Heresy 96 The Nights King

[Black Crow]

5. Why help the Stark in WF?

One thing we've discussed on this point before is that the Stark in Winterfell may have betrayed Joruman as well. If we look at the Black Gate being the only way across the Wall then we have a fairly substantial human population in Dark Narnia who might want to get themselves through it and into the comparative comfort and safety of the Realms of Men, but can't get the necessary visas.

Winterfell promises free passage, defeats the Nights KIng and then laughs as he locks the door.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

That's Martin's idea; identifying the Nights King as the Last Hero. Its not an idea we've proposed here before and its not one I'm in agreement with. Its just possible that the stairway to Hell existed before the Wall, but we've no evidence on that, althoughit's existence if revealed would be consistent with some of the archaeology up my way. On the whole though I'm inclined to dismiss it and stick with the statement that it was as old as the Wall and presumably therefore was at one time the only way through.

I agree with you, and I think both of us disagree with Lord Martin's theory (though admittedly fun to consider, I just can't see how it all fits together without a time machine).

Since the Nightfort is described as the oldest castle, it may be contemporary with the Black Gate, but not necessarily. This compounds the issue of Castle Black. If we stick with the "official" dating and allow Castle Black to be half as old, then Castle Black is no more than 4,000 years old, or proportionately less if we adopt the foreshortened timelines proposed by Lord Rodrik and by Hoster Blackwood. Its entirely feasible that most of the other castles were established in the period between the building of the Night Fort and the building of Castle Black, but they could equally well have come later. The two important points here are (1) the Nightfort was the first castle, which of itself suggests it was not built as part of the Wall itself and since the others came after, then clearly at the time it was built there were no other castles on the Wall. Until Sam gets in amongst the libraries in the Citadel we're stuck with that very frustrating puzzle. And then (2) why was Castle Black built when it was? The obvious answer appears to have been to provide a new seat for the Lord Commander, yet the Nightfort continued in use until just 200 years ago; hence the suggestion that the move was made after the overthrow of the Nights King and the establishment of a new Watch waving that dodgy mediaeval king list.

Well I think the list is just to show us that it's all legend, and to allow GRRM a little flexibility in his timelines by waving it off as "well they were old stories, and the dates just got exaggerated". But we do know there were at least 680+ Lord Commanders, so we're still talking about the Night's watch being extremely old.

What if the purpose of Castle Black was to house Andals to help Garrison the wall after the forming of the Seven Independent Kingdoms (which would have been shortly after the Andal invasion), since they might not want Northmen and Andals sharing barracks so soon after a war between the two. Thus why Castle Black was built without any walls to the South, so that it was no military threat to the King of the North.

The Northerners stayed at the Night Fort, and the Andals inhabited Castle Black, and perhaps they even remained seperate all the way until Aegon's Landing. At which point Jaeherys visited and they questioned why two forts were so close together, since the expense to run both was too much, and perhaps they are the ones that moved the Lord Commander to Castle Black and we know they shut down the Night Fort.

[Lord Martin]

To me, the whole point of the Black Gate is to traverse the wall, and it seems like the obvious choice for how the Night's King sacrificed to the Others. But if there is no wall, then what on earth would the Black Gate be there for? If the wall is there, then why is it there if the Long Night hasn't occurred yet? Because the Last Hero supposedly ended the Long Night with the Battle for the Dawn.

So confused how it's being proposed that the Night's King pre-dates the Wall...

Yes, that is the purpose of the gate. But the gate is part of the Wall, not part of the Nightfort.

If the Wall was there, then NK probably needed a way through. But my whole theory is that he pre-dates the Wall, hence no need for a gate.

And I'm pretty sure the Wall gets built after the Long Night, not during it.

I also disagree with whatever text Sam found that says the Last Hero battled the Others with a sword of dragon steel. This would have been written so long after the actual events I believe it is simply repeating the initial conflation of "Last Hero" and Night's King. More likely it was the Last Hero's son, Brandon the Builder who battled the Others and in eastern tradition he became known as Azor Ahai. He would have then built the Wall after defeating the Others.

Its a given that Brandon the Builder has some capacity for ice magic, wouldn't it make sense that this was inherited by being descended from the Others?

[JNR]

That's the one! Get rid of him, run a whole slew of stories denouncing him as wicked, depraved and corrupt to justify his overthrow, and then better still produce that dodgy king-list to pretend that he never existed in the first place. Long Live the Revolution.

I do agree with you and Wolfmaid about that; I think he has been demonized, though the motive isn't so clear to me.

The LC list is a shakier area for me. I would really like a look at that thing myself.

One little point. Surely Sam, intellectual and curious, would have taken note of the earliest names.

Surely he would have noticed and commented on it if there were such a name as "Jon Snow." Especially in slot #13.

So I conclude that either

1. Jon Snow (Ygritte: "an evil name") was not the name of the Night's King (though I have suggested it might have been!), or

2. The name of the Night's King was, per the story, struck from the records (such records as could have been kept in the pre-Andal days -- runes on rocks, Sam tells us)

Also, Black Crow, not to derail the thread, but if you could post a link to these archaeological discoveries in your area you mentioned, I for one would click it. The whole area intrigues me.

[Black Crow]

Oh you meant the Rat King story and the King Sherritt blurb?

Its not just the unchancy stuff like the Rat Cook and the thing in the night, its the political stuff as well: the Night Fort is where King Sherrit called down his curse on the Andals.

[Lord Martin]

One thing we've discussed on this point before is that the Stark in Winterfell may have betrayed Joruman as well. If we look at the Black Gate being the only way across the Wall then we have a fairly substantial human population in Dark Narnia who might want to get themselves through it and into the comparative comfort and safety of the Realms of Men, but can't get the necessary visas.

Winterfell promises free passage, defeats the Nights KIng and then laughs as he locks the door.

Brandon was the FIRST Stark of Winterfell, Joramun would help because they are all on team Human vs. team Other. There was no "wildling/Stark" divide back then.

Black Crow is dead on here I think. Brandon built the Wall where he did to keep the Nightfort on the south side. He then built the Black Gate, a magical gate that only a sworn brother of the NW can pass through.

This is why Ygritte rants and raves against Jon Snow when she tells him the Wall is made of blood and that her people just happened to be on the wrong side of it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Since the linked post was mine, I'll reply.

But first I will state, there is no perfect theory based on the books we have to date. Some facts simply cannot fit.

Second, myths and legends get twisted and conflated over time. Plus, history is written by the victors so often the mis-deeds of the winners go unwritten and vice versa.

One concept to wrestle with is what is older the Wall or the Watch? Would it make more sense for humanity to build a wall and then create some mystical order to guard it, or does it make more sense that the military order/army existed first, and after the battle built the Wall? IMO, only the latter makes sense.

Next, the Long Night lasted a generation and the NW battled the Others during the Long Night. In one generation, its quite likely that the Watch went through more than one Lord Commander. So 13 LCs during the Long Night is quite feasible.

I do not suggest the Others saved him. But clearly human baby boys have some sort of import to the Others, we know this both from myth (Night's King) and from present day fact (Craster). What I am suggesting is that the Last Hero is not a Hero at all, he was a coward who sacrificed his own children to the Others.

This would mean there are two major similarities with Night's King and Last Hero (the 13th leader of a group) and sacrificing his own children. The name "Brandon" could be a third link.

So during the Long Night, the Last Hero kept sacrificing to the Others, which provided him with protection and possibly allowed him to give humans the impression that he was having success in the war against the Others.

The Nightfort would also have existed before the Wall, its where the Last Hero lived.

Then picking up at Bran's memory of Nan's tale of NK, enter the female Other who joins him at the Night Fort. My theroy is he met her after he made the pact with the Others. NK gave her his seed and soul meaning there was likely fruit from their union. This being would have both human powers and the powers of the Others. So i theorize this is where the Stark ability to Warg comes from. The Others control the skins of their wights, so in half-breed Others, why not the ability to skinchange?

The son grows up during the Long Night and his father tells him about his past. This son, Brandon the Builder is the one who ends up defeating his father, thus ending the Long Night. He then built the Wall just north of the Nightfort and set the Watch to guard it.

Hope that clarifies a bit but happy to elaborate more.

It's a fun story, but ignoring things that are in the text and passing them off as things that could have gotten out of whack, when all we have is a couple of paragraphs to begin with seems kind of dicey.

As for the Night's Fort pre-dating the wall, did the Black Gate also pre-date the wall, and if so, why would there be a gate with no wall? Or was the Black Gate built beneath the kitchens of the Night's Fort after the wall was built?

I respect your theory, because it's fun and it's plausible, it's just not one I can agree to, because of the inconsistencies with the text and with the sequence of events as I understand them.

I have one (that got deleted and which I am in the process of re-writing) where Brandon the Builder is the Last Hero and Azor Ahai, but he really does find the children because he is the first Human Greenseer, founds the Night's Watch, forges Lightbringer by driving the sword through the heart of a "Red Priestess" named Nissa Nissa, creating a union of Ice and Fire to fight back the Others. After the war, he builds the Wall and Winterfell, and he still sits in his weirwood throne with the real Lightbringer across his knees in the crypts of Winterfell.

One last thing, just because the First Men fought the Others for a generation, doesn't mean the Night's Watch fought them for a generation. I do agree with you that the Night's Watch was likely formed before the wall, but only right before the Battle for the Dawn, where the Others were defeated, and then they continued to exist to first build the wall, and then to man it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Yes, that is the purpose of the gate. But the gate is part of the Wall, not part of the Nightfort.

If the Wall was there, then NK probably needed a way through. But my whole theory is that he pre-dates the Wall, hence no need for a gate.

And I'm pretty sure the Wall gets built after the Long Night, not during it.

I also disagree with whatever text Sam found that says the Last Hero battled the Others with a sword of dragon steel. This would have been written so long after the actual events I believe it is simply repeating the initial conflation of "Last Hero" and Night's King. More likely it was the Last Hero's son, Brandon the Builder who battled the Others and in eastern tradition he became known as Azor Ahai. He would have then built the Wall after defeating the Others.

Its a given that Brandon the Builder has some capacity for ice magic, wouldn't it make sense that this was inherited by being descended from the Others?

Well the stairs to the Black Gate are literally within the Night Fort, right?

I agree that the sword wasn't really "dragon steel" but I think it had something to do with dragon-glass forging. Which may be what the Valyrians re-discovered years later and perfected to create Valyrian steel.

And I don't know if Brandon the Builder had ice magic, or if he just enlisted the help of the Children or the Old Gods to help him build the wall?

[Black Crow]

Also, Black Crow, not to derail the thread, but if you could post a link to these archaeological discoveries in your area you mentioned, I for one would click it. The whole area intrigues me.

This isn't the site I was thinking of, but its similar and I really ought to have posted it in the Winterfell thread. Basically though there have been a number of chambered cairns investigated in which there appears to be provision for meditation/seeking of visions by a priest or shaman deep underground.

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/earlypeople/tomboftheeagles/

[TheTowerOfJoy]

One thing we've discussed on this point before is that the Stark in Winterfell may have betrayed Joruman as well. If we look at the Black Gate being the only way across the Wall then we have a fairly substantial human population in Dark Narnia who might want to get themselves through it and into the comparative comfort and safety of the Realms of Men, but can't get the necessary visas.

Winterfell promises free passage, defeats the Nights KIng and then laughs as he locks the door.

LOL, I like it :)

[Black Crow]

And I don't know if Brandon the Builder had ice magic, or if he just enlisted the help of the Children or the Old Gods to help him build the wall?

But bear in mind its just a legend that he built the Wall and one that his descendent, our Bran, doesn't seem to believe.

[Black Crow]

I do agree with you and Wolfmaid about that; I think he has been demonized, though the motive isn't so clear to me.

The LC list is a shakier area for me. I would really like a look at that thing myself.

One little point. Surely Sam, intellectual and curious, would have taken note of the earliest names.

Surely he would have noticed and commented on it if there were such a name as "Jon Snow." Especially in slot #13.

So I conclude that either

1. Jon Snow (Ygritte: "an evil name") was not the name of the Night's King (though I have suggested it might have been!), or

2. The name of the Night's King was, per the story, struck from the records (such records as could have been kept in the pre-Andal days -- runes on rocks, Sam tells us)

As to point 1; I still think that Ygritte was referring to Ramsay Snow, who no doubt had some very inventive ways of dealing with Wilding raiders

As to point 2; Sam conspicuously doesn't point out the curious matter of a thick black line being drawn through number 13 on the list, or a blank space. Its not that the Nights King, was literally stricken from the record, but that the record was re-written - or completely made up - to pretend that he never existed in the first place. Hence the dodgy king list.

[Lord Martin]

Well the stairs to the Black Gate are literally within the Night Fort, right?

I agree that the sword wasn't really "dragon steel" but I think it had something to do with dragon-glass forging. Which may be what the Valyrians re-discovered years later and perfected to create Valyrian steel.

And I don't know if Brandon the Builder had ice magic, or if he just enlisted the help of the Children or the Old Gods to help him build the wall?

The stairs are there, but I'm not sure what that shows? There would have been all sorts of stairs in the Nightfort and once the Wall was built next to it, all Brandon needed was to build a gate. The stairs probably let to a basement before and the basement was a convenient place for the gate.

Whatever magic Brandon had allowed him to build a Wall of ice. There was a post somewhere that Targs literally have dragon's blood in them which is where my idea for the Starks having the blood of the Others literally in them came from. It would explain warging and Brandon's ability to build ice as he did.

I can't make heads or tails of the Dragon steel business. But I do wonder if obsidian in ASOIAF is not magma like it is in our world, but really fossilized dead dragons. That would explain why the obsidian candles burn but are no consumed and why obsidian works against the Others... and why there is so much of it on Dragonstone.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Its not just the unchancy stuff like the Rat Cook and the thing in the night, its the political stuff as well: the Night Fort is where King Sherrit called down his curse on the Andals.

Right, Rat Cook, my bad. As for King Sherritt, maybe he went up there looking for the Night's Watchmen to help him fight the Andals, and when they wouldn't, he cursed the Andals. I mean King Sherritt is literally one line in the book, I don't think we should base throwing out the entire story of the Dawn Age and the Age of heroes based on one very vague line with no context.

[Amoracchius]

Well we're told it's twice as old as all the other castles on the wall, so it could certainly be the half-way point that the Andals invade. Or maybe some of the other forts had been built when the Andals invaded, but not many of them.

I don't remember being told that, though. I thought the story was that the Nightfort was twice as old as Castle Black, not twice as old as all the other castles on the Wall, hence my confusion and my question. I don't have my books with me otherwise I'd look up the chapter in ASOS where (I think) Bran discusses it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The stairs are there, but I'm not sure what that shows? There would have been all sorts of stairs in the Nightfort and once the Wall was built next to it, all Brandon needed was to build a gate. The stairs probably let to a basement before and the basement was a convenient place for the gate.

Whatever magic Brandon had allowed him to build a Wall of ice. There was a post somewhere that Targs literally have dragon's blood in them which is where my idea for the Starks having the blood of the Others literally in them came from. It would explain warging and Brandon's ability to build ice as he did.

I can't make heads or tails of the Dragon steel business. But I do wonder if obsidian in ASOIAF is not magma like it is in our world, but really fossilized dead dragons. That would explain why the obsidian candles burn but are no consumed and why obsidian works against the Others... and why there is so much of it on Dragonstone.

So you're proposing that they decided to dig up the kitchen and build a gigantic stairway below the it to build a secret gate under the wall after the Nightfort already existed? That seems unlikely to me.

To me, it seems more likely it was either built along with the Nightfort, or the Nightfort was built on top of it.

[Kennedy the Keen]

I don't really believe this is correct, but let's run with it for a minute anyways...

So what we're saying here really is that the "13 companions" were really the first Night's Watch. They set out to find the Children of the Forest (which we were conspicously never told they found). The original leader died, and then the second, etc, until the "Last Hero" sort of became the 13th Lord Commander, and was the last of his brethren left. The Others that were hounding them with ice spiders, instead of killing him saved him (perhaps because he had the blood required to provide them sacrifices similar to what we later see with Craster)?

So instead of killing him, they give him the choice to return with his "bride", who may have been more similar to Val than an actual Other, and he returns and completes the Night Fort, equipped with a secret passage so that he can sacrifice his children to the Others similar to Craster.

So then apparently the "battle for the dawn" never even occurs, and instead, Brandon the Builder (his brother) and Joramun (the King of the Wildlings) find out about his deal with the Others and form an alliance to kill the Night's King?

Does them killing the Night's King start the Long Night then? Or was it already going?

I'm lost. Reversing all this stuff around has consequences to the rest of the story, and the pieces just don't seem to fit...

I wasn't saying it was the end all be all of NK theories I just thought he had some good points that you might wanna take a look at. It is very interesting to say the least. It's good to have a different perspective in things and be a little creative.

And I do not think we will ever know what is "correct". Why are your theory's more correct then someone else's? All we have is a bunch of stories from times where written history did not exist? The timelines could be false and the events themselves seem to be inaccurate or even nonexistent. No one really knows what actually happened. I think all idea should be viewed with an open mind. Saying one theory is incorrect compared to another, when neither came from GRRM himself, is kinda conceded and slightly offensive. Sorry to be so sensitive lol I just want everyone to get along and work together I thought this was what these Heresy thread were about...

Again, my bad for being such a winey crybaby. I just had to day something :) I truly love you guys already please don't hate me LOL

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Alright, so I was considering the reason for Castle Black not having walls to the south, and looked up the following passage:

The first time he had seen Castle Black with his own eyes, Jon had wondered why anyone would be so foolish as to build a castle without walls. How could it be defended?

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. The Night's Watch had nine hundred and ninety-six Lords Commander before Jeor Mormont, most of them men of courage and honor . . . but we have had cowards and fools as well, our tyrants and our madmen. We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall."

Ok so here we have evidence that even after the Lord Commander had already moved to presumably Castle Black the Nightfort was still garrisoned.

[Lord Martin]

So you're proposing that they decided to dig up the kitchen and build a gigantic stairway below the it to build a secret gate under the wall after the Nightfort already existed? That seems unlikely to me.

To me, it seems more likely it was either built along with the Nightfort, or the Nightfort was built on top of it.

Not at all. I propose the steps were already there.

Does the text state that the steps led down to the gate and the gate alone? It was probably the supply cellar for the kitchens before the gate. Then when the Wall is built abutting the backside of the castle, a portion of the castle wall was knocked down to give access to the gate built into the Wall.

[theREALjonsnow]

As to point 1; I still think that Ygritte was referring to Ramsay Snow, who no doubt had some very inventive ways of dealing with Wilding raiders

As to point 2; Sam conspicuously doesn't point out the curious matter of a thick black line being drawn through number 13 on the list, or a blank space. Its not that the Nights King, was literally stricken from the record, but that the record was re-written - or completely made up - to pretend that he never existed in the first place. Hence the dodgy king list.

i would tend to disagree. Where in the text does it mention that ygritte even knows who the bastard of bolton is?

i think the mention to them having the same blood, bael the bard ,skagos, blue winter rose all given to us by a girl kissed by fire are hints that when she says an evil name, its because it is a cursed evil name in wilding lore, for he knows nothing. also i stick to my guns that jon shot the arrow that killed his lady love, fletching of arrow aside. dany killed drogo and tyrion killed shae...

the citadel might have a " truer history" that is oddly close to Old Nan's version, heck we might even gets his name. can't wait to see sam get that chain! also he might find a old andal to rune dictionary that helps him translate purpose of that horn of his...

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