Why are the Valyrians so fair-skinned?

[ummester]

:dunno: :leaving: :read: :idea:

They always had magic in their blood. They use that inner blood magic to control Dragons, That is why the Targs want to keep their bloodline as pure as possible.

So it's possible the Valyrians are the last line of a magically enhanced race, back from before the time when dragons used to be everywhere.

I still posit the original dragons in ASoIaF (not the remaining ones hiding in the 14 flames that the Valyrians found) were birthed/created in Asshai (Bran's dream). At the same time the sorcerers probably enhanced a bunch of people to bond with these beasties. I still have the feeling that it's all tied into the moon falling, the Long Night and the comet somehow also.

[The Dragons Hand]

It's possible they spent most of their time inside the buildings of Valyria or fully clothed when outside. Also, many people with pale skin really do not tan well if at all.

IIRC GRRM stated he initially thought about making the Targaryens black. He wanted to give them a distinguishable look, but ended up with fair skin, the silver gold hair, and purple eyes.

That would've been pretty cool as well, although I've always been wont to believe the gold part of "Silvery gold" is very faint, if present at all.

*Oh, I'm using wont now, how spooky*

Yeah, he probably just thought incestuous albino dragon riders sounded cool, but it's fun to find an in-universe reason as to why they're like that.

Bloodraven was a legitimate albino Targaryen *Well, legitimatized Targaryen, legitiate albino*, and he was less incestous by half.

I don't know if GRRM meant for this, but I've always taken the Valyrians to have incomplete albinism. The violet eyes are an obvious indicator.

If you're a slave-holding culture with magical WMD's, you don't need sunscreen, magical or not. You have slaves to hold a parasol everywhere you go.

And darker skin tones would be for the "Working class"

Oh boy.

I could have save you a lot of trouble and answer with just one word:

MAGIC!!!!

:lol: :lmao: :laugh: :rofl: :smug:

10/10

[Falcon2908]

Forget about the Valyrians, the thousand islanders are green skinned!

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Forget about the Valyrians, the thousand islanders are green skinned!

Algae. Body paint. Moss. It happens. Maybe they are just green skinned tho.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I don't think there is any reason to doubt about the Thosand Islanders' skin color. The art is out of universe, so they are not drawn as Yandel's theories, but as they are.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I don't think there is any reason to doubt about the Thosand Islanders' skin color. The art is out of universe, so they are not drawn as Yandel's theories, but as they are.

The art is often wrong. I don't doubt it because now I think they are descendants of the merlings or squishers or Deep Ones or selkies or whatever the hell lives under the water.

[Reginald blackfield]

The art is often wrong. I don't doubt it because now I think they are descendants of the merlings or squishers or Deep Ones or selkies or whatever the hell lives under the water.

No...

Just how could a Mammal be fertile with a Fish?

[TheSovereignGrave]

No...

Just how could a Mammal be fertile with a Fish?

Um, magic? And we don't actually know what the Deep Ones are (if they exist).

[Wordsmith1]

I suspect that the Valyrian people are not quite human the same way Homo sapiens sapiens is.

The Valyrian Freehold and it's fallen empire of dragons (aside from referencing Rome and Pompeii) also has strong similarities to the Bright Empire of Melnibone (which was notably called "the Dragon Isle") in Michael Moorcock's "Elric" stories; the folk of that empire also had pale skin and impossibly silver hair (though Elric himself was albanistic, his cousins looked remarkably similar with the hair and skin thing), as well as pracicing sinister blood sorcery, and we know GRRM loves to toss in minor references...or major ones, since Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is admitted to be an Elric reference.

Repeatedly in Elric's Moorcock stories the people of Melnibone are suggested to be not precisely the same sort of human regular folks are, akin to the way Homo neanderthalensis is human like us but also a different sort of species too.

Some of the stillbirths Targayen's are rumored to produce are....well, wholly unnatural. Scales, tails, fangs, and in one case stunted WINGS, and while inbreeding has a higher percentage of deformities becoming more prominent, at no point in our evolution as a species did we have scales or wings, and no matter how inbred you get you won't find THAT kind of result of inbreeding (though shriveled arms and huge jawlines can happen, as the Hapsburgs could tell you).

It puts the claims that the dragonlords "have dragonblood" in them in a different perspective. It's almost certainly not literal, but it might be a hint to them being human, but not human like us. Lots of Tagaryen's are described as being "otherworldly" or "inhuman" in their physical beauty, remember.

[Wordsmith1]

That would've been pretty cool as well, although I've always been wont to believe the gold part of "Silvery gold" is very faint, if present at all.

*Oh, I'm using wont now, how spooky*

Bloodraven was a legitimate albino Targaryen *Well, legitimatized Targaryen, legitiate albino*, and he was less incestous by half.

And darker skin tones would be for the "Working class"

Oh boy.

10/10

How gold their hair was or wasn't seems to have varied highly by individual.

[The Dragons Hand]

How gold their hair was or wasn't seems to have varied highly by individual.

I figured as much, but I also like to imagine the dragons have four legs, so there's that.

[Wordsmith1]

I figured as much, but I also like to imagine the dragons have four legs, so there's that.

That's more wishful thinking against page description really.

The Valyrian hair thing has been shown by the wide variance in silver to gold hair; Dany has classic silver, but Rhaeger's hair was an extremely pale metallic gold color.

[The Dragons Hand]

That's more wishful thinking against page description really.

The Valyrian hair thing has been shown by the wide variance in silver to gold hair; Dany has classic silver, but Rhaeger's hair was an extremely pale metallic gold color.

Oh, most certainly. I've never been able to read "Dragon" and envision a giant armored fire-breathing bat. That is a drake in my mind and always will be.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I suspect that the Valyrian people are not quite human the same way Homo sapiens sapiens is.

The Valyrian Freehold and it's fallen empire of dragons (aside from referencing Rome and Pompeii) also has strong similarities to the Bright Empire of Melnibone (which was notably called "the Dragon Isle") in Michael Moorcock's "Elric" stories; the folk of that empire also had pale skin and impossibly silver hair (though Elric himself was albanistic, his cousins looked remarkably similar with the hair and skin thing), as well as pracicing sinister blood sorcery, and we know GRRM loves to toss in minor references...or major ones, since Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is admitted to be an Elric reference.

Repeatedly in Elric's Moorcock stories the people of Melnibone are suggested to be not precisely the same sort of human regular folks are, akin to the way Homo neanderthalensis is human like us but also a different sort of species too.

Some of the stillbirths Targayen's are rumored to produce are....well, wholly unnatural. Scales, tails, fangs, and in one case stunted WINGS, and while inbreeding has a higher percentage of deformities becoming more prominent, at no point in our evolution as a species did we have scales or wings, and no matter how inbred you get you won't find THAT kind of result of inbreeding (though shriveled arms and huge jawlines can happen, as the Hapsburgs could tell you).

It puts the claims that the dragonlords "have dragonblood" in them in a different perspective. It's almost certainly not literal, but it might be a hint to them being human, but not human like us. Lots of Tagaryen's are described as being "otherworldly" or "inhuman" in their physical beauty, remember.

Yes GRRM has made that clear in WOIAF, there are several species of humans living on Planetos. The Valyrians are slightly different, it a simple concept, and really solves many of the problems and arguments that are constantly had on this forum :)

[Wordsmith1]

Yes GRRM has made that clear in WOIAF, there are several species of humans living on Planetos. The Valyrians are slightly different, it a simple concept, and really solves many of the problems and arguments that are constantly had on this forum :)

It's something that comes up in Howerdian-inspired fantasy literature more then once, that there are different "races" of men (though Howard was definitely inspired a bit more by the racism prevalent in his time period then the idea of sub-species and the like).

There's a lot of nods twoards his stuff, especially in Essos which resembles a ton of the "exotic Orient" sort of lands Conan the Cimmerian would visit with great wealth and corruption with strange customs and stranger gods.

Plus they keep tossing in animals that seem more prehistoric then straight fantasy; dire wolves are around, unicorns are massive single-horned goats rather then horses, aurochs are still around (though they admittedly went extinct much much later), Giants are a sort of huge Neanderthal yeti-people, wyverns in Sothoryos are pretty obviously pterodactyls, and they even have what sounds like Jurrassic park-style velociraptors there as well. Howard also liked to add prehistoric animals as still running around in isolated places.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Yes GRRM has made that clear in WOIAF, there are several species of humans living on Planetos. The Valyrians are slightly different, it a simple concept, and really solves many of the problems and arguments that are constantly had on this forum :)

But the only real physical difference between, say, a Valyrian and an Andal is hair and eye colour. Compare that to, say, the Ibbenese who are described as being rather different physically than most men.

[Wordsmith1]

But the only real physical difference between, say, a Valyrian and an Andal is hair and eye colour. Compare that to, say, the Ibbenese who are described as being rather different physically than most men.

And aside from a mildly different skeleton density as well as a mildly different skull, Neanderthal man was just a human who was slightly taller then average with perhaps a bit greater strength.

And there's countless of species of animals that are physically only mildly different (size most often) that nonetheless makes them an entirely different species; wooly mammoths are actually barely different from modern elephants at all).

The Valyrian people displayed markedly much less variance in their physical features then almost any existing ethnicity in the setting so far, to the point where ANYONE with their hair and eyes is considered to have "the blood of the old freehold", whereas we have First Men and Andals running the gamut of hair colors, and although admittedly First Men seem to favor dark hair coloration GRRM has openly stated that the Daynes are First Men and they have hair ranging from black to ashen blonde to nearly silver.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Don't forget that more important than their strength advantage, was our intellectual advantage. Neanderthals broke the same bones over and over again, suggesting they did not learn from their mistakes as we do.

[Wordsmith1]

^Don't forget that more important than their strength advantage, was our intellectual advantage. Neanderthals broke the same bones over and over again, suggesting they did not learn from their mistakes as we do.

Actually....no.

Most Neanderthal bones show heavy signs of bone disorders nearly identical to the kinds of disorders that people who are hugely tall get in modern day since the human skeletal structure isn't really built to be supporting someone who is on the upper half of the 6 feet tall range or taller, like most Neanderthals seemed to be on average compared to us, along with having heavier bones. In fact the famous sloping forehead Neanderthal skull was proven long ago to NOT be a regular Homo sapiens neanderthalus skull, but one suffering from the bone growth disorders that seemed to have plagued the species in general. It's might one of the reasons they died out; evolution tends not to favor a species with traits like "bones break easy" without kickass biological tradeoffs like "can fly" as opposed to "marginally stronger on average".

The problem is a simple physics one; the square cube law says that when an object increases in proportionate size it's mass multiplies by it's new surface proportions; it's why bears don't walk on two feet all the time and why every single animal on Earth larger then us goes on four feet rather then two. Eventually the human skeletal system stops being able to physiologically support the mass in question, leading to bone disorders such as easier breaks and constant joint pains. It's also why folks like Gregor Clegane, close to 8 feet tall and weighing over 400lbs of solid muscle wouldn't really work very well in real life without serious health problems, but I overlook that for sake of a good yarn.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well exactly. Grrm has established different races f humans and the Valyrians are one of them, all with very much the same ahir and eye color, the ability to tame/subdue/ride dragons which no other humans are capable of. And the higher-heat tolerance which GRRM has pointed out himself.

They are unique just like the giants, cotf, ibbenese and probably others.