How would you handle the Sons of the Harpy-situation?

[Dukhasinov]

Danny`s campaign in Slavers` Bay seems, at first, like an allegory to America`s involvement in the Middle East, (So, for that matter, does Starship Troopers, which came out years before 9/11) but the analogy doesn`t stand up to much scrutiny. America`s counter-insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan is fundamentally different from Danny`s Mereenese quagmire, in that the U.S. is not trying to impose her rule over the middle east, but is trying to foster a workable government that can stand on its own in the region. Danny is trying to assert herself as a direct ruler over Meereen, so it is really more like Alexander`s conquest of Persia.

Alexander knocked the capstone off of the Persian Imperial hierarchy and installed himself in place of the king. He largely left local institutions alone, and paid respect to his new subjects by emulating the trappings of Achaemanid rule and preserving their administrative and cultural institutions. He co-opted the existing Medo-Persian aristocracy, giving them no real reason to prefer Achaemanid rule over his own. This worked so well that he was able to take the bulk of his army, as well as himself, away from his new conquests and continuing east into Bactria and India, confident in the stability of the new order in Persia. Danny makes several steps in this direction, by adopting the tokar dress, re-instituting the fighting pits, and marrying a local noble. But she is paying lip service to the trapping of Meerenese society while still being determined to uproot its core socioeconomic institution, so these gestures are ultimately pointless.

Danny`s approach in fundamentally different. She cannot accept and accommodate Meerenese society as it is. The institution of slavery in irreconcilable to her, and its dismantling necessitates the dismantling of the cornerstone of Meerene`s economy and their entire social hierarchy. In this way, I suggest the Bolshevik takeover of Russia as a better parallel of Danny`s position. She cannot co-opt the local aristocracy, because her reforms are an existential threat to the very foundations of their power and wealth. It`s not simply that they WILL never accept her rule. They CANNOT accept it for their very survival.

Let`s go back to Aegon the Conqueror. He overthrew or subjugated all of the native rulers of the 7 Kingdoms, but he left alone the core political and economic institutions of Westeros. He continued the native tradition of Feudalism, adopting the 3 headed dragon as the sigil for his "House," reconfigured as a feudal dynasty familiar to his new subjects. Most importantly, he submitted to the spiritual authority of the native Faith if the Seven, being anointed as a lawful king by the continent`s dominant religious authority. Imagine if Aegon had found the feudal system unacceptable and insisted on remaking Westeros as a republic, like the fallen Freehold of Valyria? This would have greatly raised the stakes for the great Lords. Would Torhen Stark still have bent the knee, knowing that he would be stripped of his lands, wealth and titles, his subject to be made free voting citizens? In this case, Aegon would have been an existential threat to the great Houses of Westeros, rather than merely a threat to their dominance and independence. They would have no choice but to fight Aegon to their last breath, dragons or no.

Many people have suggested hunting down the leaders of the insurgency, or instituting a "Tit-for-Tat" system of reprisals for terrorist attacks, but these are all half-measures. Danny cannot identify and hunt down the leaders of the Sons, and even if she could, new ones would rise in their place. What she CAN do, and what she MUST do, is identify and neutralize the very DEMOGRAPHIC that supports the Sons of the Harpy. She has to wipe out the Meerenese aristocracy as a social class and societal institution, through a campaign of exile, execution, confiscation, and imprisonment. Just as the Bolsheviks, in order to fundamentally re-create Russian society, knew they had to break the back of the Russian nobility.

In place of the current aristocracy, she must raise up a new one that is beholden to her. Maybe the high-ranking slaves who served as the city`s bureacracy could be elevated as its new social elite. They already run most of the day-to-day governance of the city, and, as the highest ranking slaves, they stand to lose much from their "Emancipation." The wealth and property confiscated by Danny could be bequeathed to them, perhaps only in trust, (like a feudal fief) to ensure their loyalty. It is also likely that there are wealthy merchant families in the city who have previously been restricted in their social status by their lack of noble blood, who would be grateful (and beholden) to the new regime for facilitating their elevation of status.

Of course, this whole process would likely take decades to stabilize, require the deaths of thousands, and create years of economic chaos. Sorry, Danny, but "Them`s the Breaks." Fundamentally re-creating an entire society isn`t something that can be done nicely or quickly.

I`m sure everyone will notice that this is similar to what Danny did in Astapor by ordering the execution of every "Wise Master" over the age of 12. She broke the back of the segment of Astapor that had incentive to resist her, and this worked fine while she remained in the city with her overwhelming military power. The trouble is, she left with her military strength before installing a stable government. She abandoned the city to the tender mercies of whoever was strong and ruthless enough to take power in her absence. She learned (Hopefully) that nation-building is a process of decades, not weeks.

And, in fact, the horrible consequences of of her actions in Astapor are what are paralyzing Danny in Meereen. She is going through a very painful growing process. Whatever else she may be, (Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, heir to Aegon the Conqueror) she is also, fundamentally, a TEENAGER, with all of the awkwardness, idealism, and insecurity that that implies. Like most teenagers, she is just starting to get a feel for her own capabilities and potential, and getting a sense of how the real world works. Also like many teenagers, (up until her conquest of Meereen, at least) she thinks that she has all the answers. The world would be so much better if they would just listen to her. She has so many great ideas about how to do things, and if she just had the chance, she could show everyone how they`ve been doing everything wrong all this time, and everything will get better if they do things her way! If she were a teenager in America today, she might join Greenpeace, Occupy Wallstreet, PITA, Code Pink, or whatever idealistic fringe group whose BLOG she stumbled upon first and gripped her impressionable young mind.

Unlike most teenagers, however, she has the power to enforce her idealism through military force. The agony and embarrassment of her growing pains are plaid out on a geopolitical scale. Imagine a teenager wearing a Che Gueverra shirt who rants on BLOGs about the 1%, Social Justice, the Military Industrial complex, and all of that, all of a sudden had the power to put his idealism to practice; Pretty terrifying, right? Most politically idealistic teenagers get to grow up into pragmatic, cynical adults without leaving a trail of corpses in their wake or leaving whole societies in economic chaos.

Also like a normal teenager, Danny has a staggering capacity for cruelty when she feels it justified by her simplistic sense of right and wrong. She calmly orders the extermination of every man, woman and child over the age of 12 among the slaver class in Astapor, largely because of her immature understanding of real human suffering and moral ambiguities. Think of child soldiers in Africa, or the Hitler Youth divisions in WWII, or just any old teenager who is willing to calmly assert that one group of people or another that they do not like should be killed out of hand.

Incidentally, her decision to wipe out the slaving nobility of Astapor was the right decision, politically and strategically, but she made the decision out of her warped sense of righteousness, rather than political savy. Her confidence in her own convictions was what allowed her to act shrewdly and decisively to her short-term advantage throughout her campaign in Slavers` Bay, up until her occupation of Meereen. But now, she has seen the horrific consequences of her idealism. She understands the real human tole of what she has done and what she aspires to do in the future, and she is paralyzed by indecision.

She now understands the cruelty and violence that her return to Westeros would necessitate, so she has resolved to stay in Meereen and fix everything she has broken. She has seen with her own eyes what dragon-fire can do to a human being, and is terrified of the idea of using that power for her own ends, and so locks up her own dragons! She is now too mature to slaughter the Meerenese nobility out of one-dimensional idealism, but she is not mature enough to slaughter them out of political necessity. She is also paralyzed by her sense of responsibility to the freed slaves of Meereen. The coldly pragmatic solution is to sack Meereen bare and move on, leaving it to its fate. But, if Danny did that, she would not be Danny. That`s something Visaerys would have done.

Her newfound sense of concience and empathy that is keeping her from making sound strategic decisions is also what inspires the messianic loyalty of her subjects. And when she learns to make the hard decisions out of necessity, rather than out of righteous anger, she will truely be a force to be reckoned with.

[Lord Lannister]

Leave. This is how the problem should be handled.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Demand every Pyramid Lord to come and pay me homage would be a start. Monthly inspection would be a must, starting the same day of the homage to catch them off guard. If any refuse I'll burn them out.

Daenerys needs Tyrion for this kind of stuff.

[The Gallows Knight]

Simple:

Heads. Spikes. Walls.

[Ramsay Gimp]

...

Great post :agree:

[The silver dragon]

dam.. all this Caligula like "heads, spikes, walls"

response are rather worrying.

not to mention the fact that those kinds of tactics did not work for maegor.

[Ramsay Gimp]

dam.. all this Caligula like "heads, spikes, walls"

response are rather worrying.

not to mention the fact that those kinds of tactics did not work for maegor.

Different situations and contexts. If Dany really wishes to rule Meereen, she either needs to wipe out the slaver aristocracy or leave slavery in place.

[Lord Lannister]

dam.. all this Caligula like "heads, spikes, walls"

response are rather worrying.

not to mention the fact that those kinds of tactics did not work for maegor.

"heads, spikes, walls" was a quote from the show. Tywin was telling Tyrion how to handle the problems in King's Landing right before he named him Hand and Tyrion gave that reply.

[DireWolfSpirit]

During my latest reread I have once again landed at aDWD and while reading Dany's first chapter, it struck me that she really is in a diffcult position. I know that she owes the whole situation to herself, but still it got me thinking how I would try to resolve the whole Sons of the Harpy situation, while still staying (or rather becoming) the respected King (Queen in Dany's case obviously) of Meereen. Is she being too soft? Is she being too hard? Should she do as the Shavepate suggests and kill the sons of rich families whenever one of her freedmen is killed by the Sons of the Harpy? If she does this it might provoke an even bigger, more open rebellion, if she does nothing, she proves herself weak.

What would you do to try and resolve the situation at this point?

Edit: I should add that just leaving Meereen as will probably be suggested should not be considered an option, as it doesn't really fix the problem, it just runs from it.

I think Dany should've pursued a harder line with these S.o.H.

The Unsullied are not for ornate door display, targets for assassins.

I'd put them to use on a new mission

She needs to forget half measures.

For each of her freeman that is killed,

2 of the sons of the rich families becomes dragon food.

Make sure the subjects are told that if we run out of your sons to feed the dragons.....

we start on the daughters.

This proclamation will be retroactive ,

meaning we're gonna take 6 sons a day till the numbers match up for 2 dead sons for each dead

freeman.

Ready, Set, Go Unsullied...Effective Immediately!

I don't think she needs to worry about provoking a larger rebellion,

these subjects don't appear "on the fence". They are already all in,

waiting for an opportunity to take her down.

They need to be crushed.....decisively.

[Dukhasinov]

Simple:

Heads. Spikes. Walls.

Cut off their manhood and feed them to the goats

[The Gallows Knight]

Cut off their manhood and feed them to the goats

But there are no goats!

[Mithras]

Different situations and contexts. If Dany really wishes to rule Meereen, she either needs to wipe out the slaver aristocracy or leave slavery in place.

Surely wiping out the entire class of slavers is how we got rid of slavery in the real world.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Surely wiping out the entire class of slavers is how we got rid of slavery in the real world.

How did Reconstruction go in the South after slavery was abolished?

[The silver dragon]

How did Reconstruction go in the South after slavery was abolished?

more industrialization.

putting money to revitalize its economy.

[Dukhasinov]

But there are no goats!

Well, make due!

[Joey Crows]

I think she is fooling herself into thinking she is merciful and just. Yes, she does have her heart in the right place most of the time, but she needs to realize that she is waging war and grasping for power and control. Even if she frees every slave and shows mercy to some, there are still plenty dead and destroyed by her actions. That being said, I would embrace the necessities of the endgame (regaining the Iron Throne) and kill whoever needs to be killed to satisfy the Mereenese who will ultimately rule the city after I have departed for Westeros. I would appease the Yunkai'i and the rest of slavers bay in order to maintain my wealth and army. Then I would begin making pacts with those Westerosi who can help me win the throne. Once all that's said and done, I can take my dragons and return to anywhere I feel unsatisfied about and take retributions. All the while showing the small folk the face of a kind and gentle liberator.

[TimJames]

How did Reconstruction go in the South after slavery was abolished?

Actually, it initially went very well. Black freedmen were turning out for elections very frequently, many freedmen were in congress, and three amendments which promised racial equality were passed.

There was only two reasons Reconstruction failed; the government treated ex confederates with punishment instead of reconciliation, and afterwards they gave up as soon as the first signs of difficulty began to show. If the federal troops stayed in the south long enough for it to rebuild socially and ethically, than the civil rights movement would have occurred a century early.

It is depressing to imagine how the world could have been had Lincoln not been murdered, because he was murdered and the world was left worse off because his work was unfinished.

[Joey Crows]

Actually, it initially went very well. Black freedmen were turning out for elections very frequently, many freedmen were in congress, and three amendments which promised racial equality were passed.

There was only two reasons Reconstruction failed; the government treated ex confederates with punishment instead of reconciliation, and afterwards they gave up as soon as the first signs of difficulty began to show. If the federal troops stayed in the south long enough for it to rebuild socially and ethically, than the civil rights movement would have occurred a century early.

It is depressing to imagine how the world could have been had Lincoln not been murdered, because he was murdered and the world was left worse off because his work was unfinished.

In addition the destruction of the South's economy and means of production were never prioritized by the nation after the war. Had reconstruction been more literal then perhaps the progress of the infrastructure would have help bolster the progress of social change. When things go bad economically people tend to hunker down in their mindset on all things out of fear of more loss.

[Dukhasinov]

Surely wiping out the entire class of slavers is how we got rid of slavery in the real world.

It`s not about getting rid of slavery. It`s about ending opposition to your rule.

more industrialization.

putting money to revitalize its economy.

A decade of military occupation and martial law. Suspension if due process. large scale disenfranchisement of those deemed disloyal to Washington. Carving up the estates of the politically powerful planter class. In other words, a much less bloodthirsty version of what I described.

[Mithras]

It`s not about getting rid of slavery. It`s about ending opposition to your rule.

Oh, I see. Maegor with Teats again. That worked equally perfect.