Daenerys Targaryen A born Leader, but a Terrible Ruler

[Nictarion]

In the light of this, I'd expect Dany to wipe out enemy families, simply because the stakes have been raised so high. If she loses, she knows she can expect no mercy.

Would she though? We saw in Meereen she couldn't bring herself to harm the child hostages.

[El Guapo]

I think that the Dany that emerged at the end of ADWD is going to be more ruthless than the one that was ruling in Mereen for most of the book. Wiping out entire families? Not sure about that. Maybe the "Baratheons" to eliminate and rival claimants to the throne. But other than that I don't see it.

[SeanF]

Would she though? We saw in Meereen she couldn't bring herself to harm the child hostages.

Leaving Meereen is always an option (and her long-term plan). Once she lands in Westeros, she wins or she dies.

[Parwan]

Medieval Western Europe had two concepts of feudal war (that is, war between barons, or between a vassal and his overlord). One was guerre couvert; limited war, conducted according to rules. Neither side was looking to destroy the other (although massacring peasants was perfectly legitimate). But, it was assumed that both sides would eventually come to terms, and prisoners of gentle birth would be ransomed. The other was guerre mortelle. In that case, it was assumed that prisoners would be executed, and one side was looking to destroy the other (although noble infant children would usually be spared).

Westeros has increasingly adopted an extreme form of guerre mortelle, in which the Reynes, Tarbecks, Darklyns, Targaryens, Starks, Darrys etc. have been exterminated by their enemies, and women and infants are treated as legitimate targets. In the light of this, I'd expect Dany to wipe out enemy families, simply because the stakes have been raised so high. If she loses, she knows she can expect no mercy.

Okay, that's an interpretation. It's still not a quote from the text, showing any hostility on Dany's part toward any house.

I don't think the examples you give all fit together that well. In particular, Tywin Lannister not only had no intention of wiping out the Starks, he was infuriated with Ned's execution, thought it a matter of sheer incompetence. He certainly didn't have anything to do with the supposed murder of Bran and Rickon.

Also, this is a thread about Daenerys Targaryen. Nothing you say in your post indicates that she would be any more terrible a ruler than any other powerful person in the seven kingdoms. If Westeros in general goes in for guerre mortelle, then that is a problem with Westeros in general, not with one particular character.

Although I'm not entirely convinced by your analysis, I do find it interesting. One of my main claims about Dany is that she fits in. She is not an outlier. In many important ways, she is quite similar to other leaders in the story. The main problems in Westeros are systemic. They may be made somewhat better or somewhat worse when one monarch is replaced by another. Finding some sort of hero or "true king" won't solve the problems though.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

What a brilliant OP.

[joluoto2]

Would she though? We saw in Meereen she couldn't bring herself to harm the child hostages.

Yeah, but we will see another Dany now. She had to choose between Peace or War. She chose Peace first, but I think she will not to that again.

[Nictarion]

Yeah, but we will see another Dany now. She had to choose between Peace or War. She chose Peace first, but I think she will not to that again.

I definitely think she's going to become even more of a conqueror. But that doesn't mean going off the deep end and becoming a complete butcher. Aegon l never was seen that way. He fought against soldiers and armies that opposed him, he didn't go around burning every town/village that resisted.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Dany will torch Westeros. From Dragonstone to Pyke, from the Arbor to the Wall. Death and Destruction is coming.

[Nictarion]

Dany will torch Westeros. From Dragonstone to Pyke, from the Arbor to the Wall. Death and Destruction is coming.

Yeah, that would totally be in character for her. It's like when she just burned down all of Slavers Bay, and spared no one. Same thing will happen in Westeros. :rolleyes:

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Yeah, that would totally be in character for her. It's like when she just burned down all of Slavers Bay, and spared no one. Same thing will happen in Westeros. :rolleyes:

Yeah i think so. Dany will be different this time. She'll go full targaryen on Westeros.

*Looks at Astapor* A living hell created truly by yours Dany. What makes you think some cities won't be like that, now that she has more armies and those beasts. :rolleyes:

[Parwan]

Yeah i think so. Dany will be different this time. She'll go full targaryen on Westeros.

*Looks at Astapor* A living hell created truly by yours Dany. What makes you think some cities won't be like that, now that she has more armies and those beasts. :rolleyes:

What is the phrase "full targaryen on Westeros" supposed to mean? The house ruled the seven kingdoms for centuries. When did one of them even think of torching the place from the Arbor to the Wall?

What makes Nictarion think that some cities in Westeros won't be like Astapor? Well, the fact that most cities in Slaver's Bay aren't like it would give a good reason for such a belief. The assertion that the situation in Astapor was "created" by Dany is a massive overstatement. She made a big mistake by marching away. That doesn't mean she ever had a desire to torch the place. The Dornishmen have a greater responsibility for the hell in the city than Daenerys does. They are the ones who allied themselves with the Yunkai'i.

[SeanF]

I definitely think she's going to become even more of a conqueror. But that doesn't mean going off the deep end and becoming a complete butcher. Aegon l never was seen that way. He fought against soldiers and armies that opposed him, he didn't go around burning every town/village that resisted.

Hopefully, we'll find out more about the Conquest, when the World of Ice and Fire comes out. There must have been some civilians who suffered during the course of it.

[Nictarion]

Hopefully, we'll find out more about the Conquest, when the World of Ice and Fire comes out. There must have been some civilians who suffered during the course of it.

Perhaps some, but if Aegon was truly a murderous butcher, he'd be remembered as Aegon the Cruel, or Aegon the Butcher.

[alx1078]

The OP raises some interesting ideas, however everyone is trying to pass judgment as though the character is finalized right at this very moment. If at book one anyone asked that question about Dany, i doubt anyone could answer that, or if they could give a complete and thorough answer. By the end of the second book, they might have given a different answer. After the third book they would have given another answer and after book five we are giving the answers in this thread. I am certain that halfway through the next book we would be giving a different answer, as Martin finished her story in ADWD in a sort of climax point when her character was begining to form a mindset. So if we don't see where that takes her in the first half of the book, we will not be able to give yet a definitive answer.

And it is true that most characters in the book progress through this saga. Some more than others. Dany (partly due to her age and of course hwer circumstances) has overgone probably the most radical of changes. However she is still a work in progress. She has shown potential for greatness, but she is a volatile chemical right now. Exactly because she is young and impressionable, exactly because she basically has a good heart and people like that show a vulnerability in how outside situations affect them, exactly because of the fact that she has gone through some extreme situations, and exactly because she has under her "control" the most powerful weapon in the world, she can either turn out to be the savior of Westeros, or its unwitting demise.

If she is surrounded by people who will give her good council and who would care for her, then she has the potential to be the best thing that happened for Westeros. If more extreme things happen to her, and she doesn't have people around her to care for her and advise her, and if something bad happens to her that scars her, there is a chance that it will harden her beyond redemption and that she will use the dragons in not such a constructive way for Westeros...

But as it is right now i see more potential for good rather than the oposite, based on the evidence of her chapters

[Nictarion]

If more extreme things happen to her, and she doesn't have people around her to care for her and advise her, and if something bad happens to her that scars her, there is a chance that it will harden her beyond redemption and that she will use the dragons in not such a constructive way for Westeros...

IMHO, she has already passed that test. In AGoT she was sold to a warlord at the age of 13, lost her only family member she ever knew, lost her unborn child, and had to euthanize her husband.

That is enough to break most people. But she persevered.

[Wmarshal]

Perhaps some, but if Aegon was truly a murderous butcher, he'd be remembered as Aegon the Cruel, or Aegon the Butcher.

History is written by the victories.

[The Mighty Dragonzzilla]

Dany can inspire people to fight for her just fine. Her problem is keeping them together. As wise as she is, she's easily manipulated by more world-savvy characters. She'd be a fine ruler in another other fantasy setting, but not this one.

[El Guapo]

History is written by the victories.

yet Maegor is known as Maegor the Cruel.

[alx1078]

IMHO, she has already passed that test. In AGoT she was sold to a warlord at the age of 13, lost her only family member she ever knew, lost her unborn child, and had to euthanize her husband.

That is enough to break most people. But she persevered.

I will not disgaree with that, which is why i said that i see more potential for greatness. However i do believe that even now, there are some things that could happen that would lead her to do something terrible for Westeros, without her fully being aware of the extent of what she is doing.

As i said though, i agree that right now odds are that either the potential will be nurtured and enhanced (by the presence of the right people around her) and something great will come of that, or the potential will be squandered and nothing will come of that. However i do not think that the latter would be rivetting reading material.

[SeanF]

Okay, that's an interpretation. It's still not a quote from the text, showing any hostility on Dany's part toward any house.

I don't think the examples you give all fit together that well. In particular, Tywin Lannister not only had no intention of wiping out the Starks, he was infuriated with Ned's execution, thought it a matter of sheer incompetence. He certainly didn't have anything to do with the supposed murder of Bran and Rickon.

Also, this is a thread about Daenerys Targaryen. Nothing you say in your post indicates that she would be any more terrible a ruler than any other powerful person in the seven kingdoms. If Westeros in general goes in for guerre mortelle, then that is a problem with Westeros in general, not with one particular character.

Although I'm not entirely convinced by your analysis, I do find it interesting. One of my main claims about Dany is that she fits in. She is not an outlier. In many important ways, she is quite similar to other leaders in the story. The main problems in Westeros are systemic. They may be made somewhat better or somewhat worse when one monarch is replaced by another. Finding some sort of hero or "true king" won't solve the problems though.

On reflection, Tywin wages both types of war, according to how each one serves his interests. The problem is that he, Aerys, the Freys, the Boltons, have between them created a society in which losing families can expect to be wiped out. Catelyn, for one, tells Robb that if they lose to Tywin, they can expect the same treatment as the Reynes and Tarbecks (although we subsequently learn that Tywin didn't intend to go quite so far). If people expect such treatment, then they'll be ruthless in turn.