How would you handle the Sons of the Harpy-situation?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

yes... she'd be better off reinstating slavery, with strong rights for the slaves.

She doesn't have to reinstate slavery. Her issue is that she confuses the means with the ends. Abolition is a means; the end is self-actualization, dignity, economic opportunity, etc. Abolition is not an end unto itself. A person does not automatically become secure, safe, employed, etc. upon manumission. That's the crux of it: She waved her hand and declared everyone to be free only to find out that these people still need security, stability and economic opportunity that she has up to now been unable to provide.

[Hrafntýr]

I agree with those who say that Dany would need to establish that it is possible to live a secure life in a Meereen without slavery, a big part of which is putting in place an alternate economy.

Although Meereen's major export has been slaves, it does appear that there are skilled laborers and craftspeople. But where would be the market for their products, were Dany to put money into developing industry (or banking, another possibility, given the apparent wealth of the Meereenese nobility)? It strikes me that Dany could really have used some inter-city-state diplomacy, to set up some trade agreements. But ton this point there seems to be an issue with Meereen's geographic location: the city can very effectively be blockaded by hostile city-states. Ser Creighton raised an interesting question way back in the earlier days of this thread, namely that of why Yunkai and other slave states are so up in arms about the freeing of Meereen, since it effectively gives them a monopoly on the slave trade. Perhaps they fear that Dany will target them next? Would Dany be willing to sign a treaty that promises to let them carry on in their slave trade without fear of future attack, in return for free passage for her ships in and out of Slaver's Bay?

[PatrickStormborn]

I think a lot of people here are forgetting that Dany wasn't just facing an insurgency - she was also facing a siege. She had to compromise with the sons of the Harpy in order to break the siege.

Isn't there evidence that not all slavery in Slaver's Bay is like that either, though? We see people living as tutors or or stewards or courtesans or artisans or whatever who are slaves but who seem to enjoy a relatively decent standard of living, such that at least some of them try to sell themselves back into it. I'm not saying this to excuse slavery or lessen its impact, just noting that slavery exists on a spectrum even within the story. Does the tutor-slave live worse off than Dany's unpaid-but-not-a-slave ditch digger?

Uhhhh this is some grade A bullshit. There is no evidence in the text that there are slaves trying to sell themselves BACK into slavery. In both situations where selling people into slavery arises after Dany's conquest, the context suggests that they were not freed slaves but free citizens. Certainly, Xaro's friend was a merchant and not a slave. And at the end of ASoS Daario describes the people trying to sell themselves as slaves as "gently born", which I'm sure you know does not mean "slave"...

GRRM deliberately highlights the cruelty and brutality of slavery in Slaver's Bay. The Unsullied were castrated and forced to kill babies, Yunkai trains sex slaves who are victims of systematic child abuse and rape, and we're introduced to Meereen after they crucify 163 slave children just to taunt Dany's abolition ideals.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Although Meereen's major export has been slaves, it does appear that there are skilled laborers and craftspeople. But where would be the market for their products, were Dany to put money into developing industry (or banking, another possibility, given the apparent wealth of the Meereenese nobility)? It strikes me that Dany could really have used some inter-city-state diplomacy, to set up some trade agreements.

This is where what she did in Astapor is coming back to bite her in the ass, I reckon. Namely, nobody is going to trust her when it comes to treaties and business dealings, because she's shown herself to be untrustworthy, even if it was for a "good cause."

One could argue that backstabbing slavers does not make one inherently untrustworthy. But that's cold comfort when your city now relies on many of its neighbors for economic cooperation.

[Hoosier427]

She can't execute the children because she executed the 163 masters for doing the same thing. Which is really the start of all her troubles there when he executed the masters. At this point other than killing off or exiling the entire population, she gonna have to wait until someone makes a mistake and gets themselves caught. i do have a feeling though some things are about to change do with the ironborn arriving. Also someone needs to tell Dany's that while she is queen, she doesn't have to rule everything by herself. She needs a solid strong politically motivated hand to take some pressure of her. Let that person deal with this mess. This has been a mistake her advisors have made. Barry being her hand after she leaves isn't good enough for me. Although I like him for being a true knight imo he isn't enough of a politican to do the job. So my solution for this mess is hire a solid hand and let them deal with it and wash my own hands of this mess.

[Uncia]

She doesn't have to reinstate slavery. Her issue is that she confuses the means with the ends. Abolition is a means; the end is self-actualization, dignity, economic opportunity, etc. Abolition is not an end unto itself. A person does not automatically become secure, safe, employed, etc. upon manumission. That's the crux of it: She waved her hand and declared everyone to be free only to find out that these people still need security, stability and economic opportunity that she has up to now been unable to provide.

yes.... well either she has to come up FAST with an entirely new system (does she have the intellectual capacity for that ?), or she has to offer an upgraded version of the old system.

[The Dragons Hand]

I'll just say "Carry out my threats" because I'm pretty sure I'm not legally allowed to say what I would do.

[Hrafntýr]

This is where what she did in Astapor is coming back to bite her in the ass, I reckon. Namely, nobody is going to trust her when it comes to treaties and business dealings, because she's shown herself to be untrustworthy, even if it was for a "good cause."

One could argue that backstabbing slavers does not make one inherently untrustworthy. But that's cold comfort when your city now relies on many of its neighbors for economic cooperation.

Very good point, though one wonders if non-slaving city-states, and merchants therein, might not be willing to enter an agreement, if she could arrange for non-interference on the part of the slave states. But you're right, they've every reason not to trust her.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Very good point, though one wonders if non-slaving city-states, and merchants therein, might not be willing to enter an agreement, if she could arrange for non-interference on the part of the slave states. But you're right, they've every reason not to trust her.

What about Meereen's economy is so valuable, that people in Pentos (which is the nearest non-slaving city in Essos) would be interested in?

[TimJames]

Her problems really start in Astapor, so let's begin there.

If I were in her position, I would not order the unsullied to murder every rich person in the city. I would simply order them to take them hostage and herd them into the Plaza of Punishment. Once that is done, I will free all the other slaves in the city and tell them they are free; I will then have the slave owners stand trial and call up their former slaves as witnesses. Any who was identified as having raped or murdered slaves will be put to death. The rest of the slave owners will be stripped of most of their property (it will be redistributed to their slaves as payment for years of service). There is no way in hell I am leaving Astapor under an independent counsel; I will allow the freed slaves to nominate possible Lord-Mayor to rule in my name and I will choose the one who is least likely to bring back slavery or do anything horrible. I will keep a trusted follower here to keep an eye on said Lord-Mayor.

In Yunkai, I would do the same thing Daenarys did in the book only instead of leaving the city alone I would again pick a Lord-Mayor to rule in my name. Again I'll leave behind someone I trust personally to ensure he does not do anything evil.

Finally, I'll take Meereen the same way Daenarys did in the book and will crown myself Emperor/Empress of the New Ghiscari Empire. To make this claim official, I will conquer the kingdom of New Ghis to unite the Ghiscari people.

Once that is done, it is time for legislation.

Slavery is completely abolished, and the only people who shall ever be in chains are criminals who have been proven guilty after standing before a magistrate. Even then their servitude shall only last between one to two years. These indentured servants will be owned by the crown directly, and rented to those who can afford them.

From now on, the only crimes punishable by death are murder, attempted murder, rape, slave trading and treason. And even these crimes can be meditated to indentured servitude if the guilty confesses of his own free will (with the exception being rape and slave trading).

A tradition of kinghthood will be raised here to ensure a steady supply of soldiers. Ser Semly will handle this, and hopefully within a few generations there will be a steady supply of knights.

With the nights being cavalry, I will have the unsullied train freemen to be lockstep infantry. The training will be much less lethal, and these new infantry will not be eunuchs, but they should work easily enough.

Now it is infrastructure time.

Rebuild the crumbling walls of the three major cities in my empire. This will make them easier to defend.

I will also rebuild the ruined city of Old Ghis.

Now it is time for succession.

Finally, marry someone I can trust (matrilineally if female) and try to have at least two sons (witches are notorious liars). I will then use my kingdom to take Westeos.

My first son will inherit The Iron Throne and Rhaegal as well as command of the StormCrows. My second son will inherit the Ghiscari Empire and Viserian as well as command of the Second Sons (both mercenary companies will be reformed to act as Varangian Gaurds to their respective kingdoms).

Drogon will be set free over the middle of the Dothraki Sea.

[Hrafntýr]

What about Meereen's economy is so valuable, that people in Pentos (which is the nearest non-slaving city in Essos) would be interested in?

Sorry, the comment was predicated on earlier-stated ideas upthread about economic development of Meereen's skilled tradespeople/artisans (and also possibly banking, if it were possible to get the Meereenese nobles with their wealth to cooperate, or alternatively if Dany confiscated their wealth). Of course we know next to nothing about what sorts of skills the people of Meereen possess, but the idea was that some effort might be made to at least begin to develop an alternate economy, part of which might be to send out feelers for what markets might exist outside Meereen, just a minor point, really.

Edit: I just want to add that I was glad that this thread was brought back from the dead, because there are some really excellent analyses in here (betwixt and between the "burn them all!" type posts). I especially appreciated all the suggestions about intelligence gathering, the point that she should have entertained multiple suitors for her hand in marriage as a way to bring into the open various divisions in Meereen, as well as the poster who suggested she might have employed Tyrion's trick of telling three different things to Reznak, Skahaz and the GG in order to follow the lines of communication. And special praise to Apple Martini for sticking so doggedly to the terms laid down by the OP, which really helped to focus the discussion and keep things realistic.

[A Man Has Said]

Since it's almost certain that the Sons of the Harpy are backed by the highborn families of Meereen who made their fortunes in the slave trade, I would:

Get a big jar or whatever similar container.

Write the names of each family on a token of some kind, and put all the tokens in a jar.

Every time an SotH attack occurred in the city, a family's name would be taken from the jar at random.

All of the family's property would be confiscated.

All adult members of the family would be shipped far from Meereen (say Quarth) to be sold into slavery.

Children would be given to poor families to learn trades like millinery or baking.

The confiscated property would be sold and converted to currency which would be distributed (I can't give details how) amongst the population.

(some percentage going to the victims' surviving family perhaps?)

Dany's much bigger problem is that she has destroyed the city's economy without having anything to replace it.

Common economic wisdom is that if you put some cash into circulation the people themselves will find ways to provide goods and services in exchange.

It's not a bad idea to try to have the solution for one problem simultaneously solve another.

Though I daresay the primary purpose of deterring SotH attacks would work after one or two families had been eliminated.

..thus drying up the supply of confiscated property and money.

[Brightstar_]

Since it's almost certain that the Sons of the Harpy are backed by the highborn families of Meereen who made their fortunes in the slave trade, I would:

Get a big jar or whatever similar container.

Write the names of each family on a token of some kind, and put all the tokens in a jar.

Every time an SotH attack occurred in the city, a family's name would be taken from the jar at random.

All of the family's property would be confiscated.

All adult members of the family would be shipped far from Meereen (say Quarth) to be sold into slavery.

Children would be given to poor families to learn trades like millinery or baking.

The confiscated property would be sold and converted to currency which would be distributed (I can't give details how) amongst the population.

(some percentage going to the victims' surviving family perhaps?)

Dany's much bigger problem is that she has destroyed the city's economy without having anything to replace it.

Common economic wisdom is that if you put some cash into circulation the people themselves will find ways to provide goods and services in exchange.

It's not a bad idea to try to have the solution for one problem simultaneously solve another.

Though I daresay the primary purpose of deterring SotH attacks would work after one or two families had been eliminated.

..thus drying up the supply of confiscated property and money.

"The beauty of Quarth is legendary..."

"It's pronounced Qarth"

[shadow282]

Rolling boys in honey, fish, and blood them throwing them to a bear as a typical form of entertainment. Nailing children to posts to send a message. Stringing people up and using them for target practice. Unruly slaves being flayed alive in Astapor. And yes, the unsullied.

Other than the American/Trans-Atlantic slave trade and the late Roman Republic, most real life forms of slavery were much more humane than this.

Early Roman slavery:

Throwing slaves in gladiator rings with no chance of success=common

Crucifixion=Common as opposed to what sounds like a one-time thing to piss of Dany

Punishing runaway slaves in brutal ways= common

Punishing resisting slaves in brutal ways= common

In addition, slaves were legally required to be tortured before being in court and sent in mines in brutal conditions to die.

Sounds more brutal to me.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany's much bigger problem is that she has destroyed the city's economy without having anything to replace it.

Common economic wisdom is that if you put some cash into circulation the people themselves will find ways to provide goods and services in exchange.

That isn't Dany's problem. The problem is that no cities will trade with Meereen unless she makes peace with them, and she can only do that if she has the support of everyone in Meereen. It's a cyclical problem; she needs a good economy to win the Meereenese, but she can't win trading partners unless she already has the support of the Meereenese.

Ultimately, Dany made the mistake of leaving an enemy in her rear. It's not a mistake she will ever repeat again, I am sure.

[shmewdog]

Heads, Spikes, Walls

[TimJames]

Early Roman slavery:

Throwing slaves in gladiator rings with no chance of success=common

Crucifixion=Common as opposed to what sounds like a one-time thing to piss of Dany

Punishing runaway slaves in brutal ways= common

Punishing resisting slaves in brutal ways= common

In addition, slaves were legally required to be tortured before being in court and sent in mines in brutal conditions to die.

Sounds more brutal to me.

However, early roman slaves were never castrated at the age of five and forced to train to be unsullied.

In the Ancient Roman Empire, there were actually several ways a slave could legally earn his or her freedom. A slave with education could earn money to buy his or her freedom, and it was not uncommon for slaveowners to free their slaves in their will. One example is Marcus Tullius Tiro, who was a slave to Cicero. Cicero set him free as a reward for good work, and Tiro saved enough money to retire in the countryside. The reason for this could be that the Roman Empire constantly got slaves from its conquests and as a result the slaveowners could afford to free slaves who served them well because buying new ones was affordable.

As for gladiators, the slaves there could actually be set free if they put on a good enough show. Not that all gladiators were slaves: some free men actually volunteered to be gladiators so as to earn money/win glory.

[Ser Uncle P]

Heads. Spikes. Walls.

Then gracious terms to any Mereenese nobility who confess voluntarily

[SerTonyStark]

During my latest reread I have once again landed at aDWD and while reading Dany's first chapter, it struck me that she really is in a diffcult position. I know that she owes the whole situation to herself, but still it got me thinking how I would try to resolve the whole Sons of the Harpy situation, while still staying (or rather becoming) the respected King (Queen in Dany's case obviously) of Meereen. Is she being too soft? Is she being too hard? Should she do as the Shavepate suggests and kill the sons of rich families whenever one of her freedmen is killed by the Sons of the Harpy? If she does this it might provoke an even bigger, more open rebellion, if she does nothing, she proves herself weak.

What would you do to try and resolve the situation at this point?

Edit: I should add that just leaving Meereen as will probably be suggested should not be considered an option, as it doesn't really fix the problem, it just runs from it.

I've always considered the Mereenese knot as an allegory for American involvement in the middle east, another very difficult political and military quagmire. Ultimately I think it will lead to Dany giving up her nation building ideas, serving some blood and fire for wrongs done directly to her and her people and then peace out back to Westeros having killed enough time (without a five year gap) for her dragon's to grow.

[Brightstar_]

I've always considered the Mereenese knot as an allegory for American involvement in the middle east, another very difficult political and military quagmire. Ultimately I think it will lead to Dany giving up her nation building ideas, serving some blood and fire for wrongs done directly to her and her people and then peace out back to Westeros having killed enough time (without a five year gap) for her dragon's to grow.

Well that's kinda what her whole epiphany in the Dothraki Sea was about if you ask me.