Heresy 99

[Eira Seren]

The breathing thing sounds ickily familiar. When it gets too cold outside and I take a deep breath, it really hurts. If I'm outside in frigid temperatures, after about 20 minutes it starts to feel like the insides of my chest are icy. The trouble I have with labored breathing at that point sounds similar to Val's, Tormund's, and Bran and company's observations about breathing under these circumstances. Am assuming it must be moisture in my lungs getting too cold. Maybe the wildlings are acclimatized to this, so it doesn't happen most of the time; it's the excessive cold that causes them to feel it.

[nanother]

I know... i brought the text up and that is incorrect BC to a point.

1. When the bodies are first brought to CB and the NW was making their observations Sam explicitly said there is "no smell" and no animal attacks except where Ghost tore off the hand . What i am getting at, is that Jon "only" got that smell because he injured Othor. Had he not,he would not have smelled anything. We know that from the text a person doesn't have to be injured to die,so that scent will remain until punctured.

It is therefore understandable why Jon and Dy would have gotten the smell,if there were Wights that got punctured by what ever means the smell would hang.If Sam Obsidian dagger had gone through Small Paul ,he would have gotten a nose ful as well.

2. Nevertheless though as Grey words re posted there is clearly a horrible cold coming from the Wights,i don't know why this fact is being ignored when the text says so.To say that the Wights are NOT characterized by cold is something dismissed by the text

1. I'm not sure. No 'smell' specifically means no 'stink of rotting meat'. The animals do smell something. It might get stronger in case of injury, but it's there. And Dywen smells something, although is very vague about it.

And Coldhands:

The direwolf did not like the way that Coldhands smelled. Dead meat, dry blood, a faint whiff of rot. And cold. Cold over all.

Also, Dywen says Craster 'has a cold smell about him', full quote in my previous post. WTH is that about?

2. I think the obvious part is that wights are associated with cold. It seems to me that cold is part of them, is bound to them in some strange way so that it sticks to them even when it's warm outside. It's far from clear that it's coming from them. Arguably, in case of the Castle Black ones, the cold had to get there first to activate them.

Consider the AGoT Prologue again:

First Royce calls out 'Who goes there?' - Will glimpses a white shadow - Waymar asks: 'Why is it so cold?' and Will observes: 'It was cold'

Then the first WW emerges. Will observes: 'It was very cold.'

Lastly, the rest of the team start arriving, bringing even more cold. 'Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.'

With wights what you get is an intense cold, and an icy cold touch, but you don't get this sense of it being colder closer to them.

The breathing thing sounds ickily familiar. When it gets too cold outside and I take a deep breath, it really hurts. If I'm outside in frigid temperatures, after about 20 minutes it starts to feel like the insides of my chest are icy. The trouble I have with labored breathing at that point sounds similar to Val's, Tormund's, and Bran and company's observations about breathing under these circumstances. Am assuming it must be moisture in my lungs getting too cold. Maybe the wildlings are acclimatized to this, so it doesn't happen most of the time; it's the excessive cold that causes them to feel it.

I was wondering about this. It never gets could enough where I live for breathing to actually hurt, but I know breathing problems can be caused/worsened by cold (and wind). So I guess it's safe to assume these things are caused by the extreme cold (especially if it comes relatively sudden).

[wolfmaid7]

1. I'm not sure. No 'smell' specifically means no 'stink of rotting meat'. The animals do smell something. It might get stronger in case of injury, but it's there. And Dywen smells something, although is very vague about it.

And Coldhands:

The direwolf did not like the way that Coldhands smelled. Dead meat, dry blood, a faint whiff of rot. And cold. Cold over all.

Also, Dywen says Craster 'has a cold smell about him', full quote in my previous post. WTH is that about?

2. I think the obvious part is that wights are associated with cold. It seems to me that cold is part of them, is bound to them in some strange way so that it sticks to them even when it's warm outside. It's far from clear that it's coming from them. Arguably, in case of the Castle Black ones, the cold had to get there first to activate them.

Consider the AGoT Prologue again:

First Royce calls out 'Who goes there?' - Will glimpses a white shadow - Waymar asks: 'Why is it so cold?' and Will observes: 'It was cold'

Then the first WW emerges. Will observes: 'It was very cold.'

Lastly, the rest of the team start arriving, bringing even more cold. 'Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.'

With wights what you get is an intense cold, and an icy cold touch, but you don't get this sense of it being colder closer to them.

I was wondering about this. It never gets could enough where I live for breathing to actually hurt, but I know breathing problems can be caused/worsened by cold (and wind). So I guess it's safe to assume these things are caused by the extreme cold (especially if it comes relatively sudden).

I have no doubt the animals smelled something , it would be strange If they didn't.The dogs, Ghost, the horse that according to Sam went Crazy at the smell of the "queer scent" from the Wights. Sam's exact statement to be precise.Which supports my statements that the smell is only detectable by humans if the Wights suffer injury.

As to the breathing problems I concur, that can and is a factor which still means Wights as the dramatic drop in temp occurs with them.Again the Chett, Sam etc etc etc can show this.

The point about the Cold with the WWs being point specific was one of my points. The cold with them is not far extending it happens and is felt at close range.Which means they can't be raisng wights given the diversity of wights and the clusters of them roaming.

Waymar and they did not feel the cold from them till they were right up on them.Same with Sam and Ser Puddles, not until he was right up on them .This is why tourmond and they could feel the effects of the Wights and not see them.Why the guys on the fist the same thing and Thistle

Telling V6 can't you feel the cold way before v6 saw the horde.

You know you guys are helping make my points:)

[nanother]

I have no doubt the animals smelled something , it would be strange If they didn't.The dogs, Ghost, the horse that according to Sam went Crazy at the smell of the "queer scent" from the Wights. Sam's exact statement to be precise.Which supports my statements that the smell is only detectable by humans if the Wights suffer injury.

True. But the point that they're characterised by that smell (regardless of whether or not humans detect it) also stands. Which, in my interpretation, also means they are characterised by cold, just not the way you suggest (which, you say is that cold is coming from them). Anyhow, I should go to sleep, because I'm so tired I'm not even sure I agree with what I just wrote.

[wolfmaid7]

True. But the point that they're characterised by that smell (regardless of whether or not humans detect it) also stands. Which, in my interpretation, also means they are characterised by cold, just not the way you suggest (which, you say is that cold is coming from them). Anyhow, I should go to sleep, because I'm so tired I'm not even sure I agree with what I just wrote.

Lol....sleep well my friend.

[Melifeather]

I agree when Sam commented on the wights not having a smell, he meant they weren't decomposing. Cold does have a smell. It smells of outdoors but it does have an almost unpleasant odor almost like stale french fries. :ack: You'd think smelling like outdoors would smell good, but it doesn't to me. This is only an odor that I've noticed in the winter. The outdoors in the other seasons smell good, but the other three seasons have other good smelling things in the air like grass, woods, flowers, etc. Winter smells exactly as described: like "cold".

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Thank you Grey words for reposting that quote

@. BC as you can see there was a cold feeling, I posted this quote before, so I don't get why people are saying the Wights don't have a cold themselves.

You've convinced me that when a wight is under "control" there is a cold aura around them. However, there was no such cold aura around Othor when they found him without the blue eyes. It wasn't until they were back under control that the cold Aura appeared and their eyes turned blue again and they got up and started attacking the Lord Commander.

It's clear this was an orchestrated plan, executed by someone or something with intelligence. And my guess is that it was the Others (WW's) who had controlled those wights, and then once they were brought through the wall, they re-awakened them using the "cold aura", and then tried the assassination of the LC.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

This again is what we call a confounding variable,we can't say that because the WWs are cold and made of ice that they are responsible for them. If so then based on some people's viewpoint of the COTF,then they created the Wights. You see where i'm going with this?

Its not just a cold,its a "cold wind rising" which only happens again with Wights,no WWs that's how we know who is present and who is not.

So i will say again,if we look at the variety of what is being raised( birds,people,bears,things in water) the area and look at the WWs when they come on the scene it is the time in which people feel cold to when they are seen it is only a matter of seconds (Sam,ASOS,P.250) and the cold the WW emitted was personable not far reaching.For the amount of WWs and the extent of what they radiate ,they don't have the juice,this is something above their pay grade.

We have no proof that they are raising anything only speculation based on unreliable stories and based on what we have seen with out own eyes they aren't raising them.

So if Othor and the other Ranger were "raised" by the cold winds, then how did the "cold winds" get past the wall to raise them? No, they were already raised by the White Walkers, and had the ice magic within them, and then activated it to attack the commander. Otherwise, why aren't the dead rising south of the wall? It's cold in winterfell, and there's no evidence whatsoever that people that died there in battle are being raised up.

No, the the White Walkers are the source of the cold, and the cold is what they're controlling the wights with. They appear to have to be in close proximity to raise them, but once raised, they can travel from there.

[Eira Seren]

Also, Dywen says Craster 'has a cold smell about him', full quote in my previous post. WTH is that about?

This might be a figurative statement on Dywin's part. On the other hand, maybe the cold magic has a kind of smell about it near the Icy Folk? One that is different from the freeze-dried blood smell of the wights?

Though before I confuse myself too much, I do think Dywin might be identifying Craster's cold smell as association with the icy folk.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

There is proof that 'something" inhabits the Wights and the characteristics match and behave like a skinchanger which tells me that it in fact is an entity on it's own.The WWs have nothing to do with that.It is intelligent enough to plant two Wights who were members of the Watch where they could find it,intelligent enough to send the one Wights who saved Sam's life into the little hut.

Why do you think the White Walkers aren't intelligent? They're mocking their prey in the prologue. Why could White Walkers not plant these "wight" bombs for the Night's Watch to find?

[Toccs]

Jon pushed himself to his feet, he was shivering violently.

It's worth mentioning that shivering violently is a natural part of being in shock, which there can be no doubt that Jon was in after being almost choked to death by a walking corpse.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I agree when Sam commented on the wights not having a smell, he meant they weren't decomposing. Cold does have a smell. It smells of outdoors but it does have an almost unpleasant odor almost like stale french fries. :ack: You'd think smelling like outdoors would smell good, but it doesn't to me. This is only an odor that I've noticed in the winter. The outdoors in the other seasons smell good, but the other three seasons have other good smelling things in the air like grass, woods, flowers, etc. Winter smells exactly as described: like "cold".

I always kind of thought of the smell of the wights as kind of like what you smell when you open a freezer with frozen meat in it.

[JNR]

I always kind of thought of the smell of the wights as kind of like what you smell when you open a freezer with frozen meat in it.

It's also similar to the smell coming off any thread overfull of Jon adoration (he who is both fire and ice, future king of Westeros, balancer of mystical forces, AAR, Lightbringer personified, hero and protagonist of SoIaF, enthusiastic proponent of female-receiving oral sex, and all-around swell guy -- basically, St. Jon the Divine).

[Toccs]

I think that's more of a "hot" smell :ack:

[Melifeather]

I was describing what I think actual cold smells like. You won't smell it yourself going outside, but if someone comes inside after being out in the cold they have a definite smell to them that can only be described as smelling cold. It has a stale quality to it.

[Eira Seren]

I agree when Sam commented on the wights not having a smell, he meant they weren't decomposing. Cold does have a smell. It smells of outdoors but it does have an almost unpleasant odor almost like stale french fries. :ack: You'd think smelling like outdoors would smell good, but it doesn't to me. This is only an odor that I've noticed in the winter. The outdoors in the other seasons smell good, but the other three seasons have other good smelling things in the air like grass, woods, flowers, etc. Winter smells exactly as described: like "cold".

Cold does smell like the outdoors, though more like a clean smell. Snow is a clean, delicate mineral smell. It's hard for me to distinguish from the scents of evergreen and woodsmoke, probably because when I smell snow I associate it with those. It's not a sweet smell, like coming rain, but I guess it might depend on where you live.

Other people have described it as the faint smell of linen drying on the line, or a smell that is crisp, bright.

Here's a scientific answer:

http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/why-you-might-be-able-smell-snow-coming

. . . is it really possible that we can smell snow in the air?

I put that question to Johan Lundström. He's a smell and taste researcher in Philadelphia. Lundström also grew up in snowy northern Sweden.

"No," he says. "We can't smell the weather, just as little as we can smell someone's thoughts."

But that's not the end of the story. Lundström says changes in the weather can alter our ability to smell. In winter, the mucus layer around our olfactory receptors dries up. It loosens when humidity rises, like before a snow storm.

"If you're outside during this transition, I would predict that your sense of smell would actually become more acute. So it could be we learn to associate this change with an oncoming snow weather."

Once the snow is here, he says then the nose may pick up smells. Even water, Lundström says, is known to hold odors.

Or, maybe he's never smelled it!

[wolfmaid7]

You've convinced me that when a wight is under "control" there is a cold aura around them. However, there was no such cold aura around Othor when they found him without the blue eyes. It wasn't until they were back under control that the cold Aura appeared and their eyes turned blue again and they got up and started attacking the Lord Commander.

It's clear this was an orchestrated plan, executed by someone or something with intelligence. And my guess is that it was the Others (WW's) who had controlled those wights, and then once they were brought through the wall, they re-awakened them using the "cold aura", and then tried the assassination of the LC.

Wow I never said anything about a cold "aura"? They have no such thing in my mind.like I said I believe they have a dormancy period that is temp and light specific. It gets dark and cold and they wake, but no aura is involved. I believe the entity is some badass skinchanger

That uses the dead.But nuh there is no cold aura involved. At lease thst is not what I'm saying.

[Eira Seren]

It's also similar to the smell coming off any thread overfull of Jon adoration (he who is both fire and ice, future king of Westeros, balancer of mystical forces, AAR, Lightbringer personified, hero and protagonist of SoIaF, enthusiastic proponent of female-receiving oral sex, and all-around swell guy -- basically, St. Jon the Divine).

:laugh:

Whereas Jon Snow the character smells completely different from the threads, or from cold and snow. It's more of an unwashed, crow smell. When he is out in the snow, it is mingled with eau de wet wolf , . . .

[Eira Seren]

Wow I never said anything about a cold "aura"? They have no such thing in my mind.like I said I believe they have a dormancy period that is temp and light specific. It gets dark and cold and they wake, but no aura is involved. I believe the entity is some badass skinchanger

That uses the dead.But nuh there is no cold aura involved. At lease thst is not what I'm saying.

Would this skinchanger be like Bloodraven? How would it operate? (ETA: That sounded dumb, I mean, over distances, etc -- is it similar to Bloodraven, Varamyr, Bran? Does it operate out of the heart of winter, or can it travel?)

[wolfmaid7]

Would this skinchanger be like Bloodraven? How would it operate? (ETA: That sounded dumb, I mean, over distances, etc -- is it similar to Bloodraven, Varamyr, Bran? Does it operate out of the heart of winter, or can it travel?)

I don't mean individually "a"skinchanger. I was thinking along the lines of a collective that got corrupted .This is a guess but I thought about what happens to a skinchanger that dies before they had the opportunity to bond with their familiar.

That maybe the cold entity is a collective of them.Singers who didn't fly like those that were impaled on the spikes.Or if Craster's babies are inherently skinchangers and it is the Wights that collect them for the cold or for those who go the other way if the WWs collect them for the cold.Or to put a spin on TOJ's theory that "the cold" is a collective of the GS that were destroyed when they got cut down and burned.Any of those is possible as far as this theory goes.

As i said looking at the Wights more closely ; the blue glow that inhabits them,that gets driven out by fire (reminiscent of Mel's trick with Orel's eagle) the fact that it inhabits different host that like moving in hordes.I feel confident in saying it is an entity like a skinchanger.