Sansa loosing her wolf poosible forshadowing?

[The Fresh PtwP]

I interpreted the former title "A Time for Wolves" as it's a dire (heh) time to have a wolf. I think any Stark separated from their wolf will bite the bullet in ADoS.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Also Sansa did everything she could to save Ned when he was held captive. She went down on her knees at court and begged for mercy and had a plan in her mind. She hoped Ned would be banished to the Summer Isles and when she would be Joffrey's queen perhaps she could persuade him to led Ned return. If this isn't a sign of the so called Loyalty she lacks according to you then I don't know what it.

[SpringKing]

The discussion isn't about whether Sansa has suffered more or worse abuse than the other characters, but the idea that Sansa deserves that abuse as "punishment". Which you agree with since you said that what Sansa went through is 'divine punishment'. That is what is disturbing and highly problematic.

How is it "disturbing and highly problematic"? She foolishly chooses Joff and Cersei over Arya and Ned only to have her newly chosen family punish her. The only disturbing thing about that bit of divine retribution was Sansa choosing to trust J&C after what happened on the Trident. In return for being a tipsy fool on the Trident, the gods answer her prayers with a tipsy fool in the godswood. Who betrays Sansa to her new, fake father, who also betrayed her own father.

Sansa is made of prime example of punishment appropriately fitting the crime. If you'd argue that Sansa's punishment is worse than her crimes, I'd only point to all the punishment Arya has had to take because of Sansa's betrayal. Revealing Ned's plan to Cersei didnt just cost her father his head, it cost Arya much as well, most of all - her identity. Here again we see a symmetry of punishment as Sansa is also caused to lose her identity. Where Sansa only has to lie about a murder to save herself, Arya has to murder to do so.

The interaction and parallels between Sansa and Arya are fascinating. Arya's aliases start with Sansa. Arya runs away several times because of Sansa. Arya's 'needlework' is the opposite of Sansa. Arya's wolf lives, Sansa's dies. Sansa never has a bad hair day, Arya always has one. Sansa mistakes Sandor for her father, Arya pretends to be Sandor's daughter. Both destroy kids dolls. Both poison. Altogether, the Stark sisters relationship is a worthy subject for an extended monologue

A child psycholgist once told that if you only tell your kid not to run out to the road, he/she will very possibly still go out. You have to explain your kid why he/she shouldn't run out. That is parenting 101.

3 of my men were killed here. We gotta leave. Dont tell anybody. That pretty much covers why Sansa shouldnt run in the road and rat the family out to Cersei.

Also Sansa did everything she could to save Ned when he was held captive.

Ned may have been better off if she hadnt. Joff's motive in having Ned executed may have been as much to inflict pain on Sansa as to demonstrate a traitor's fate.

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

One thing that I haven't seen anyone consider is that Lady's death is a foreshadowing, not that Sansa is going to die, but that all of the other pet dire wolves are gonners. Nymeria is a menace in the riverlands and many people are hunting her pack. Summer is north of the wall and facing scarce game and wights. I forget where Ghost is, but Jon has just been stabbed, so there's a good chance that they'll go after Ghost too. Shaggydog is a big question mark, but if Rickon is being taken back and shaggy is still practically feral, he might get put down for the safety of the people bringing Rickon back.

[The Old Tongue]

She has also been really lucky in suriving rape, death etc... I dont think GRRM is done teaching her a lesson yet, all her siblings have gone through worse and still have thier wolf.

Sansa was never raped. How does one go about surviving death (unless you're Jon, of course)?

The death of Lady was allegory to Sansa's disinterest in being a Stark and her willingness to look past Joffrey's twisted nature in haste to becoming a queen.

[Dicer]

It would be a lesson if only Sansa were introspective enough to understand it.

Which is why I don't think it's a lesson. Because the character herself does not think it so. I don't know if it's because GRRM does not spend time on it, does not intend Sansa's troubles as a 'punishment' or if it's an intended character trait, but we never see Sansa experiencing remorse for the way she treated her sister and father. She rightly blames all the Lannisters but never examines the part her own actions played.

We see Arya feel guilty for her role in Mycah's death. We feel Jon feel remorse for the baby swap. He feels bad after Donal Nye calls him out on his treatment of his fellow black brothers. But we don't see this with Sansa. We don't see Ned spend time with Sansa (As he did with Arya) or telling her that it was wrong to lie about the incident at the Trident. It could be that Sansa as a character is not as important as Arya (She was created as a foil to Arya after all) and so GRRM was not expanding much on Sansa, her actions or her relationships with her family.

So in the grand scheme of things, I don't think GRRM meant it as 'divine punishment'. It was bad things happening to Sansa, just as bad things are happening to Arya, Bran, Rickon, Jon, Dany and Robb. Not to mention all the bad things happening to tertiary characters like Jeyne Poole.

3 of my men were killed here. We gotta leave. Dont tell anybody. That pretty much covers why Sansa shouldnt run in the road and rat the family out to Cersei.

Yes, but he should have allowed for the fact that Sansa was extra stupid. Not understanding his daughter shows Ned's own ignorance. I don't think he expected betrayal. He should have sat her down and laid it out to her.

I don't know if it would have made any difference considering how cartoonishly dumb and shallow GRRM wrote Sansa in AGoT. I mean she ran to Cersei, the person who ordered the death of her beloved pet! I can't imagine any child doing that.

[SpringKing]

No doubt there's more than of the little 'dumb blond' type being applied to Sansa. I'd still maintain that Sansa's symmetrical punishments are intended to be 'divine lessons'. If she were to recognize them as they happened, but still continue to screw up, she'd be too unlikable to fit the 'Beauty and the Beast', 'Cinderella' and 'Damsel in Distress' tropes that camouflage her real arc - 'good girl gone bad'. Its quite a trick to create a character as repetitively stupid yet capable of inspiring a considerable fan base that sees her as naive but still worthy.

Sansa's moment of epiphany will come to her late in the game and it will be a total psychic shock. I can see Sandor wising her up to her ways and dismissing her as the kind of liar and fraud that he hates. I also think the connections and parallels between Sansa and Arya demand some form of resolution before the end, with Sansa groveling for Arya's forgiveness.

[David Selig]

If you'd argue that Sansa's punishment is worse than her crimes, I'd only point to all the punishment Arya has had to take because of Sansa's betrayal.

What the hell are you talking about? Ned was a goner regardless of what Sansa did, What happened to Arya had nothing to do with Sansa's actions.

Sansa's moment of epiphany will come to her late in the game and it will be a total psychic shock. I can see Sandor wising her up to her ways and dismissing her as the kind of liar and fraud that he hates. I also think the connections and parallels between Sansa and Arya demand some form of resolution before the end, with Sansa groveling for Arya's forgiveness.

Forgiveness for what?

What does Arya deserves for her multiple murders by your standards, BTW? 20000 years in hell?

[Dicer]

What the hell are you talking about? Ned was a goner regardless of what Sansa did, What happened to Arya had nothing to do with Sansa's actions.

It's possible that Sansa, Arya and Jeyne Poole could have got away on their ship if Sansa had not spilled the beans to Cersei. Ned was probably a goner anyway. But the children could have possibly escaped. Ned made arrangements for them to leave before everything went to hell.

From AGoT

“But I love him,” Sansa wailed, confused and frightened.

“How well I know that, child,” Cersei said, her voice so kind and sweet. “Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father’s plan to send you away from us, if not for love?”

-----

So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly… only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

Also from GRRM's SSM

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

Cersei herself admits that Sansa's betrayal helped her.

Now, as GRRM himself says, there are a lot of players in Ned's downfall. But it's possible things would have been different if the girls had managed to get away. With his daughters not held hostage, Ned may not have confessed to false crimes and lost his head. Arya could have reached her family and Sansa would not be a Lannister hostage. And Jeyne Poole may not have to go through that horrendous experience.

[harry_dresden]

What the hell are you talking about? Ned was a goner regardless of what Sansa did, What happened to Arya had nothing to do with Sansa's actions.

The bolded is merely conjecture.

Ned confessing was important to his death.

It was done in front of a lot of people and Cersei couldn't just stop it in front of so many people.

If Ned stayed there in the black cells for a lot longer than the day he was executed, its possible that Robb captures Jaime and arranges a trade Jaime for Ned.

[SpringKing]

What the hell are you talking about? Ned was a goner regardless of what Sansa did, What happened to Arya had nothing to do with Sansa's actions.

Forgiveness for what?

What does Arya deserves for her multiple murders by your standards, BTW? 20000 years in hell?

Youre assuming events would have played out in the same fashion and on the same timeline had Sansa not gone to Cersei. Its impossible to evaluate any potential 'butterfly effect' if she hadnt but except to say there was a better chance for Sansa and Arya to have sailed away than for Ned to keep his head. We do get some indication that her betrayal accelerated Cersei's plans with "a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside".

The issue isnt only about the effect of Sansa's betrayal, its also about the her choosing to side with Cersei and Joff over Ned and Arya. Figuratively, she switches houses, dismissing her birth family in the process of adopting a dishonorable new family that has already deeply wronged her. Arya has long been disposable in Sansa's thinking. This is most exemplified when she names Arya as having "traitor's blood" to the Queen. While Sansa never intended any dire consequence to Ned, she also should have been able to 'do the sums' and determine neither Cersei or Joff was trustworthy, much less deserving of her affiliation. Yet she continues to trust in C&J even after Ned is arrested. Syrio's 'truly see, dont just watch' is the applicable byword. Ned's stupidity was, in the divine sense, justly rewarded. Sansa's stupid duplicity, equally so.

re: 'forgiveness' - Sansa requires forgiveness for blaming Arya for everything bad that happened on the Trident, and naming her a traitor for a start. And on the fair probability that Sansa's betrayal cost both sisters escape from KL, that too. From a divine perspective, all of Arya's murders are debatable. The stableboy at KL was going to take her to the Queen, thus he is an unwitting agent of evil. The gate guard at Harrenhal was one of Roose's men, and Roose had just gone full turncloak to the Stark cause, so ditto. Dareon was a deserter from the Night's watch. His life was forfeit anyway. The fat broker in Braavos had hands like white spiders, and may have been entirely deserving of death. Where, from Arya's persepective those all may have seemed murder, the omniscience of the god's might find otherwise.

But that still leaves the fate of the stableboy at Harrenhal who unknowingly helped her steal three of Roose's horses. Arya hopes they wont hurt him but knows they probably will. However, as a servant of the Many Faced God since she 'spent' Jaqen's coin on the gate guard, Arya may have a conditional 'free pass' from the god when it comes to killing. There is also this question - if you save a life, then a life is owed. We see this both when Arya saves Jaqen and when she saves Sam from the two bravos. When Arya asks what good is Jaqen's coin if it cant buy a horse he says: "As well ask what good is life, what good is death?" This indicates some transitive property between life and death. To the god(s), lives saved means deaths owed, and deaths given means lives owed. The two unasked for deaths Arya gives in Harrenhal would then require that the god(s) owe her two lives. And those two lives were both Sandor's, once when he defeats Beric while being judged by the god of light (aka red god), again when he doesnt die from his wounds on the Trident, being saved by the Elder Brother of the 7 gods.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

The bolded is merely conjecture.

Ned confessing was important to his death.

It was done in front of a lot of people and Cersei couldn't just stop it in front of so many people.

If Ned stayed there in the black cells for a lot longer than the day he was executed, its possible that Robb captures Jaime and arranges a trade Jaime for Ned.

Confession or not Ned would have died.

[harry_dresden]

Confession or not Ned would have died.

Is this something there is actually proof of or is it just your opinion?

Both Cersei and Varys did not want Ned to die.

To simply say he would have died no matter what is conjecture, again.

[SpringKing]

Confession or not Ned would have died.

It was the public spectacle of Ned's confession that gave Joff the opportunity to order his execution and override the wishes of Cersei and the small council. It was politically impossible for Cersei to cancel his command in public. In private, she could have easily done so.

From his guided tour of the tarred heads on the wall, we can infer that Joff meant to torture Sansa as much, or more, than to punish Ned.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Is this something there is actually proof of or is it just your opinion?

Both Cersei and Varys did not want Ned to die.

To simply say he would have died no matter what is conjecture, again.

Because it is heavily implied that someone else was pulling the strings.

[jet199]

I do believe that the spirit of Lady went into Sansa but she had to suppress it in Kings Landing but it will show at some point.

I don't think it is punishment for the way she acted. Sansa's punishment for telling on Ned was having her wish fulfilled and having to live with Cersei and Joff.

Sansa worst crime is feeling the need to tell the truth even when she doesn't have to. “… don’t … tell … Sansa!” means Sansa can not keep a secret and will report to her elders what is going on. This tactic is a perfectly good one if you never intend to get involve in politics and your elders have your best interests at heart but she had moved out of that world and into the viper's nest. The only time in AGOT that she doesn't do this is when she says she doesn't remember what happened in the fight between Joffrey and Arya but that could well be down to Sansa's dodgy memory rather than her lying. Her time in KL means she learns this lesson.

"Some lies you have to tell. Lies had been all that kept her alive in King’s Landing. If she had not lied to Joffrey, his Kingsguard would have beat her bloody."

Present Sansa would not make the same mistakes that AGOT Sansa did but she needed to make those mistakes to learn.

Arya also has problems lying but she deals with it by telling half truths or biting her lip.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I do believe that the spirit of Lady went into Sansa but she had to suppress it in Kings Landing but it will show at some point.

Actually there is a very interesting not-so-crackpothish theory that Sansa might have warged Sandor.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65988-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa/page-3#entry3188629

An interesting read and makes GRRM promise of explaining why the unkiss is important to a whole new level. Plus he also said that a new plot will start in Sansa's story in TWOW - assume he is talking about warging etc. I think TWOW might be the book where she will shine. I mean there would be a chapter lemon cakes fans would like :D

[harry_dresden]

Because it is heavily implied that someone else was pulling the strings.

Its heavily implied that LF was BUT

that is not proof of Ned dying no matter what. Its not like Joff just busted into the black cells to kill Ned himself.

Joff wanted to hear a confession from Ned and I am genuinely under the belief he would have done nothing unless Ned did.

"He has to confess and say that I’m the king, or there will be no mercy for him.”

Yeah, I know mercy is a clean death, but still, I doubt Joff could have gone down to the black cells and had Ned executed via flaying or having him torn when neither Varys nor Cersei wanted him dead.

[UnbentFury]

But GRRM heavily implies that she is more like her mother. Not everyone's seed can be as strong as the Baratheons. I understand Sansa fans find it unappealing that she is more of a fish, but that is the way it is. I don't understand how it is "bad reading comprehension" to note the obvious. Not everything is a secret riddle that needs to be thoroughly interpreted.

If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck - it is a trout, yes?

Seconded.

Yes, and Sansa survives while being under the microscope of the enemy and at their mercy 24/7, and is still a hostage. Robb, Arya, Bran and Rickon all have/had something Sansa never had... freedom. Robb died doing exactly what he felt he had to do, and I don't belittle his death. Arya is free and on her own path, as is Bran, doing exactly what they feel they have to do. Rickon, unknown. Only Sansa has been the perpetual hostage. The thing is, she's doing what she feels she has to as well, but she has to do it as a prisoner. My only point is that she isn't given enough credit for this.

No need to be weird about it. You could have just asked what I meant.

I think we can have an entire discussion about the definition of "freedom" there are other ways of being trapped then locked up.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Warden of the Reach, on 21 Feb 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

But GRRM heavily implies that she is more like her mother. Not everyone's seed can be as strong as the Baratheons. I understand Sansa fans find it unappealing that she is more of a fish, but that is the way it is. I don't understand how it is "bad reading comprehension" to note the obvious. Not everything is a secret riddle that needs to be thoroughly interpreted.

If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck - it is a trout, yes?

Yes in looks, but if you look closer at her personality Sansa is creepily similar to Ned.

1. Both of them are the second child of their generation
   
2. Both of them don't have the Wolf's blood and are more icy
   
3. Both of them don their faces
   
4. Both of them are idealistic
   
5. Similar habits
   
6. Sansa is right now in the same place where Ned grew up and has just like him a second father
   

Contrary to popular belief Sansa always identified herself as a Stark from the beginning and while she yearned for the South in the beginning one of the notable things from her narrative is that she has been getting closer and closer to her Northern Roots. Here are some notable quotes of her.

I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell.

"Lord Baelish, I am a Stark of Winterfell."

The hot water made her think of Winterfell, and she took strength from that.

From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be queen.

I am a Stark of Winterfell, she longed to tell him.