Sansa loosing her wolf poosible forshadowing?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65988-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa/page-3#entry3188629 this explains the theory Sansa warging Sandor so much better. Just skip to the Unkiss part if you don't want to read everything, because it's pretty long.

[Another Locust]

Well she believes that Sandor kissed her even though we know it didn't happen. He wanted to kiss her, but he didn't and Sansa accidentally warging Sandor and being in his head could explain why she believes that he kissed her.

Keep in mind that a fully sentient mind cannot be Warged. Bran was lucky to be able to use Hodor. It's a result of PTSD or other mental disorders caused by trauma. Hard to say.

I've always considered the explanation that the Unkiss was an error on GRRM's part, but he decided to keep it because it worked well.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Keep in mind that a fully sentient mind cannot be Warged. Bran was lucky to be able to use Hodor. It's a result of PTSD or other mental disorders caused by trauma. Hard to say.

I've always considered the explanation that the Unkiss was an error on GRRM's part, but he decided to keep it because it worked well.

But Sandor himself has a severe case of PTSD, was triggered and heavenly drunk at that moment. I am not saying it is 100% true, but it is possible.

[ache]

Well she believes that Sandor kissed her even though we know it didn't happen. He wanted to kiss her, but he didn't and Sansa accidentally warging Sandor and being in his head could explain why she believes that he kissed her.

How do we know Sandor wanted to kiss her? He said he meant to "take her", not kiss her.

I kinda like the Sansa getting in Sandor's head thing BUT it doesn't really make any more sense than there having been a real kiss because it doesn't appear in her original POV. Whether he kissed her or she got into his head and thought he did, it should've been there in her POV from that night but it wasn't. It only comes up later, so it seems to be a manufactured memory.

[Another Locust]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65988-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa/page-3#entry3188629 this explains the theory Sansa warging Sandor so much better. Just skip to the Unkiss part if you don't want to read everything, because it's pretty long.

Okay, I understand it now. Still a stretch though.

But Sandor himself has a severe case of PTSD, was triggered and heavenly drunk at that moment. I am not saying it is 100% true, but it is possible.

Couldn't reply fast enough, unfortunately. My previous post no longer represents my views on the matter.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

She has also been really lucky in suriving rape, death etc... I dont think GRRM is done teaching her a lesson yet, all her siblings have gone through worse and still have thier wolf.

What? No, she is not lucky -at- all in what she is going through. She is severly traumatised for going through the death of her family, a forced marriage, anxiety over her period (which is actually very alarming and serious), numerous rape attempts, beaten by the cowards of the Kingsguard, abuse and humiliation by the Lannisters, watching her aunt die (after said attempt to kill her), being sexually assaulted and inappropriately touched by Littlefinger. It's not a competition. All the stark siblings have gone through trauma, but instead of comparing and seeing 'who has it worse' we should try to understand how it affects them. Be critical of the hostile environments.

And if GRRM is teaching Sansa a 'lesson' (even though I doubt it) that is incredibly disgusting and vile. For the errors of judgement of a 13 year old girl... (please, characters have done far far worse. Sansa at least shows adaptiveness and growth in character) her 'lesson' is being beaten, sexually assaulted and abuse?

What people mean when they say she does not have "Stark traits" is that she has neither the appearance of a Stark nor the "high temper" they are often rumored to have. I suppose naturally people also tie the fact that she is not ferocious or wild. It's not hard to see nor is it offensive, I don't see how anyone would be annoyed by that.

If those are the only two Stark traits, it's a really shallow understanding of what it means to be a Stark. I don't consider Bran, Eddard or Robb to be 'wild' or 'ferocious'. Sansa is just as audacious as the rest of the Starks, (A Storm Of Swords being a clear example)

She is completely a Stark.

If there's anyone offending here it's the fact that everyone seems to be offended that she is more Tully than Stark.

Tullys are awesome. Yet besides hair colour, I fail to see much of a correlation or an argument of her being more of a Tully than a Stark. She admires her mother as much as she admires her father. Her mantras are one of bravery- a nice parallel to Ned's 'brave' line to Bran in A Game Of Thrones. I think they are pretty much equal. She can be both.

Do you think Lady would have been sentenced if Sansa had told the truth?

This is Cersei we are talking about. Definately. Cersei is a cruel individual and Joffrey is the biggest brat in all of the seven kingdoms.

it is very apparent that she chooses the most secure path instead of the risikier path to freedom.

When it comes to issues of life and death, you can't afford to take risks, and sometimes, the secure path is the right decision.

GRRM made her resemeble Tully's for a reason.

To prove that she isn't a Stark? She can be both you know. I wouldn't say she takes an appearance of the Tullys, more specifically, her mother. It isn't a this or that scenario.

To answer the OP, an interpretation I've had is that Sansa mirrors Lady in the sense that like Lady, she does seem unthreatening and easily tamed in comparison to other direwolves, yet is still a direwolf. Sansa is 'good' and can portray an image- yet when it comes to the thrust of it, her Stark nature will show out. Cersei's thoughts post Purple Wedding could be an example of this, how she gets the blame. Or, it could foreshadow her future in regards to The Vale and Winterfell.

Losing Lady frees her up to warg birds; especially apt if she ends up using a bird against LF.

That's incredibly awesome and cool. Please, please, Martin, please do this. That would be compelling, gorgeous storytelling.

[SpringKing]

She chose Joffrey over Arya

No she didn't, she stayed neutral and said she didn't remember.

She chose Cersai over Ned

She was asking Cersei to help her. She didn't know it was an "us vs them" scenario.

She said Robb was a traitor

Under coercion and she didn't even mean it

Even now at the eyrie she thinks of LF as her father not NED.

"I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell"

Bran said it correctly "she has lost her wolf" therefore wrote the letter to bran about traitors etc, clearly siding against her family.

What? Cersei kills her wolf and that makes Sansa a traitor? How does that even work?

For most of the time since leaving Winterfell Sansa has NOT identified as a Stark, or acted against their interests

She calls herself a Stark, thinks of her family, thinks of Winterfell, built Winterfell out of snow.

Sansa clearly chooses Joff over Arya afterward - "Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya. She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate." After Ned is arrested, Sansa tells Cersei "I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me."

Sansa knows it was Jaime Lannister that killed three Stark retainers. Ned's "But say nothing of this. It’s better if no one knows of our plans." makes it clear that its "us against all of them", particularly Lannisters.

By the end of AFFC, Alayne has subsumed Sansa almost entirely. She is perfectly obedient to LF, her new, french-kissing father.

[Another Locust]

Sansa clearly chooses Joff over Arya afterward - "Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya. She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate." After Ned is arrested, Sansa tells Cersei "I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me."

Sansa knows it was Jaime Lannister that killed three Stark retainers. Ned's "But say nothing of this. It’s better if no one knows of our plans." makes it clear that its "us against all of them", particularly Lannisters.

By the end of AFFC, Alayne has subsumed Sansa almost entirely. She is perfectly obedient to LF, her new, french-kissing father.

Your thoughts on the matter bring joy to my heart. Love your opinion, by the way.

[Luddagain]

Look from the very beginning of the book Sansa is presented as the "betrayer". Jon and Arya clearly regard her as the family sneak "don't tell Sansa" and she was the ONLY kid who did no love Jon as a brother. Did not bond with "Snow"

When she left Winterfell she threw in her lot with Joffrey and Cersai, and she was not NEUTRAL. Her silence could well have had Arya executed or maimed and Sansa may well have (even at 11) guessed that it might lead to injury to Nymeria. Her ONLY excuse is that she was only 11. We know she was not speaking to her father for much of the time in KL. Now we know Ned talked to Arya about the need for family unity and Arya responded by behaving better (helped by Syrio). We can assume that Ned dad (or tried to have) a similar talk to Sansa. However when faced with a choice - supporting her father or running to Cersai so she could continue her glamorous life in KL, Sansa CHOSE Cersai.

Twice fate punished Sansa for her betrayal by taking her beloved friends/protectors - first lady, in retribution for lying about Micah/Joffrey and second Ned a direct outcome of her betrayal to Cersai. I think it is VERY clear that the loss of Lady severed her direct connection with her family and Winterfell and led to her alienation.

There seems to be some old "Winterfell" magic at work, that punishes "betrayers" severely. Sansa lied for her personal benefit, to the detriment of her sister. The fates intervened and she lost Lady. Ned chopped of lady's head, and for that act against the old gods "magic" he lost his head.

Now Sansa had little choice in the way she behaved once a prisoner in KL, although Arya would perhaps have been more reckless and somehow escaped. This is NOT about lets hate Sansa. She was only an 11 year old child. In the scheme of things, Arya, Rickon and probably even bran have behaved worse but this is about her connection to her family and the link with Lady.

Now clearly Sansa has not fully rejected her family and still sees herself as a Stark.

However I think she is at the cross roads. Her last chapter was really creepy because she DOES seem to be regarding LF as daddy - even in her own head. I think GRRM has set it up this way, but I have no idea which way she will go - towards LF and some very dodgy stuff or back home to Winterfell and her family

[SpringKing]

And if GRRM is teaching Sansa a 'lesson' (even though I doubt it) that is incredibly disgusting and vile. For the errors of judgement of a 13 year old girl... (please, characters have done far far worse. Sansa at least shows adaptiveness and growth in character) her 'lesson' is being beaten, sexually assaulted and abuse?

Characters have done far less and suffered more than Sansa. Jeyne Poole is a good example. How many more 'errors of judgement' need to accumulate before Sansa can officially be declared 'a good girl gone bad'?

I'd say just one more cup of sweetsleep ought to seal that deal.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

Characters have done far less and suffered more than Sansa. Jeyne Poole is a good example. How many more 'errors of judgement' need to accumulate before Sansa can officially be declared 'a good girl gone bad'?

I'd say just one more cup of sweetsleep ought to seal that deal.

It isn't a competition of who has suffered the most. Sansa isn't going to fit into dull ideals and concepts of 'good girl' 'bad girl'. Sansa doesn't deserve to die, I am frankly grossed out by people who view the ordeals she has gone through as justice of some kind. Yeah, cause being sexually assaulted multiple times, beaten and abuse is clearly punishment for Sansa being Sansa...

[IRON BANK]

“She lost her wolf,” he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father’s guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady’s bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows.

What do people think about Sansa loosing her wolf?

At first I thought it was symbol to signify that Sansa is more Tully than stark, but after my reread i cant help but think its a possible forshadowing of future events, could it possibly mean that sansa will not make it to the end? or does it just mean that she threw away her stark identity?

Edit: excuse the spelling Im a bit stoned.

Her Direwolf dying is a symbol of her heritage in the North being forsaked in a temporary way. When she gets her real wolf pack back her family. Sansa will come full circle, she has already started down that path now.

[SpringKing]

It isn't a competition of who has suffered the most. Sansa isn't going to fit into dull ideals and concepts of 'good girl' 'bad girl'. Sansa doesn't deserve to die, I am frankly grossed out by people who view the ordeals she has gone through as justice of some kind. Yeah, cause being sexually assaulted multiple times, beaten and abuse is clearly punishment for Sansa being Sansa...

The 'good girl' question was established early on for Sansa in AGOT:

• The septa was not appeased. “You’re a good girl, Sansa

• Lady didn’t bite anybody, she’s good

don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good, I promise

“Send Arya away, she started it, Father, I swear it. I’ll be good, you’ll see, just let me stay and I promise to be as fine and noble and courteous as the queen.”

“Where are you sending her? She hasn’t done anything wrong, she’s a good girl.”

She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning

“Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey, I’ll be ever so good a wife to him, you’ll see. I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.”

“I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good, ask Septa Mordane, she’ll tell you

Her Joffrey was good and kind, she knew it in her heart

She was a good girl, and always remembered her courtesies.

Sansa would have been a dull character had she always been as truthful, obedient and courteous as the ideal of 'good'. But 'bad' is rarely dull. Once Sansa steps away from the straight and narrow, there are endlessly entertaining ways for her to be bad. Joff, Cersei and LF provide a smokescreen to cloud the Sansa question - is she good at heart but only bad because of her circumstances? Or should a truly good person be able to withstand adversity without accomplishing bad in the process? Sansa's arc is the oldest moral question in history but its her trials and tribulations that keep it from being simplistic and boring.

The issue of 'justice' that you raise has three intertwined facets - the reader's interpretation, the author's intention, and the gods' intervention. The first is diverse and often poorly expressed. The second is necessarily secretive so as not to be an instruction manual instead of a novel. The last, implied deus ex machina, the verdict of the gods, is most interesting. In the godswood, at Sansa's moment of deliverance - “I prayed to the gods for a knight to come save me,” she said. “I prayed and prayed. Why would they send me a drunken old fool?”- her storybook Florian is a fraud, but then she too is not the pure maiden Jonquil.

The divine paradox is that Dontos is a tipsy fool, but he also he owes his life to Sansa, so how could he play her false? The answer dates back to when Sansa was a tipsy fool herself, with Joff at the Trident, when she plays Arya false by choosing to side with the bad guy and blame her sister for "everything bad that happened". Later Sansa betrays Arya again by naming her a traitor to Cersei. Sansa, imagined to be more Tully than Stark, has betrayed the entire Tully ideal - Family, Duty, Honor - long before Dontos arrives in the godswood. And so, her false idol, Joff, is deceitfully replaced by a false father - Littlefinger. If we follow the fallen dominoes of Sansa's punishing ordeal back to the first, it turns out to be one kindly meant little lie to Joff - "I love riding". And its no coincidence we know that to be a lie because, of all people, it was Arya to whom she told the truth. The gods painfully demonstrate to Sansa that, "If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it", is not true. And that her unkindly meant lies and betrayals will be punished with even worse supernal wrath.

Winter is coming for Sansa, a creeping coldness in the heart that will transform her into an ice queen, if she is not shattered by the hard frost of dishonor first.

[Lady Howell]

GRRM did it because he wanted to cut Sansa off from her family as much as possible and make her feel isolated and alone and vulnerable. Lady had to go for that to happen. He did the same thing with Arya by sending Nymeria away. He figuratively killed two birds with one stone--or rather got rid of two wolves with one incident, which worked out rather cleanly. GRRM didn't have to worry about getting rid of one wolf realistically and tragically in one chapter only to get rid of the other one in some contrived circumstances later on. He got rid of both wolves realistically and tragically at the same time and it worked out well.

Whether it's a form or foreshadowing or not is a whole other deal. Could be, but I doubt it.

GRRM isn't that transparent about foreshadowing. It's usually stuff that we don't even realize is foreshadowing until after the thing happens, because it's incredibly subtle. A wolf dying is just so obvious it's actually painful to imagine.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

She has made mistakes, and they shouldn't be forgotten. Yet rape and abuse? For a thirteen year old girl? That is sick, disgusting and revolting. Is that what your viewpoint is? That what Sansa went through at the hands of Joffrey, Cersei is justice for her errors? Sansa does have a mean streak in AGOT. It shouldn't be ignored.

If GRRM's intent is to show the 'consequences' of a 13 year old girl, that result in rape and abuse, that is disgusting and I am not going to even look at it from his side. That's vile. But it isn't. A point he makes in ASOIAF is that alot of suffering is derived not from the individuals own actions, more so the powerful and wealthy, and even the Gods themselves.

Just because it came from the gods, or 'Westeros' law, doesn't make it any less revolting or gross for me. And it shouldn't for anyone else. Abuse is abuse.

If you think Sansa is 'lucky', or view what happened to her as 'justice' via the narrative (you know, being forced into a marriage, get repeated rape threats) that is utterly offensive.

I'm unsure of what you are trying to say. Just to clarify, are you trying to say that the abuse that Sansa has suffered... is some kind of justice? Some lesson? And is that okay?

[SpringKing]

Not sure who youre directing it at, but I do view Sansa's suffering as 'divine' punishment. In Sansa's case, more so from the author than than the gods, except for meeting Dontos in the godswood. It would be a lesson if only Sansa were introspective enough to understand it. She substitutes a new false storybook idol, 'Florian', for the old, Joff. Had she not betrayed Ned to Cersei just hours before the Starks were to board ship for home, the whole course of events in ASOIAF would have been altered. When Sansa does finally 'escape' by ship, it is a symmetric injustice that she has been betrayed by her new, false father.

If I were to be outraged by 'abuse', Brienne would far and away be my choice for the most unjustly abused female. The abuse Sansa has suffered is no worse than that of Arya, whose entire ordeal is a direct result of Sansa's betrayal of Ned's plan to Cersei. When Sansa names Arya as a traitor to Cersei, it's the same kind of unwitting kinslaying that her cousin Sweet Robin's inadvertent death by overdose will be.

Some of ASOIAF's abuse has no other source than a bad guy's malice. But other punishments are clearly synchronized to the corresponding sins of the abused.

I dont expect Sansa will be raped, although an enraged LF may try. Jeyne Poole is the figurative 'whipping girl' for Sansa in that respect.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

The discussion isn't about whether Sansa has suffered more or worse abuse than the other characters, but the idea that Sansa deserves that abuse as "punishment". Which you agree with since you said that what Sansa went through is 'divine punishment'. That is what is disturbing and highly problematic.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

If my father told such to me then I would demand for an answer as he is obligated to do so. It could have all been avoided if Ned had took the time to sit down with Sansa - like he did with Arya - and told the same thing he told Arya.

Ned has no obligation to do anything. Demand all you want, if he's in a rush he'll tell her later. If she were a grown woman, unrelated, Ned would have to say more but Sansa is his young daughter, he should expect her to listen.

Like a lot of immature children, Sansa didn't do as she was told. Children aren't always obedient in life, and you musn't forget that when making this claim.

Don't be too harsh on Sansa; she's already suffered enough.

Sansa is only truthful when it suits her. Her self-absorbtion is a massive character trait in her. She has no loyalty. These a her serious flaws.

[Silverin]

Ned has no obligation to do anything. Demand all you want, if he's in a rush he'll tell her later. If she were a grown woman, unrelated, Ned would have to say more but Sansa is his young daughter, he should expect her to listen.

A child psycholgist once told that if you only tell your kid not to run out to the road, he/she will very possibly still go out. You have to explain your kid why he/she shouldn't run out. That is parenting 101.

But anyway it is the parents fault if their children misbehaves. Joff was like that because Cersei spoiled him and Robert beat him.

With Sansa they dumped her on Septa Mordane. I suddenly don't remember much parenting done by either Cat or Ned.

So it is not really shocking when your kid whom you didn't really pay much attention to doesn't obey to you.

I mean Cats eldest was Robb, but her favourite was Bran. Ned loved Arya since she resembled Lyanna so much.

EDIT:

To posters who think Sansa "deserves" the abuse she gets.

I wonder wether you think tyrion would deserve to have his dick cut off after all he actually raped someone, or maybe even raped by some manly soldier, then after a miserable sexless life someone feeding him someone else (the way he did with the Singers stew), not to mention since he is kinslayer having some peculiarly gruesome death?

Just curious basically if Sansa deserves all of what she experiences for her "crimes", then I think not even burning in the seven hells for eternity would be enough for tyrion or many of the others.

[Errant Bard]

Ned has no obligation to do anything. Demand all you want, if he's in a rush he'll tell her later. If she were a grown woman, unrelated, Ned would have to say more but Sansa is his young daughter, he should expect her to listen.

When you raise children, you don't have to do anything. But if you don't speak to your children, they will do stupider things than if you had, and submitting unquestioningly to your authority is not a given, quite the contrary. That is why he speaks to Arya, because she is a bloody brat and it was evident that she would do something a hundred times more stupid than what Sansa did. He did not expect it from Sansa because he's not listening to her and takes her meekness for granted. Tough shit.

• Sansa is only truthful when it suits her.
• Her self-absorbtion is a massive character trait in her.
• She has no loyalty.

These a her serious flaws.

1 is not a flaw, it's a self-preservation skill. Arya has that one to a higher degree, too.

2 is something she shed by the time Ned got this lance in the back, so I wouldn't be bringing it up.

3 is weird: does it come only from the time she tried to stop Ned from shipping her off back to hicks country? If so, you'll have noticed that it is a one time occurrence and she wished for the rest of the story for a Lannister demise (and ever since Ned disappeared, I'm not sure who she is be supposed to be loyal to.) Also, in her own family, her aunt and her great uncle did that "betrayal" thing, so did her mother and her brother, thinking about it.

Morally, when you pray even for your enemies, you come close to a saint. Now, on a baser level, her serious flaw is her passivity so far. She has a serious lack of agency, that's not good.