Heresy 99

[#Fire and Blood]

There are so many parallels between both types of magic. We have gotten a strong insight to the fire side of magic and I argue we should be able to figure out what is going on with the Ice if we compare what we know. The parallels (some weaker than others) are listed below.

Mel had heat emanating from her body that was strong enough to make the wall weep. The few times we have seen the Others, it has been painfully cold and they seem to be producing it.

Mel mentions she should not completely reveal the true strength of her power in case it makes men fear her more. The Other's have no reason to hide how strong they are as they are not actively recruiting live humans.

Mel does not eat. The Others and Wight’s are never seen eating (wights definitely not, Others perhaps eating sheep....unless they are just bringing them to the COTF for dinna'.

Dany saw a fire priest create a ladder of fire that reached 40 feet in the air. We have argued that the Others had to have something to do with raising the wall of ice that is miles high in the air (reaching its height over several years).

Mel was able to burst Orell's eagle into flames from the inside. The Others seem to be able to create the opposite reaction of the internal fire inside Orell's eagle, but it is cold that makes it hurt to breath. From Tormunds story it can kill by freezing the insides and in turn, create more thralls.

Moqorro has some sort of constant fiery crackling happening on his skin (shifting patterns and the like). Moqorro is able to "fix" Vic's hand, and then Vic's hand appears a lot like his face. The Others are said to have shifting pattern as they move through the forest. Their appearance is always changing and never remains solid.

Thoros is able to resurrect Beric D several times. Beric D is able to pass on his "light" to Cat who had been dead for 3 days. The Others are able to resurrect too from what we have seen, granted their resurrections seem to have a less than human result. But you could argue that the fire side resurrections are not exactly human either.

Mel is able to create shadows and bind them to her will; she also seems to think that if she were to make some at the wall they would be of immense power. She is also able to convince thousands that they should fight for the fire. They seem to retain their humanity, however they seem to fight mindlessly. Others are able to bind their icy thralls (who appear to be mindless s well) to their will.

Mel and Thoros are able to get their swords to burn with flame. The Others have blades of ice.

Essentially what I am getting at, is if there is an overall entity responsible for the Others and the Wights, then there is one for the fire as well. Where does the fire one reside? Asshai?

*Edited for clarity and beefed up a few things.

[JNR]

ROFLMAO :) Nor does Royce have the entire Night's Watch in his hands :)

Very true.

I also wonder how, if Jon is AAR... and Jon is also Lightbringer... Jon is going to clasp himself and draw himself out (per the Lightbringer myth) in order to defeat the Others.

I'm not sure that's the image the Church quite had in mind.

[JNR]

I'm not so sure and think that concentrating on Ser Waymar's sword is a good example of over-analysing things. Yes, the First Walker looked at Ser Waymar's sword, but the lad was holding it above his head in a high guard. The First Walker was assessing Ser Waymar; not his sword, but how the boy was carrying himself, how resolute he was. Basically he was sizing Ser Waymar up before fighting him.

I think the Others remember being defeated, and they remember how, too. And it wasn't by men who only had resolution going for them. Small Paul was about as resolute as a man can get and we know what happened there.

[Black Crow]

I think the Others remember being defeated, and they remember how, too. And it wasn't by men who only had resolution going for them. Small Paul was about as resolute as a man can get and we know what happened there.

True, but Small Paul also rushed straight at Ser Puddles. The First Walker needed to figure whether Ser Waymar was going to break right or break left, or whether he would give ground if he went straight at him.

ETA: spelling

[Black Crow]

Essentially what I am getting at, is if there is an overall entity responsible for the Others and the Wights, then there is one for the fire as well. Where does the fire one reside? Asshai?

There's a lot in there which really needs one of our specialised threads to do it justice, so I was thinking of making Ice and Fire the theme of Heresy 100.

I will say at this stage though I'm unconvinced, particularly given GRRM's remarks on the subject of deities, that there is a controlling entity on either side, far less anything out in far-off Asshai where GRRM has said we will not go.

[King of Winters]

I think the Others remember being defeated, and they remember how, too. And it wasn't by men who only had resolution going for them. Small Paul was about as resolute as a man can get and we know what happened there.

Maybe that's where "The North Remembers" comes from. From the real North.

[Melifeather]

Well, the rangers carried Othor across, and since Othor had already been wightified (as evidenced by him not decaying), and thus ,once he was taken across the threshold, the control was still in effect, and all the controller had to do was re-awaken them\ and point them in a general direction.

I think you've missed what my point was since of course we all know that Othor was carried through, but the Wall is thought to block magic, so how did the wight raise up south of the Wall? Is it once a wight always a wight and any cold wind will turn on the blue eyes? Or, if it takes White Walker power to turn on the switch? I think it may be evidence that Bloodraven is controlling the wights. He's the one that has shown the ability to "spy" north and south of the Wall. If it's the White Walkers controlling the wights, then we need to determine how they were able to do that through the Wall. Of course, the natural cold can travel over the Wall, but if the super chilled cold is controlled by the White Walkers, the Wall should stop magic.

[#Fire and Blood]

There's a lot in there which really needs one of our specialised threads to do it justice, so I was thinking of making Ice and Fire the theme of Heresy 100.

I will say at this stage though I'm unconvinced, particularly given GRRM's remarks on the subject of deities, that there is a controlling entity on either side, far less anything out in far-off Asshai where GRRM has said we will not go.

I think that would be perfect! I bet we could debate about it for 2 full threads.

At this time I do not think there are entities that are guiding these different types of magic. I am more or less asking for an overall fire theory to match the cold one. If there is to be any relevance to Wolfmaids theory, there should be some sort of opposite theory for fire.

[Black Crow]

I think you've missed what my point was since of course we all know that Othor was carried through, but the Wall is thought to block magic, so how did the wight raise up south of the Wall? Is it once a wight always a wight and any cold wind will turn on the blue eyes? Or, if it takes White Walker power to turn on the switch? I think it may be evidence that Bloodraven is controlling the wights. He's the one that has shown the ability to "spy" north and south of the Wall. If it's the White Walkers controlling the wights, then we need to determine how they were able to do that through the Wall. Of course, the natural cold can travel over the Wall, but if the super chilled cold is controlled by the White Walkers, the Wall should stop magic.

I'd be wary of blaming Bloodraven for everything. Qhorin Halfhand it was who warned that the OId Powers are wakening and that the trees have eyes again, which very firmly points to the Singers and certainly doesn't suggest that they are the good guys. we don't of course know just what spells are actually woven into the Wall, but if it was indeed built by the magic of the Singers then they of all people must know how to circumvent that magic.

[TheButcherCrow]

"Gone down into the earth,” she answered. “Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them."

Ok, in the first two bolded sections Leaf confirms Jojen's assertion that:

Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.

If ALL singer's go back to the earth & become part of that godhood then we have a problem. The greenseers are not dead, they are alive & plugged into "god". Now thinking yourself on a par with god or taking the power of a god or whatever tends to be just on the wrong side of dodgy and hardly ever ends well.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Yes and no, although you and I might cheerfully use the word aura in that casual and almost careless way, Wolfmaid is a practitioner and words such as aura have a far more precise meaning for her. :cool4:

I was just pointing out that I wasn't intending a different meaning (clearly due to my own lack of understanding on the topic).

[Black Crow]

Ok, in the first two bolded sections Leaf confirms Jojen's assertion that:

If ALL singer's go back to the earth & become part of that godhood then we have a problem. The greenseers are not dead, they are alive & plugged into "god". Now thinking yourself on a par with god or taking the power of a god or whatever tends to be just on the wrong side of dodgy and hardly ever ends well.

:agree:

Both with your interpretation and your conclusion. These are not the good guys.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think you've missed what my point was since of course we all know that Othor was carried through, but the Wall is thought to block magic, so how did the wight raise up south of the Wall? Is it once a wight always a wight and any cold wind will turn on the blue eyes? Or, if it takes White Walker power to turn on the switch? I think it may be evidence that Bloodraven is controlling the wights. He's the one that has shown the ability to "spy" north and south of the Wall. If it's the White Walkers controlling the wights, then we need to determine how they were able to do that through the Wall. Of course, the natural cold can travel over the Wall, but if the super chilled cold is controlled by the White Walkers, the Wall should stop magic.

Not if that bit of magic was taken through the wall hiding in the bodies of Othor and the other ranger was my point.

My guess is that the controlling magic stays with the Wight, and when it's activated, the Wight's eyes glow blue and it gets cold.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Ok, in the first two bolded sections Leaf confirms Jojen's assertion that:

If ALL singer's go back to the earth & become part of that godhood then we have a problem. The greenseers are not dead, they are alive & plugged into "god". Now thinking yourself on a par with god or taking the power of a god or whatever tends to be just on the wrong side of dodgy and hardly ever ends well.

Exactly, and what happens when you get "unplugged" because your weirwood gets chopped down/burnt, and your body is no longer capable of independent movement? I suggest you make yourself a body of ice...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

:agree:

Both with your interpretation and your conclusion. These are not the good guys.

I believe those that are still plugged in, are in fact the good guys. The guys that have been forcefully unplugged on the "Other" hand... that's a different story.

[King of Winters]

I believe those that are still plugged in, are in fact the good guys. The guys that have been forcefully unplugged on the "Other" hand... that's a different story.

I think the ones that are "plugged in" are just lesser versions of the god-like ones that have gone into the into the earth. So they all have the same agenda whether you think it's good or bad.

[wolfmaid7]

Why do you think the White Walkers aren't intelligent? They're mocking their prey in the prologue. Why could White Walkers not plant these "wight" bombs for the Night's Watch to find?

I don't think they are unintelligent,i don't think i said that. Plus and this is why i stand in the middle when it comes to definitively saying certain things. GRRM has talked a lot about how much W.Faulkner inspired him,especially when it comes to the "human condition" which is basically how we see,interact,and view each other,the environment and what's not the same as us. Ser Cackles may well have been mocking his "prey". But i'd like to add that Will perceived it as mocking because that is what it sounding like "to him" from his view point.Was Ser Cackles really mocking him,does a Hyena really laugh.For all we know Ser Cackles may have been saying " good fight,you deserve an honorable death,or your are worthy of an honorable death". There's a problem i have with planting "wight bombs" because that opens up the possibility that there magic is pass the Wall if they could "reactivate" at will behind the Wall.Which doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.

I posted a question recently which I received no response to. I actually did not expect a response, just something I was pondering. I want to post it again for a couple of reasons.

In the AGOT prologue, why did the White Walkers show themselves? They could have kept to the trees and shadows. The choice was theirs. Yet they came out, only one at first, and let Waymar see. Then the rest followed. The White Walkers wanted to see and be seen. Combining this with the 'cold' and degree of 'cold'we're discussing in this thread brought another question to mind.

Can the White Walkers decide how much cold to radiate or the degree of cold amplification? *(Within the limits of their power) Radiate is a good word for the cold coming from the WWs but I think of it also as amplifying the cold. It seems to me they should have control of the amount or degree of cold coming from their presence.

The control to affect a large area or a smaller and/or more precise area. And what about the specificity of effects, as to menace or kill and wightify at their discretion.

Many will have different views on this,but i think they were just curious,ad it escalated because off the get go the NW saw them as imminent danger.I think that they are cold creatures and thus radiate cold within a few feet to when they appear. There is no proof that they can project cold over a large area.All instances where we knew for sure they were there the cold they radiate was limited to immediate immediate area.From where i sit what they radiate is different from what the Wights radiate.

I often get the impression reading your arguments here that we're not in opposition but talking at cross purposes. The wights may be capable of individual control from time; there are questionmarks over Othor as well as Small Paul, but in general not, and certainly not sufficiently to operate a baby collection service. While some profess to doubt that Craster gives up his sons to the white walkers there really is no evidence credible or otherwise that wights are involved. Yes, the wights are "inhabited" by something, and for so many to be infected we're talking about dark magic, but they have the same icy blue eyes as the white walkers and there's no doubting that the two are associated or that the white walkers are using them as their foot soldiers.

Baby collection service lol.....I don't think they are in control at all.I have consistently said that the entity i characterize as "the cold" is like a Skinchanger and it is that which is driving the Wights. Lets look at a couple of things sending two members Othor and Jaffar back to the Watch .Sending Small Paul into the hut where Sam was ,perfect,you know from Small Pauls memory that he saved Sam's life and that caused Sam to hesitate considerably.This thing has access to their memories that's how it knows who to use.So i'm not going to give the Wights any props other than being host and having their memories accessed for a purpose and to me that immediate not some far reaching magical incantation.

I see all of that. I'm thinking they could have used the Cold to kill the ranger but wanted to do it first hand. Just for fun or maybe to see what these crows have to offer. Either way, I was tying it all together with the question of - how much control the WWs have over the cold. Maybe its not a big deal, but I think it relates to the discussion from this thread. Although I could go for talk of something else. Thought of turning the discussion to a shipping thread. Jon <3 Val. Hooray!

ETA I forgot to add in the frozen wildlings nearby Will and Waymar. Thats what got me thinking bout one group killed with cold and the other by sword with the WWs in the midst of it all. All of this should've been in that one post, but i hit the button before i finished.

The reason why they didn't,is because they couldn't If they could weaponize the cold to kill without even being on the field Ser Puddles would be alive and they would not be in no danger. They do not control "the cold".They radiate cold,but that's natural.

Yes Eira Seren I think the WWs were curious. So they came in close to see whats what before killing the man. I think they knew Will was there also. Which leads me to believe Black Crow's 'booby trap' idea.

Good show JNR

They were curious imho and it got way out of hand because of that human condition.

You're getting hung up on words. Cold mists, cold aura, cold winds, same difference.

I agree with you that the entity is a badass skinchanger. It's just that I believe that every single one of the Others are badass skinchangers, because I think they are disembodied Greenseers/Old Gods.

I envision a White Walker and his wights like Bloodraven with his murder of crows.

Nuh,certain words just mean different things to me than maybe you.To clarify i don't think it's "a" Skinchanger i think it is a collective.Where that collective game from has many theories from where i sit.I do not think the WWs are Skinchangers at all but that's just me.

Well, the rangers carried Othor across, and since Othor had already been wightified (as evidenced by him not decaying), and thus ,once he was taken across the threshold, the control was still in effect, and all the controller had to do was re-awaken them\ and point them in a general direction.

But isn't that the purpose of the Wall to stop things like that,which again points to that blue glow and their pupils aren't blue.Indicated by Thistle when she gouged out hers there was a blue glow in the black of her sockets indicating again that there is something inhabiting the Wights and it has a dormancy period.

I'm not so sure and think that concentrating on Ser Waymar's sword is a good example of over-analysing things. Yes, the First Walker looked at Ser Waymar's sword, but the lad was holding it above his head in a high guard. The First Walker was assessing Ser Waymar; not his sword, but how the boy was carrying himself, how resolute he was. Basically he was sizing Ser Waymar up before fighting him.

I agree i think he was ...oh you wanna fight lets see what you got. :agree:

Yes and no, although you and I might cheerfully use the word aura in that casual and almost careless way, Wolfmaid is a practitioner and words such as aura have a far more precise meaning for her. :cool4:

True true

There are so many parallels between both types of magic. We have gotten a strong insight to the fire side of magic and I argue we should be able to figure out what is going on with the Ice if we compare what we know. The parallels (some weaker than others) are listed below.

Mel had heat emanating from her body that was strong enough to make the wall weep. The few times we have seen the Others, it has been painfully cold and they seem to be producing it.

Mel mentions she should not completely reveal the true strength of her power in case it makes men fear her more. The Other's have no reason to hide how strong they are as they are not actively recruiting live humans.

Mel does not eat. The Others and Wight’s are never seen eating (wights definitely not, Others perhaps eating sheep....unless they are just bringing them to the COTF for dinna'.

Dany saw a fire priest create a ladder of fire that reached 40 feet in the air. We have argued that the Others had to have something to do with raising the wall of ice that is miles high in the air (reaching its height over several years).

Mel was able to burst Orell's eagle into flames from the inside. The Others seem to be able to create the opposite reaction of the internal fire inside Orell's eagle, but it is cold that makes it hurt to breath. From Tormunds story it can kill by freezing the insides and in turn, create more thralls.

Moqorro has some sort of constant fiery crackling happening on his skin (shifting patterns and the like). Moqorro is able to "fix" Vic's hand, and then Vic's hand appears a lot like his face. The Others are said to have shifting pattern as they move through the forest. Their appearance is always changing and never remains solid.

Thoros is able to resurrect Beric D several times. Beric D is able to pass on his "light" to Cat who had been dead for 3 days. The Others are able to resurrect too from what we have seen, granted their resurrections seem to have a less than human result. But you could argue that the fire side resurrections are not exactly human either.

Mel is able to create shadows and bind them to her will; she also seems to think that if she were to make some at the wall they would be of immense power. She is also able to convince thousands that they should fight for the fire. They seem to retain their humanity, however they seem to fight mindlessly. Others are able to bind their icy thralls (who appear to be mindless s well) to their will.

Mel and Thoros are able to get their swords to burn with flame. The Others have blades of ice.

Essentially what I am getting at, is if there is an overall entity responsible for the Others and the Wights, then there is one for the fire as well. Where does the fire one reside? Asshai?

*Edited for clarity and beefed up a few things.

I'm agreeing with BC about the deity assertion. Magic is magic and it really depends on the caster how it turns out. I would call Beric and Cat and CH the same but different casters brought them back using different anchors ( fire,ice etc). The issue with the Wights is the behavior of the thing in them acts like a skinchanger,which leaves me to believe it is a corruption somehow. Maybe it is the collective of skinchangers that died before they bonded to a familiar and so the only thing they know is death.But all of this i attribute to the nature of the world that is magical and not a single deity.

I think there is no counterpart to fire or ice in this,its just how magic is used.The cold to me is a corruption of natural magic,while the others Cat,CH etc are caused by a caster.

True, but Small Paul also rushed straight at Ser Puddles. The First Walker needed to figure whether Ser Waymar was going to break right or break left, or whether he would give ground if he went straight at him.

ETA: spelling

True true

I'd be wary of blaming Bloodraven for everything. Qhorin Halfhand it was who warned that the OId Powers are wakening and that the trees have eyes again, which very firmly points to the Singers and certainly doesn't suggest that they are the good guys. we don't of course know just what spells are actually woven into the Wall, but if it was indeed built by the magic of the Singers then they of all people must know how to circumvent that magic.

Agreed,i think "powers" is the operative word.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think the ones that are "plugged in" are just lesser versions of the god-like ones that have gone into the into the earth. So they all have the same agenda whether you think it's good or bad.

But it's men that chopped down their trees and burnt them, causing them to be unplugged. And once they're unplugged, they no longer have access to the "Godhood" to seek wisdom or understanding. They become bitter and "Ice"-o-lated, and turn their attention to vengeance and justice, and blood.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok, in the first two bolded sections Leaf confirms Jojen's assertion that:

If ALL singer's go back to the earth & become part of that godhood then we have a problem. The greenseers are not dead, they are alive & plugged into "god". Now thinking yourself on a par with god or taking the power of a god or whatever tends to be just on the wrong side of dodgy and hardly ever ends well.

I agree ,but i will add even if its not intentional it often times doesn't end well.I think we all agree that the "plugged in part" is a problem . V6 death was telling to me,his travels that is,he was basically looking for his host and he was lucky one eye was alive and he found him. But what if he didn't have a place to go. I mean he was in everything the trees,the rocks a flock of birds etc. ....Now imagine a group of you never having bonded to anything and you die,or while you were plugged in you suffered a massacre...Dang

I was just pointing out that I wasn't intending a different meaning (clearly due to my own lack of understanding on the topic).

No probs sweety i got what you were saying eventually :cheers:

Not if that bit of magic was taken through the wall hiding in the bodies of Othor and the other ranger was my point.

My guess is that the controlling magic stays with the Wight, and when it's activated, the Wight's eyes glow blue and it gets cold.

I agree with this but not the " magic" part being turned on and off like that.I still am of the belief that the Wights provide a body for this thing and that it is sensitive to certain conditions.Notably light and temp.If we look at the scene outside the cave with Bran and Co. If they had gone by there a few hours there while it was light,they would have been find.As soon as the temp dropped and the night fell they woke. No matter what when it's warm and day,they go to sleep.

[Black Crow]

But it's men that chopped down their trees and burnt them, causing them to be unplugged. And once they're unplugged, they no longer have access to the "Godhood" to seek wisdom or understanding. They become bitter and "Ice"-o-lated, and turn their attention to vengeance and justice, and blood.

The term actually used is Godhead which implies a collective rather than an individual consciousness - a concept GRRM has explored before, most notably in A Song for Lya. The destruction of individual weirwoods wouldn't "unplug" individuals since their individuality is already subsumed within the godhead.