aDanceWithFlagons Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 This info is from the wiki but perhaps we're onto something: House Royce of Runestone are an old noble house, perhaps the most powerful bannermen to House Arryn.[Citation Needed] House Royce's seat is the ancestral castle Runestone, located on the coast of the narrow sea. . . .They blazon their arms with black iron studs on bronze, bordered with runes [1] and their motto, is "We Remember".[2]http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Royce]http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Royce[/url Sam describes writing dating prior to the Septons in the Castle Black library as marks on rocks. Sounds like Runic. Sounds like a first men house to me. The bronze and iron connects back to the Reed 's oath and the words of the pact that someone just brought up(forgot who). Add in the Stark's crown and thats two FM bronze and iron connections. Of course this does not prove FM with iron at the time of the pact, but is still a connectionETA It was Feather Crystal who mentioned the oath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 No doubt about this at all. Quote actually says runes! Now, how it is that the Royces still fit this ancient bronze armor with runes... thousands of years and dozens of generations later... is anybody's guess... Feather Crystal must be right. Now, what reason would the Arryns or Andals have to swear an oath like that? “ by earth and water. The Singers? by bronze and iron. The FM and Andals? ice and fire. ?? Where do the FM fit in? And who represents ice, and who fire? Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed before. ETA: aDanceWithFlagons suggests FM for bronze and JNR suggests perhaps iron for Andals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theREALjonsnow Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Sure. Obsidian holds an incredibly sharp edge, despite being brittle, so it has many practical uses. BTW, despite our difference of opinion over Jon killing Ygritte, you recently had an idea so good I passed it on to someone else. (You will have to guess which idea.) not a clue... which one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Feather Crystal must be right. Now, what reason would the Arryns or Andals have to swear an oath like that? Could be wrong, but I had understood FC to be suggesting the Reed oath was no older than the Andals (because of the iron reference)... but still only sworn by the Reeds. My own belief is that it is newer than the Pact, at least. Whatever its origin, it almost certainly reflects an ancient connection between the Starks and the Reeds that doesn't apply to other houses sworn to Winterfell. It's very tempting to guess about that connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Everything is put in motion when Jon reaches maturity. They now have a viable possible Targ King. Something has to kick the events in the North in motion, and Bloodraven and Aemon on site is very suspicious ... two Targs in position of political power. ( I use political to differentiate from the magical powers that may be in play.) No, I disagree with this one entirely. The Direwolves and Ghost in particular, who "belongs to the Old Gods" have nothing to do with the Targaryen succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 N, I disagree with this one entirely. The Direwolves and Ghost in particular, who "belongs to the Old Gods" have nothing to do with the Targaryen succession. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 The First Men had bronze weapons. The Andals brought iron to Westeros. Maester Luwin refers to the Andals coming with steel, and as we know the crown of the Kings of Winter was bronze with iron swords. Its reasonable to suppose that at least some of the First Men had iron before the Andals arrived. It would however imply a relatively late date for the Pact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 ETA: aDanceWithFlagons suggests FM for bronze and JNR suggests perhaps iron for AndalsI meant bronze and iron for FM. Some people say bronze for FM - iron for andals.The idea that it was the words spoken between Singers and FM as the 'handshake' on the pact goes likeSingers - I swear by earth and waterMen - I swear by bronze and ironBoth - We swear by fire and iceIt is my take (and others) on the wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Feather Crystal must be right. Now, what reason would the Arryns or Andals have to swear an oath like that? “ by earth and water. The Singers? by bronze and iron. The FM and Andals? ice and fire. ?? Where do the FM fit in? And who represents ice, and who fire? Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed before. ETA: aDanceWithFlagons suggests FM for bronze and JNR suggests perhaps iron for Andals Ninja'd by Flagons; we did indeed come to the conclusion that the Singers swore by Earth and Water, the First Men by bronze and iron (per the crown of winter and the Royce armour) and that the Singers and the First men jointly swore by Ice and Fire - the Ice which the Singers used to bring about the breaking of the Arm and the hammer of the waters, and the Fire which Men used to destroy the weirwoods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Dang you guys beat me to it....What BC and ADWF said basically ice and fire are the magical elements that utilized alongside the physical weaponry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 @DanceWithFlagons and Black Crow ETA and Wolfmaid -- Thanks for the oath matching. TonightTuesdayTuesday night through wednesday nightThursday and thursday night Snow/Rain You know it's bad when they stop listing the days individually.Guess I am not going over the mountains this weekend. Winter is wut?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 OK boys and girls, I'm about to head off to work and won't be able to post again for another 8 hours. Thank you all so very very much for your participation in the Centennial Seven project. Heresy 98 is about to open, so please continue the conversation there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 What is the next thread topic for heresy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Could be wrong, but I had understood FC to be suggesting the Reed oath was no older than the Andals (because of the iron reference)... but still only sworn by the Reeds. My own belief is that it is newer than the Pact, at least. Whatever its origin, it almost certainly reflects an ancient connection between the Starks and the Reeds that doesn't apply to other houses sworn to Winterfell. It's very tempting to guess about that connection. I agree, it sounds like they tacked it onto the end of the Bannerman's oath. Kindof like they are invoking or binding when they utter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Disagree, its the invocation of the elements which establishes a very early origin. The bannerman oath is obviously quite recent; but the swearing is old... and otherwise forgotten, its not some legal formality. Anyway, that's it, I'm off. Switch the lights out and move across to Heresy 98 by the end of this page, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 There was already a Targ King while BR and Aemon were in there seats of power. If BR could manipulate the political aspects from his ww throne, then why didnt he save the Targs already in power.?Bloodraven isn't all powerful, and it seems that it takes some time to get the old powers rolling. The revolt happened to fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If this is true and the Targs are suiting up with their magic to take back power, then why do we hear no mention of Valaryian intervention during the first long night? It seems to me something else has happened (which is being repeated). GRRM is a student of history, and if there is a theme we see time and time again it is that history will repeat itself. Unless GRRM has yet to reveal the Valaryian (or Targ) intervention that caused the first long night, then why would we assume they are just taking advantage of this? Seems like this soloution creates more questions than answers and at this point in the books some doors need to start closing.The Targs had nothing to do with the first Long Night. This new one is more of a situational operation with convergent interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I am more inclined to agree with Black Crow that from the CoTF perspective men are men. First Men, Andals, Valyrians... what does it matter they are all just men. Especially after thousands of years and the intermixing of the groups, I am not sure how any outsider would be able to draw the line. Its almost purely a social construct.In any case I am not sure what BR and Aemon have to offer the CoTF in this pact? The only thing I could think of is some way to open the gates to the wall or bring the wall down neither of which they seem to be trying to do. If BR and Aemon have been plotting to restore Targs to power why would they put all their eggs in the Jon Snow basket?I don't know what the Singers get from the deal, maybe one more day in the sun? As for Jon, he is the only Targ game in town, since the others are out of reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I don't think they were counting on Jon to be on their side. You are assuming Jon is a Targaryen. I happen to think that he isn't.He's not, I am. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagda Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 No, I disagree with this one entirely. The Direwolves and Ghost in particular, who "belongs to the Old Gods" have nothing to do with the Targaryen succession.Bloodraven ( probably ) sent them. It's part of what I have been saying, the Singers are being used as well as having their own agenda. ( I need coffee .... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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