Who's the most controversial ASoIaF character?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Are people even being sincere when they apologize for Cersei?

Like, a lot of things happen on tumblr where people just try to be edgy for the sake of it, and there doesn't seem to be much Cersei apologists here.

Yes they are being sincere. Cersei apologists arent exactly commonplace, but when they crop up, they are sincere. I remember one being particularly egregious...

[Ser Onaventea Helms]

I would say Dany and Stannis, purely because of how HBO has butchered them. Exclusively without any other influence, Tyrion.

[WeddinGuest]

Are people even being sincere when they apologize for Cersei?

Like, a lot of things happen on tumblr where people just try to be edgy for the sake of it, and there doesn't seem to be much Cersei apologists here.

It depends on where you look, but I've definitely seen many Cersei stans who seriously believe that, basically, if she had grown up in some ideal non-sexist society, that she'd have been a great ruler, and that all her problematic acts can be blamed on her upbringing by Tywin, and Robert's poor treatment of her during their marriage. Such stans either conveniently ignore her throwing Mellara down the well, or claim there's no proof that she did this. They also tend to ignore her twisting Tyrion's penis or state "she was just a child" and it can be dismissed, or "it's understandable because she was traumatized by Joanna's death". Though to me, these acts I think are a pretty strong hint by GRRM that there was something "off" with Cersei from the start, much like Joff and his cutting open a cat to see kittens as a kid.

I will give them that perhaps Cersei wouldn't have been quite as bad if she had less to be angry and resentful about, but Joff pretty much got everything he wanted and still turned out the way he did, so while I do have some sympathy for Cersei (I did feel sorry for her when she had to watch Joff die, and I do think Robert's behavior was abusive at times), I'd still firmly place her in the "dark grey, near-black" end of the good/evil spectrum.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

My picks: (I wrote something on Catelyn, yet it just turned into steaming rage about the fandoms treatment of her,)

Arya~ A psychopathic remorseless killer, a misogynist (thanks, show), badass who sticks people with the pointy end, dragon fanatic, incapable of compassion (?), a tomboy, Bart Simpson with extreme anger issues, or a traumatized child. I do love Sansa Stark, yet it does sadden me how some people, in an attempt to make Sansa look better, dismiss Arya's arc or trauma. Arya fans are just as guilty, however.

Tyrion~ A humorous individual who has suffered abuse all his life, the coolest character in the whole entire series, the 'good' Lannister, an outright villain, someone who doesn't understand Cersei, a misogynist, champion of the underdogs or self absorbed.

[CaptainTheo]

I agree that Arya is controversial, starting out as an innocent good-natured mischevious tomboy and turning into a serial killer. That's one of the reasons I love this series so much, as the character development (or regression) is so fascinating.

Although he's my favourite character, Tyrion I also found more controversial from the end of ASOS after he murdered Shae and Tywin and also some of what he does in ADWD.

I also found Dany controversial after she sacked Astapor and committed attrocities against the other slave cities (attacked Yunkai having told the envoys she'd give them days to negotiate, nailed people from Mereen to crosses). Dany gets my vote for the most controversial character.

Jaime too... he goes in the other direction, appearing to become a better man. I find him fascinating also.

Stannis and Cersei too. Cersei is pretty obvious, while Stannis has no problems burning people alive, even his former Hand, or taking the fingers off the man he knighted.'

Catelyn to an extent due to her mistreatment of Jon, arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime.

Not Sansa though - although she's another of my favourite characters and has interesting character development, I can't recall her committing too many controversial acts, more that she's polarising. Not Jon either, he mainly seems to do his best to play by the rules. Bran not really, only in terms of his warging of Hodor.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

This topic is so meta. It is in itself turning into another Dany/Stannis argument thread.

[Joey Crows]

Stannis, Cat, Jamie, and Dany are all polarizing. Controversial though, hmm, I'd have to say that Arya is controversial. She is a character that is ostensibly "good", yet she is a killer. She has murdered and will probably murder again, and not for revenge or justice even. She is a dark heart who grew up under the auspice of the noble Stark house and the honor that came with it. To me, she is a fantastic character who should be considered controversial.

[greensleeves]

Tyrion.

In part because the show has built him up to be a purely good, heroic character (very different from the books).

[Lady Howell]

Are people even being sincere when they apologize for Cersei?

Like, a lot of things happen on tumblr where people just try to be edgy for the sake of it, and there doesn't seem to be much Cersei apologists here.

People are very quick to either blame Robert for why she's so messed up--and use that as an excuse for most if not all the horrible things she did before and after his death--or point to her "love" for her children as a redeeming quality. Apparently redeeming enough to excuse some of her most blatantly malicious actions.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

People are very quick to either blame Robert for why she's so messed up--and use that as an excuse for most if not all the horrible things she did before and after his death--or point to her "love" for her children as a redeeming quality. Apparently redeeming enough to excuse some of her most blatantly malicious actions.

Yeah, and we have characters such as Gilly who have gone through extreme trauma and sexual abuse, and has not turned into a pro- genocide maniac. I do not like pitying victims of abuse against each other, yet when people excuse or gloss over Cersei's actions- especially in regards to Sansa, Alayaya and Margaery and still deem her as a feminist champion- yeah, people need to actually review what characters are worth your sympathy and support, and who are better left to rot.

Controversial though, hmm, I'd have to say that Arya is controversial. She is a character that is ostensibly "good", yet she is a killer. She has murdered and will probably murder again, and not for revenge or justice even. She is a dark heart who grew up under the auspice of the noble Stark house and the honor that came with it. To me, she is a fantastic character who should be considered controversial.

:agree:

Arya's a great character to discuss. She is so wonderfully fleshed out, well written, capable of good and evil, challenges tropes given to tomboys, child warriors, sisters, etc. Her arc is imo, a strong contender for most tragic arc in ASOIAF. She's my favourite character, for a good reason.

Not Sansa though - although she's another of my favourite characters and has interesting character development, I can't recall her committing too many controversial acts, more that she's polarising.

Yeah, Sansa and the fandom reaction is hard to talk about, the sides are pretty clear. I think when Sansa's arc is discussed, it does rise controversial subjects and challenge society's perceptions, such as to teenage girls, politics, education and as well as a sexual component (virginity and periods) that makes people feel uncomfortable.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Wait, what? Arya a misogynist? Where this this BS idea come from? I agree, Arya is an amazing, tragic character whose is often branded as either a psychopath or simply a sword wielding badass. Not that she isn't a huge badass.

[Lady of Lemoncakes]

Wait, what? Arya a misogynist? Where this this BS idea come from? I agree, Arya is an amazing, tragic character whose is often branded as either a psychopath or simply a sword wielding badass. Not that she isn't a huge badass.

Yeah, this terrible concept of Arya being a misogynist is well, from the social justice wannabes *cough* tumblr *cough* and other forums. They think this because:

• (show only) her "most girls are idiots" line.

Her arc interacts with predominately male characters, and her key relationships are male.

She isn't interested in 'feminine' pursuits such as sewing and marriage. Therefore: ignoring feminine activities (as you must look down on them) = sexism.

Of course, this is rubbish and ignores the fact that Arya was bullied by Jeyne and Sansa, offered to help Sansa make a new dress, doesn't really choose who she crosses paths with, there is nothing wrong with liking the outdoors, and most importantly, she is 9, or eleven in the show. It's kind of unfair to drop an assumption of a person being sexist when they haven't been given a chance to mature, etc.

Yep, I do think Arya is a badass- I love her sense of justice and her protective streak, as well as her fierce attitude. Such traits were prominent before her world and family was destroyed. Yet when she kills people, leaves Harranhaul... that is just tragic.

[harry_dresden]

People are very quick to either blame Robert for why she's so messed up--and use that as an excuse for most if not all the horrible things she did before and after his death--or point to her "love" for her children as a redeeming quality. Apparently redeeming enough to excuse some of her most blatantly malicious actions.

I find this argument extradonarily weak for several reasons.

Also, I believe it was sapphire_lion that posted a GREAT argument as to why this Cersei excusing is a very UNfeminist thing to do.

It went that Cersei is probably the only villain among the fanbase that's really excused because of circumstances. Her fans make her out to be a victim because she is a woman.

Its not that she can't be judged as a irreemable shit like Ramsay or Joff, but she needs an excuse because she's a woman.

Furthermore saying that the sexist society that Cersei has grown up with is what caused her to fail is bullshit.

A strong character is one that OVERCOMES obstacles, not one that falls to them.

I agree its a very unfeminist argument to excuse Cersei.

[WeddinGuest]

The recent Theon topics make me think he's pretty controversial too. However, unlike other controversial characters such as Tyrion, Cat, Sansa, or Stannis, I really don't think Theon really has that many people who actually LIKE him. There are many people who feel sorry for him, or think he gets unfair criticism, but not to the point where they actively root for him the way do for these other characters.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Yeah, this terrible concept of Arya being a misogynist is well, from the social justice wannabes *cough* tumblr *cough* and other forums. They think this because:

• (show only) her "most girls are idiots" line.

Her arc interacts with predominately male characters, and her key relationships are male.

She isn't interested in 'feminine' pursuits such as sewing and marriage. Therefore: ignoring feminine activities (as you must look down on them) = sexism.

Of course, this is rubbish and ignores the fact that Arya was bullied by Jeyne and Sansa, offered to help Sansa make a new dress, doesn't really choose who she crosses paths with, there is nothing wrong with liking the outdoors, and most importantly, she is 9, or eleven in the show. It's kind of unfair to drop an assumption of a person being sexist when they haven't been given a chance to mature, etc.

Yep, I do think Arya is a badass- I love her sense of justice and her protective streak, as well as her fierce attitude. Such traits were prominent before her world and family was destroyed. Yet when she kills people, leaves Harranhaul... that is just tragic.

Ung dis post. :)

Like, i guess i was a raging misogynist when i was a little girl. Cuz i acted the exact same way. I guess im a sexist jerk by default, eh? Pfffft, yeah. That shits so dumb. Like, come on, i think every tomboyish little girl has said "most girls are stupid" at one point in our lives. (and tomboyish girls often are the ones who grow up to be staunch feminists. :P)

Hang on. Just hang about. Your third bullet point.

PEOPLE ACTUALLY ARGUE THAT SHIT? What.

The recent Theon topics make me think he's pretty controversial too. However, unlike other controversial characters such as Tyrion, Cat, Sansa, or Stannis, I really don't think Theon really has that many people who actually LIKE him. There are many people who feel sorry for him, or think he gets unfair criticism, but not to the point where they actively root for him the way do for these other characters.

Oh a lot of people actually do like Theon. Most of these fans just really didnt root for him until post-Reeking. You'll find a knot of fans who do genuinely root for Theon as he stands now. Very very few did before Character Development though. Theon is not my favorite character and his actions cheese me off to no end. However, i think he is among the best written in the series. His ADwD stuff is glorious.

[Lord Reaver]

Oh, I did root for Theon. Right up to the point where he caved to Reek and ignored his sister's advice. But then I rooted for Robb right up to the point where he went and married some tart from the westerlands, too. I rooted for Ned until he went mad and told his enemy his plans, and I rooted for Daenerys until she started crucifying innocents.

Basically, by this point, there's hardly any characters I root for that I do not expect to disappoint me in a short amount of time/pages.

[Florina Laufeyson]

^not even the Others?

[Frances Bean Corbray]

^not even the Others?

Well, they have been taking their sweet time getting this whole Apocalyptic Threat To All Humanity ball rolling...

I'm not worried though. I can handle a little delayed gratification. (LOL WRONG SERIES TO FOLLOW IF YOU CAN'T, M I RITE)

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Yeah, this terrible concept of Arya being a misogynist is well, from the social justice wannabes *cough* tumblr *cough* and other forums. They think this because:

• (show only) her "most girls are idiots" line.

Her arc interacts with predominately male characters, and her key relationships are male.

She isn't interested in 'feminine' pursuits such as sewing and marriage. Therefore: ignoring feminine activities (as you must look down on them) = sexism.

Of course, this is rubbish and ignores the fact that Arya was bullied by Jeyne and Sansa, offered to help Sansa make a new dress, doesn't really choose who she crosses paths with, there is nothing wrong with liking the outdoors, and most importantly, she is 9, or eleven in the show. It's kind of unfair to drop an assumption of a person being sexist when they haven't been given a chance to mature, etc.

Yep, I do think Arya is a badass- I love her sense of justice and her protective streak, as well as her fierce attitude. Such traits were prominent before her world and family was destroyed. Yet when she kills people, leaves Harranhaul... that is just tragic.

Those who believe that Arya is a misogynist are heavenly misguided. And nobody on Tumblr believes Arya is a misogynist either on the contrary. ASOIAF fans on Tumblr were pretty pissed about Arya's line in the tv-show: "Girls are stupid". Arya would have never ever said such thing. Miraculously enough Arya does not have internalized misogyny whatsoever. Cersei is the only Female POV character who has internalized misogyny. And Sansa didn't bully Arya. That was Jeyne's doing. She didn't say anything about it, which was wrong, but she never bullied Arya.

[OrangeStallion]

Daenerys seems to either really make people excited or turn people off entirely. And I agree that Cersei is only controversial because she has "apologists" who try to justify all that she does because poor her "she's a woman in a man's world everyone would do the same thing," instead of realizing that Margaery is also the a woman in the same rule and doesn't exhibit the power greediness, or at least exhibits the phrase "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

Other controversial characters include Jaime and Theon.

Rhaegar and Lyanna are kind of controversial also because while some see them as tragic romantics, others see them as selfish (or in Rhaegar's place, an adulterous asshole). I like listening to all the opinions though because it just goes to show how genius GRRM is because he can write so many characters that can be viewed so may different way.