Heresy 97 the Children of the Forest

[Melifeather]

We discussed Val in great detail. Someone I wonder about as having possible connection to CotF is Tormund Giantsbane.

Tormund other names include, hornblower, icebreaker, speaker to the gods, Thunderfist and my favorite , talltalker and Mead King of Ruddy Hall.

Anyone else think he's anything more than a big blowhard?

ETA: speaker to the gods and father of hosts.

He also tells Jon that he's not fond o'Starks.

Sounds like a first men house to me. The bronze and iron connects back to the Reed 's oath and the words of the pact that someone just brought up(forgot who). Add in the Stark's crown and thats two FM bronze and iron connections.

Of course this does not prove FM with iron at the time of the pact, but is still a connection

ETA It was Feather Crystal who mentioned the oath

Feather Crystal must be right. Now, what reason would the Arryns or Andals have to swear an oath like that?

“

by earth and water. The Singers?

by bronze and iron. The FM and Andals?

ice and fire. ??

Where do the FM fit in? And who represents ice, and who fire? Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed before.

ETA: aDanceWithFlagons suggests FM for bronze and JNR suggests perhaps iron for Andals

I like Wolfmaid's idea that the fire and ice is what happens when the oath is broken.

To recap:

Earth and Water represent the elements of the Singers.

Bronze and Iron represent the weapons of First Men ( and now I believe includes Andals)

Fire and Ice are the consequences all parties accept if the Pact is broken.

Since the histories were written down thousands of years after the fact, it appears the Andals have been conveniently left out of the Pact.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

This is a CotF-related question to the extent that the Ghost of High Heart may be a CotF:

Why did she have that violent reaction to Arya?

Good question, because I find her statement that she "gorged on grief at Summerhall" to be puzzling. The word "gorged" could just mean "filled," but normally it implies an element of greed or gluttony. And that makes me wonder about an element of vengeance being involved at Summerhall for the GOHH.

What's the difference when it comes to Arya? Is it just that Arya's vengeance is not the GOHH's vengeance, and the GOHH is already "full up?" Or - and this intrigues me - was the grief at Summerhall not a function of her vengeance at all, but possibly Bloodraven's?

We've wondered why the COTF need or want human greenseers, and one idea is that they need humans to access the human world/mind. To shape that a little bit... I want to borrow a thought from the work of Susanna Clarke, whose stories and worlds are quite different from Martin's, but who certainly work swith the same source material when it comes to fairies/Sidhe. From one of Clarke's fictional academic citations, we get the following:

"A fairy is a native inhabitant of Faerie, a land connected only magically to England. Fairies are of an ancient and remarkably long-lived race, but one in which the rational power is weak while the aptitude for magic is very strong. The author Richard Chaston wrote that "men and fairies both contain within them a faculty of reason and a faculty of magic. In men reason is strong and magic is weak. With fairies it is the other way round: magic comes very naturally to them, but by human standards they are barely sane."[25]

This deficiency of rational power puts fairies at a disadvantage in all matters which require organization, prolonged consideration or sustained effort. They generally lack that firm purpose and strength of will which cannot be deflected by disappointments or reverses: their moods and interests quickly change. They are also considered (by 'Christians', as they refer to mortal beings) to be "irredeemably indolent". Consequently it is difficult for fairies to agree a course of action among themselves, and hence it is often found that they will allow 'Christians' to take complete charge of their affairs. John Uskglass, Stephen Black and Alessandro Simonelli all became rulers of fairy kingdoms [68]. When led by active, effective kings the fairies can become formidable, as was shown by the successful invasion of Northern England in 1110 by the Fairy Host under the young Uskglass."

Different authors, different stories. But I wonder if something similar could be going on with the COTF and their human greenseers? "Men would be wroth," Bran says. So, are the COTF capable of defending themselves effectively without the partnership of humans? History would say no, they are not. And perhaps the Hammer of the waters, the shattering of the Arm of Dorne, etc... are simply illustrations of the inability of the COTF to understand the complexity and adaptability of humankind. To defeat humans, you need to know your enemy - and you might need to recruit someone willing to work an "inside job."

The GOHH, if she is a COTF, would be an interesting case though - because her story is that she made a human friend in Jenny of Oldstones. And her base of operations is well south of the Wall - so, who knows how "connected" she'd be with the Singers up Leaf/Bloodraven's way.

(Also, if it's not a sinister kind of gorging at all... ie, if she "gorged" on the beauty of Rhaegar's beautiful singing, say - well that'd be different. And I'd be fairly confident that Arya and Rhaegar come at grief from different angles...)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Something just dawned on me. If the oath the Reeds repeated included bronze and IRON, wouldn't that imply it included the Andals? The First Men wouldn't have had iron.

I think when the Iron Islands were founded, Iron came to Westeros, the Islands and House Greyiron were named that for a reason. The Andals brought steel, IMO.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think when the Iron Islands were founded, Iron came to Westeros, the Islands and House Greyiron were named that for a reason. The Andals brought steel, IMO.

Yes, I like this. Its possible the Islands were connected to the mainland pre Hammer of the Waters (as Tyryan suggested). If so that would make easier access to the iron ore. Plus the FM had plenty of wood to burn for smelting. Weirwood charcoal?

[Black Crow]

Can we close this one down please and movethis very conversation across to Heresy 98.

[History of Westeros]

Maester Luwin refers to the Andals coming with steel, and as we know the crown of the Kings of Winter was bronze with iron swords. Its reasonable to suppose that at least some of the First Men had iron before the Andals arrived. It would however imply a relatively late date for the Pact

It would be rather ridiculous to think that no iron/steel ever made it across the Narrow sea. Ironworking was taught to the Andals by the Rhoynar, who had tons of ships, and it's not exactly a long journey.

I think the most sensible thing is this: Ironworking was either rare or not at all done in Westeros for a time, but iron goods made their way over from time to time. At some point, ironworking started happening in Essos, but by the time the Andals invaded, the FM were relatively new at it (making crowns for kings, and swords for champions perhaps, but not shoes for horses, and not spearheads for the common man at arms, perhaps... that sort of thing.) So it was still a huge technological edge for the Andals.

[History of Westeros]

Can we close this one down please and movethis very conversation across to Heresy 98.

Oops, sorry.