, then yes they could probably conquer some of the cities, but as others have said I don't think they could hold them simply because Essos is so much larger than Westeros. If it were a United Westeros against a somehow united Essos, then I would go with no, not a chance.

[joluoto2]

Why would the Westerosi conquer something they can't hold. And I'm not even sure they'd get to the other side of the Narrow Sea. I think the navies of the Free Cities would defeat the Westerosi navies.

[Lord Damian]

Why? For the sake of influence and another thread that makes it sound like colonialism of Essos by Dany. Westeros, if they wanted to, could make a settlement and begin with a slow cultural evolving from the slave - City State model to a more feudalism/share cropping style. It would take time because as Dany is finding out, people who are told what do to 18 hours of the day, given sudden freedom, have a certain shock to it that takes a generation or two in sorting out. Education is essential.

A military conquest would be costly and would probably not happen as there would be concerns of neighbors back home stealing lands while the owners were away on campaign. The same problem plagued Christian Crusaders, most notably Richard the Lionheart in the Holy Land and Phillip II of France invading Plantagenet England's holdings while he was away.

Westeros would have to be unified under one rule and dragons would be essential. The Targs could have potentially done so but decided to bask in their air superiority over Westeros for about a hundred years too long for it to happen. Once the dance of dragons occurred, it was too late.

[Frey Pie]

A united Westerosi army would be far superior to anything we have seen from Essos so far, so in a land battle I believe the majority of the time Westeros would win.

The big problem is Braavos. Stay the hell away from there and free all the slaves of Essos, and they could be happy to stay out of it. The Redwyne, Iron Fleet and Royal Fleet should be able to handle themselves. Long term conquer of a place that big though would be incredibly difficult

[Nictarion]

Well, seeing how the majority of people/leaders that we have witnessed in Essos seem to be utter morons it is possible.

And Westeros is in good shape right now? Outside of the Vale, and Dorne, Westeros is quite a mess. Except for a select few, I'd say their current leadership isn't much better.

[Victor227]

If Westeros was in good shape financially and in regard to unification, it's possible. The Seven Kingdoms can put fleets of thousands of ships, everything from longships to super-heavy galleys, and they have a much more martial culture than the Free Cities, by an infinitely greater degree. The key would be focus. Picking one objective and sinking everything into it in order to overwhelm a divided defense and take a city outright. Surprise, cunning, audacity, and most of all the weather, all have to be on-side.

That being said, home-field advantage pretty much ensures the Free Cities have the advantage in any long-term conflict, and (TPatQ) spoilers

have fought Westerosi forces at sea. During the Dance of the Dragons, the alliance of the Three Daughters, Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh (named for their connection to Old Valyria), sent a fleet of ninety ships to break the blockade on King's Landing by the fleet of House Valeryion. Mind you, it's rather telling that although they won, only twenty-eight ships remained, and the alliance was already in the throes of tearing itself apart by the end of the year.

A unified fleet of the Free Cities would probably be at worst the equal of anything Westeros could put into play with everything thrown in. Add in Braavos' titanic fleet, and local assembly powers, able to put 30 ships in play a month, and Westeros is at a definite naval disadvantage. The only shot is to catch them where they're not expecting it, or with a scattered fleet trying to protect everything at once, land in force, and storm a city, then establish enough military dominance in doing so to deter a counterattack and naval blockade.

I'd say it's unlikely though. There's no way it's going to be Braavos that gets sacked, due to their location and defenses, and as long as Braavos is in play, the Free Cities have all the ships and money they could want. Their home waters, their local assembly and sellsail fleets. If the Westerosi fleets make landfall, they're still going to eventually be hit by a focused counterstrike, and it's going to be with more naval power than they have. Even being generous to groups like the Iron Fleet in terms of fighting capability, the numbers are just going to be to overwhelming to deal with. Once they're cut off from the sea, the land-based forces suffer a horrific loss of morale and determination (everyone wants to go home the second they know they can't), and from there the Free Cities starve them out and eventually negotiate an end to the conflict in their fashion.

If Westeros wanted to pull it off, they'd have to embark on a massive naval expansion first, and operate from Dorne for the most part, establishing bases on and conquering the Stepstones like Maelys did in order to get a foothold equal to the Free cities. In the end it would come down to the political maneuverings of the leaders. If the Free Cities allied together, and if that alliance held together (though Essosi alliances are wont to fall apart), if Westeros really got its act together and devoted its full energy and effort to the conquest... there's far too many 'ifs' in the equation.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

No. Essos is like 10xs the size of Westeros. It's like England taking on all of Europe.

Europe? OK, that didn't happen. But at its peak, British Empire covered around one-quarter of our globe (counting only dry land, not oceans, obviously). A little while earlier, Ancient Rome conquered big chunks of Europe, Middle East and Northern Africa. To name only a couple.

In-universe, we have first Valyria conquering Essos, then for an encore, tiny Dragonstone subduing Westeros. With dragons, but still. Size itself is not that significant a factor.

[Dany Girl]

Europe? OK, that didn't happen. But at its peak, British Empire covered around one-quarter of our globe (counting only dry land, not oceans, obviously). A little while earlier, Ancient Rome conquered big chunks of Europe, Middle East and Northern Africa. To name only a couple.

In-universe, we have first Valyria conquering Essos, then for an encore, tiny Dragonstone subduing Westeros. With dragons, but still. Size itself is not that significant a factor.

Yes, over time. England colonized a large part of the work, and over time Westeros might be able to do the same. I already said that. But to conquer in a few short years? Hell no. Essos is too big and has many armies that will unite because they aren't going to want their way of life destroyed.

[Jaak]

If Braavos were made a smoking ruin by dragonfire, precisely where would the fugitives rally for guerrilla war? Especially since wooden ships burn, and outside the small Braavos lagoon, there does not seem to be an extensive wooded archipelago where boats can be built at any concealed cove.

[margaerydos]

- if a westerosi knight (loras, obvs) were to defeat several khals in single combat, would he win their khalasars?

targeted dothraki raids could prevent the free cities &c from uniting in time to present an effective counter to any invasion.

- wildfire is the decisive factor when comparing naval strength. a small squad of fireships or defensive array of barges would be enough to destroy a much larger fleet.

-much of the terrain is ideal for cavalry charges, and unsullied (badasses that they are) are still as susceptible to flanking as any other infantry. if they were to face a charge in a situation where they couldn't quickly form a shield wall, they'd be doomed against heavily armored knights.

three questions:

are the wildlings involved?

with whom would the golden company side?

obviously conquered cities would contribute their resources to the effort, right?

[Wmarshal]

I was more along the lines of promise freedom to slaves to cause mass uprising, because the free cities have crazy dependence to their slaves. Then marry second sons daughters and knights to local.nobles. Banish those who don't comply to the wall. Those who are banished family income goes to the war effort. I don't imagine it happen in a year though. Oh and size it is more like England to France to truthful.

[Michael Herman]

Many of the free cities could be easily conquered in my opinion, especially if the wise masters of Yunkai are any indication to the strategic genius of the ruling classes of Essos, the problem is, they would never hold it.

Think about how various english kings were always trying to conquer bits of France, they often won some big battles and fought well (not to say the French didn't win battles of fight well), and would take large amounts of land, but they couldn't maintain it, because the logistics of maintaining a colony across an ocean in the middle ages were just too much.

Also, I doubt any westerosi lord or knight would ever venture further east than the free cities for war.

[GallowsKnight]

What I posted in a similar thread:

Conquest of Essos doesn't have to take form in a grand and sudden invasion.

It starts by taking the Royal Fleet and a few thousand Stormlanders, Dornishmen and Reachmen to clear the Stepstones of Pirates. Where possible you leave wooden keeps and second sons to hold these new lands for you. So then you've got a hold on the North/South trade in Essos. You can keep it safe from pirates for a small cost to every ship that passes through.

You then gather a second army, really only has to be ~20,000 in total made up from all Kingdoms and you offer it to the losing side in a Myr/Tyrosh/Lys conflict. As long as they swear to the Iron Throne and renounce slavery. With them as a Vassal and the next two cities conquered with puppet leaders set up you have the Disputed lands. To control it you do what the Normans did and build a crapload of castles, they don't have to be Winterfell or Storm's End. Just motte and baileys all across the disputed lands, allowing newly raised knights to protect the small folk from Dothraki raiders and control the landscape through a minimal amount of men.

At this point you ally with Braavos. Give them exclusive tax-free rights through the stepstones, emphasis your anti-slavery agenda, take huge loans from the Iron Bank and encourage intermarriage with your nobility. Over time this will make Braavos (and by extension Lorath and Pentos) more like an antonymous parts of your empire.

Give this maybe a generation or so to become secure. Then wait for the right time to attack Volantis, it having already become affected by the decrease in slavery profits and rumblings of uprising. If necessary give the Ironborn crown approval to raid around Volantis. Then when the invasion comes it's a mixture of Westerosi and Essosi both on land and Sea.

If you can secure Volantis, I imagine you could bring Qohor and Norvos around with a mixture of diplomacy and threats.

Also a Dothraki genocide would probably occur during all this time. The first couple of battles would be slaughters because the Westerosi could pretend to be keeping the tradition of giving gifts, let them get close and attack them all women and children included.

[Pod The Impaler]

If Westeros was in good shape financially and in regard to unification, it's possible. The Seven Kingdoms can put fleets of thousands of ships, everything from longships to super-heavy galleys, and they have a much more martial culture than the Free Cities, by an infinitely greater degree. The key would be focus. Picking one objective and sinking everything into it in order to overwhelm a divided defense and take a city outright. Surprise, cunning, audacity, and most of all the weather, all have to be on-side.

A unified fleet of the Free Cities would probably be at worst the equal of anything Westeros could put into play with everything thrown in. Add in Braavos' titanic fleet, and local assembly powers, able to put 30 ships in play a month, and Westeros is at a definite naval disadvantage. The only shot is to catch them where they're not expecting it, or with a scattered fleet trying to protect everything at once, land in force, and storm a city, then establish enough military dominance in doing so to deter a counterattack and naval blockade.

I'd say it's unlikely though. There's no way it's going to be Braavos that gets sacked, due to their location and defenses, and as long as Braavos is in play, the Free Cities have all the ships and money they could want. Their home waters, their local assembly and sellsail fleets. If the Westerosi fleets make landfall, they're still going to eventually be hit by a focused counterstrike, and it's going to be with more naval power than they have. Even being generous to groups like the Iron Fleet in terms of fighting capability, the numbers are just going to be to overwhelming to deal with. Once they're cut off from the sea, the land-based forces suffer a horrific loss of morale and determination (everyone wants to go home the second they know they can't), and from there the Free Cities starve them out and eventually negotiate an end to the conflict in their fashion.

This of course assumes Braavos is willing to ally with the other Free Cities against Westeros.

I get the feeling they have nothing much in common with the rest. Braavos was established as a refuge against Valyria, and seem to have warred succesfully against Pentos in recent years.

The issue of slavery divides them from the other Free Cities, especially Volantis.

As I and others have suggested, make Braavos an ally (for the naval element will be important), and use them to counterbalance the power of the others.

[Joseph Stark]

If by united you mean completely united more like the modern day united states with no inter conflict to worry about or mountain clans or other threats that would require them to leave a portion of their strength behind and no rival lords stabbing each other in the back or looking out for their own advancement and if you are are talking about a unified westeros conquering a divided essos one city/people at a time then my answer is yes. But a united westeros against a united esso then not a chance. They might have some initial success agains a few cities and possibly make some temporary allies by agreeing to fight their mutual enemies but once the other groups figured out what was going on and started to realize they were getting too powerful they would band together and drive them back into the sea. Im kind of picturing Nazi Germany's conquest of europe in WW 2

[joluoto2]

I would once again like to point out that comparing armies is useless before we compare navies. The Westerosi need to get to the other side of the Narrow Sea. And I'm pretty sure the combined naval strength of the Free Cities beat the combined naval strength of Westeros.

[Lointain]

Of course it is possible, dificult, but absolutely possible.

If Alexander did it against an huge empire, well developed, very rich, wiht some of the major population and cultural centres of that time and with a centralized government, that have at acess to huges resources and great number of men, the Seven Kingoms (with a good leadership, of course) can do the same.

[Jaak]

I would once again like to point out that comparing armies is useless before we compare navies. The Westerosi need to get to the other side of the Narrow Sea. And I'm pretty sure the combined naval strength of the Free Cities beat the combined naval strength of Westeros.

The Narrow Sea is fairly long and narrow, and Westeros has sheltered, defensible ports on Narrow Seas. Deal with Braavos, deal with Lorath (like intimidate them with fate of Braavos and offer them tolerable terms) and you have little left on Shivering Sea side. Then put up a dragon blockade between Dragonstone and Pentos. Any navies of Myr, Tyrosh, Volantis or beyond would, at least in fair weather, be spotted by riders flying back and forth at a mile or two height - then burned by dragons swooping down. When the dragon blockade needs to be lifted because the dragons need rest or are busy fighting on land or do not have a perfect view in foul weather, retreat your navies behind land defences of the ports in Fingers, Gulltown, Trident, Blackwater etc, and Braavos and Pentos on the other side, and when the weather clears, clear the northern Narrow Seas again and ferry more land forces over. The ships may scatter far and wide in southern seas, but meanwhile the Westerosi army marches south overland and takes their ports.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

If by united you mean completely united more like the modern day united states with no inter conflict to worry about or mountain clans or other threats that would require them to leave a portion of their strength behind and no rival lords stabbing each other in the back or looking out for their own advancement and if you are are talking about a unified westeros conquering a divided essos one city/people at a time then my answer is yes. But a united westeros against a united esso then not a chance.

Speaking of "not a chance" - united Essos falls for this category. Do you seriously imagine Braavos fighting valiantly to defend the Slaver's Bay's way of life?

[joluoto2]

Speaking of "not a chance" - united Essos falls for this category. Do you seriously imagine Braavos fighting valiantly to defend the Slaver's Bay's way of life?

No, but they'd have the wish to stay independent in common.