Sansa loosing her wolf poosible forshadowing?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Hmm, I think that this is of the same mold as defining "Stark" values and saying Sansa (or any of the Stark kids, actually) is -or isn't- a Stark, or quantifying their "Starkness".

If Ned holds "Arryn" -not "Stark"- values, so much that he passes those values to his children, the man who passed them to him must hold those values too, otherwise it doesn't make sense. But IMO, it seems that Jon Arryn had a very different value system from Ned.

Anyway, I don't think that there are family traits that characterize individual members uniformly. There are some common 'nature' traits and 'nurture' plays an equally important role too, but each person is a unique blend. Just look at the Tullys: Hoster, the Blackfish, Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure are all very different. Is any one of them the impersonation of "family, duty, honor"? Are the rest "not Tully" or "less Tully"?

(OK, sorry for derailing - I'll stop it here).

I never said that Ned doesn't hold Stark values I said that his Arryn values are stronger considering his obsession with honor. Personally I dislike the notion of Starkness or Tullyness etc. I think that those who diminish Sansa and other characters fail to understand that the houses of Westeros are not the same as the houses of Harry Potter. It diminishes individuality and the complexity of the characters.

[butterbumps!]

It is repeated that she is like her father, if anything, but I don't see how she is as similar as for it to be common knowledge and/or a given fact. She's a girl with girlish dreams at the start, fawning over Joffrey and Loras and thinking her life is a song materialized. She herself was in part responsible for Eddard's death, for she went and ran to Cersei to inform her that he intended on returning to Winterfell, wanting to stay down there in the south with the rest of the gallant knights and future prince. None of this screams "Ned" to me, nor is it what "anyone would have done" in her situation.

These "girlish dreams" are all chivalric tales of true knights and honor. The Sansa/ Ned parallel is largely about how both are somewhat blinded by their faith in the principle of honor, and that others hold that same faith in honor they do. They are both idealists, as opposed to pragmatists, in the beginning. A certain naiveté is a by-product of this, which they both share.

I think it's really a bit silly to insist that Ned wouldn't go appeal to Cersei to inform her of his plans the way Sansa did when Ned, in fact, go to Cersei to detail his plan to challenge her prior to securing his own family which is being exposed to risk of retaliation by this meeting.

I recently made this thread that goes into more detail about it.

It is only when things get ugly that she realizes she wants to go home, a rather obvious reaction if you ask me. In her life at King's Landing she is frequently pushed around and she obeys what she is told to do. As Sandor claims, she is a little bird that sings what she is told to sing. She is enduring and she is tough for taking the abuse, but none of it similar to what Ned would do. That is not to mention she prays to both the Old Gods and the Seven, not just the Old Gods.

Perhaps a more in-depth character analysis would reveal that she is, in fact, somewhat like her father, but it is not something that would be known all too well. Either way, I repent for being part of the group that derailed this thread for bringing this "Stark" issue up. Forgive me.

Since the thread I linked goes into way more depth, I'll be brief here. Things got ugly at the Trident, did they not? Ned, the adult here, ostensibly with more wisdom and perspective, didn't realize his daughters should go home then. I suppose he missed the memo that a desire to return the parties in danger after ugliness is an obvious reaction.

[Jaysodope]

Sansa loves him, even if he's her half brother. She taught him to dance, to talk nicely to girls...She misses him (you can see this in her Alayne POV, when they are leaving the Eyrie).

Only Cat hated him.

She took a lot of cues from Catelyn, yes, but she never questioned her identity as a Stark. She thinks of herself as of the North, not of the Riverland.

Actually Sansa is a bi-theist; she prays to both gods. If anything, its explicitly stated by one of her servants in King's Landing that she spends more time in the godswood than in the sept.

She does see Jon as a brother. While they weren't as close as Jon and Arya were, she loved him and wanted to see him, and Jon thinks of her fondly, about the times she taught him how to dance and talk to girls, and stuff like that. She's aware that he's her half-brother, but so are the other children and especially Jon himself.

Actually the death of Lady did the opposite. Lady's death was the first taste of monsters for Sansa it was the first time she got disillusioned by the South's splendor. And no Sansa prays to both the old and new gods.

Except she does see him as her brother and loves him dearly. She taught him to dance, how to talk to girls for christ sake she based Alayne Stone on Jon. Technically he is her half-brother and she isn't the only one who says so. Both Bran and Arya also remark that he is both a bastard and their half-brother.

Maybe I actually started my reread today and I'll pay a little extra attention to it this time around. While do this sansa cares for him I do not think she thinks of him as her true brother as she thinks of bran or arya. Aslo if I remember correctly she doesn't really start to think of jon up until all of her other siblings are dead or thought to be dead. To her he is all that's left that why I think she begins to think of him.

And in the book where she says she spends more time in the gods woods than the sept that's because she met with sir dantos in the gods woods. I believe in book one she specifically states she prefers her mothers gods over her fathers.

[Jaysodope]

I meant robb not arya I apologize for the typos yo it's early lol

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Besides Sansa took part in Ned's captive and her own. Never his death. I find it annoying that you guys magically seem to forget how Sansa tried to amend her mistake.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Maybe I actually started my reread today and I'll pay a little extra attention to it this time around. While do this sansa cares for him I do not think she thinks of him as her true brother as she thinks of bran or arya. Aslo if I remember correctly she doesn't really start to think of jon up until all of her other siblings are dead or thought to be dead. To her he is all that's left that why I think she begins to think of him.

And in the book where she says she spends more time in the gods woods than the sept that's because she met with sir dantos in the gods woods. I believe in book one she specifically states she prefers her mothers gods over her fathers.

The reason why she didn't think of him and the rest of her family that much was because it hurt too much to think about them. You will read that in one of her chapters in ACOK. Sansa didn't went to the Godswood only for plotting to get away, but also to pray. In fact she is sad at the end of ASOS that there is no Weirwood in the Eyrie that should tell enough she also prayed in the godswood.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Maybe I actually started my reread today and I'll pay a little extra attention to it this time around. While do this sansa cares for him I do not think she thinks of him as her true brother as she thinks of bran or arya. Aslo if I remember correctly she doesn't really start to think of jon up until all of her other siblings are dead or thought to be dead. To her he is all that's left that why I think she begins to think of him.

And in the book where she says she spends more time in the gods woods than the sept that's because she met with sir dantos in the gods woods. I believe in book one she specifically states she prefers her mothers gods over her fathers.

First bolded: How is her not thinking of Jon "as her true brother" a mark against her character (if that is what you are saying)? Of course she doesn't think of Jon as her true brother. He isn't.

Second bolded: Sure, in Book 1 she's more into the Seven. See, that's the thing with character progression: she changes over the course of the story. It'd be pretty dull to read if nobody evolved from one book to the next! :D

[ARYa_Nym]

Being religious can be another comparison to Catelyn. I think Catelyn is very religious. Ned is too to a lesser extent. Valuing the Seven would be a point in her favor to those who want her to be a savvy queen to Aegon (which I see as unlikely).

Arya would be different here with her growing nihilism.

[Annara Snow]

Robb was called the "Young Wolf" often, there were tales of his endeavors, and he was often compared to his dad, for having the same fierce sense of honor. I believe GRRM's intention with his death was to portray how honor had killed them both. Knowing this, why would anyone question him like they question Sansa?

Yes, people from the great Houses get referred to by their sigils. Sansa was called "that little she-wolf" by Cersei after she ran away from KL, and the popular rumour was that Sansa turned into a wolf with bat wings and flew away after she killed Joffrey with a spell.

[Beathag]

When Ghost is bounding about whilst Jon is sleeping, Ghost/Jon think on the one that is gone. Does anyone think that Lady survived? Why doesn't Ghost sense both Greywind and Lady are dead? If this had been brought up previously, sorry

[WierWood Wolf]

While Sansa loses her Direwolf early on in GoT, she never loses her Northern blood or Stark identity. Sansa if anything is a survivor. Yes she is a victim throughout the books and it pisses a lot of people off that she is so meek. But really what choice does she have.

Now that she is away from KL and Lannister influence, I think we will see some of the actions of what we think of as What the Starks really stand for. Honestly until this point in the story any aggressive moves would have meant death for Sansa.

Sansa will show us her Northern nature in a big way. I would be disappointed if it is otherwise.

[Warden of the Reach]

I recently made this thread that goes into more detail about it.

Good thread

[Queen Sansa Stark]

While Sansa loses her Direwolf early on in GoT, she never loses her Northern blood or Stark identity. Sansa if anything is a survivor. Yes she is a victim throughout the books and it pisses a lot of people off that she is so meek. But really what choice does she have.

Now that she is away from KL and Lannister influence, I think we will see some of the actions of what we think of as What the Starks really stand for. Honestly until this point in the story any aggressive moves would have meant death for Sansa.

Sansa will show us her Northern nature in a big way. I would be disappointed if it is otherwise.

Ironically those who do have such an issue that Sansa is so passive never seem to give any explanation how an eleven year old girl who is a war hostage in a hostile environment should react without getting beaten black and blue.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Sansa sells her family out a few times. That whole teenage girl thing really did a number on the Starks.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think that when Sansa says in AGOT that she prefers her mothers gods the seven, she explains why, that she loves the songs, the pretty Crystals and the incense. basically she likes all the pomp and ceremony. All very superficial reasons to go to church. But we see in KL when she is captive that she preys to both, and her visits to the Sept eventually grow much fewer than to the Godswood. Yes she is visiting the Godswood to meet Ser Dontos but she does Prey whilst there.

When she is in the Eyrie she remarks on the lack of Weirwood. We as readers don't need to have this pointed out or explained as Cat has already given us the story back in AGOT. GRRM is telling us that Sansa notes there is no Weirwood there. Because it matters to her. She does not visit the Sept at the Eyrie at all btw.

I always think that people saying sansa is less a Stark than the others don't really know how to read.

Sansa is as much a Stark as any of her siblings, she is like Ned in some ways like Lyanna in others she is also like her mum but not exclusively like anyone but of course herself. Having red hair doesn't make her a Tully. The main reason I think so many get so fixated on this is that LF mentions it ALL the time. Because he's besotted with Cat to the point of a very unhealthy obsession. Others too note it because they know the Tully look and because Sansa is growing into an extremely beautiful woman, non of that stops her being a Stark. Sansa thinks of herself as a Stark & is by birth a Stark, she has Stark blood running through her veins. People don't tend to comment on male's looks as much, Robb whilst we know from AGOT looks more Tully than Stark no one really brings it up as he is a lad, a lord and then a King. Oh your grace you look so like the parent whose lineage you do not attain ruler-ship through, said no subject ever..Bran & rickon are surrounded by people who have known them all their lives in Winterfell it would be mighty odd for them to suddenly start commenting on the boys looks, and then they are isolated and away from people who know their mother, I can't imagine a COTF giving two shits what colour Brans Hair is. and we have no idea what anyone is saying to Rickon.

People I have noted have tried to argue that she is no longer a Stark because of her marriage, But I also note that in the next breath they speak of Cat as though she is not a Stark, but a Tully, yet she and Ned were just as married, arguably a lot more married that Tyrion & Sansa. You can't have it both ways either a married woman whilst she takes her husbands name remains herself or she becomes completely the house she has been wed into.

I'd say texturally the evidence suggests the former, as we see multiple women referred to by their maiden name, and think of themselves as still of their birth house in spite of being married.

[SpringKing]

Sansa sells her family out a few times. That whole teenage girl thing really did a number on the Starks.

Sansa sells herself out as well, losing Lady because she lies, and losing an early exit from KL because she betrays Ned's plan to Cersei. Had Ned more time to beef up security against Cersei, its possible her coup against him and the Stark retainers may have been forestalled.

Sansa has been her own worst enemy.

[cocoalover1956]

Sansa sells her family out a few times. That whole teenage girl thing really did a number on the Starks.

Ned, Cat, and Robb are the Starks most responsible for what to their family, since they're the ones who have any sort of power. Sansa is a child with very limited influence.

Sansa sells herself out as well, losing Lady because she lies, and losing an early exit from KL because she betrays Ned's plan to Cersei. Had Ned more time to beef up security against Cersei, its possible her coup against him and the Stark retainers may have been forestalled.

Sansa has been her own worst enemy.

She did not lose Lady because she lied; she lost Lady because Cersei wanted blood spilled in retaliation for Joffrey's injury. Do you honestly believe that Cersei would have spared Lady if Sansa said, "Joffrey lied. He attacked Arya and Nymeria was defending her."?

Ned betrays Ned's plan to Cersei in the godswood when he told her everything he knew and planned to do. And he did beef up security...with treacherous goldcloaks. And Cersei's coup may have been forestalled if Ned had arrested her and her children like Renly planned. Sansa talking to Cersei was a drop in the ocean.

[Nymeria Stone]

I was expecting Lady's death to be some kind of foreshadowing, but now I just think it was a matter of plot. Sansa's arc takes place on castles and involves constantly interaction with important lords, and on such times she just can't have a direwolf around her, or worry about warg bounds.

If anything, it does NOT make her less Stark than any of her siblings.

[SpringKing]

She did not lose Lady because she lied; she lost Lady because Cersei wanted blood spilled in retaliation for Joffrey's injury. Do you honestly believe that Cersei would have spared Lady if Sansa said, "Joffrey lied. He attacked Arya and Nymeria was defending her."?

Ned betrays Ned's plan to Cersei in the godswood when he told her everything he knew and planned to do. And he did beef up security...with treacherous goldcloaks. And Cersei's coup may have been forestalled if Ned had arrested her and her children like Renly planned. Sansa talking to Cersei was a drop in the ocean.

Had Sansa told the truth, it would have been 2-1 against Joff's lie. At that point Cersei would have had all she could handle defending Joff. The focus would then have shifted to punishing Joff, not punishing an innocent wolf. At worst Cersei might have demanded that Sansa give Lady up.

No doubt Ned played poorly but its no coincidence that after Sansa tattles to Cersei, "a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside." While Ned provided Cersei with cause, Sansa provided her with reason to pull the trigger. To mix some metaphors - Sansa dropping the dime on Ned's escape plan for his daughters was the drop in the ocean that broke the camel's back.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Had Sansa told the truth, it would have been 2-1 against Joff's lie. At that point Cersei would have had all she could handle defending Joff. The focus would then have shifted to punishing Joff, not punishing an innocent wolf. At worst Cersei might have demanded that Sansa give Lady up.

No doubt Ned played poorly but its no coincidence that after Sansa tattles to Cersei, "a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside." While Ned provided Cersei with cause, Sansa provided her with reason to pull the trigger. To mix some metaphors - Sansa dropping the dime on Ned's escape plan for his daughters was the drop in the ocean that broke the camel's back.

Since we're dealing with hypotheticals, I would argue that Cersei would never ever ever hear anything bad against her Joffrey. He's a major blind spot for her. She absolutely cannot see him for what we know he is really. (She completely lacks self-awareness as well.) All she knows is that Joff is like her, therefore he is perfect. So I'm guessing she would just try another tack, until she got what she wanted. Perhaps the death of a wolf (any wolf) in her mind solidified Joffrey's "innocence".

Also, I wanted to say - that was some awesome metaphor-mixing! :thumbsup:

(Edited because spelling.)