GOODKIND VII, The sword of truthiness

[The Wolf Maid]

But of course the Old World is enormous. Its like sending your army out to ransack Asia. Btw, at the point in the book where I am (mercifully close to the end) thirty or so Old World cities have been burned to the ground. Probably about a month after Dick's speech. Time and distance have no meaning in these books.

And with the Order's millions of army troops unable to stop this burning and ransacking? I'm sorry, I'm not an expert in military tactics, but it seems to me that unless the Orders' troops did nothing to stop Ricahrd's troops (which is unlikely), this is almost impossible, as they would have to contend opposition, and with little coordination and poor strategy and so little troops against millions, they would have been butchered.

I wonder how "tit for tat" works in this Objectivist philosophy. They killed our kids, so we'll kill their kids.

Hammurabis's code was never as sick and as twisted as Richard's.

[KAH]

So...basically the morale is that whoever starts the fight is to suffer whatever consequences the other one can dream up, together with anyone who happens to be in any way related to the aggressor, however evil and tactically foolish this is? Lovely...

[mormont]

It's quite interesting in a way... it's as if Mr G has realised that having everyone on the Imperial side be simply capital-E Evil for no reason is simply unbelievable, so he spends the early part of the speech explaining how they're actually misguided.

But unfortunately, that doesn't fit his plot: in order to morally justify Richard's plan, the Imperial Order do have to be all capital-E Evil. So he sets out to perform the necessary logical acrobatics to get from point A (misguided) to point B (Evil) and falls flat on his face. He can't do it. So instead, he just insists he has done it and carries on as if he has.

ETA - I get this impression from a number of Richard's speeches, actually... it's less Mr G spelling things out, more him thinking out loud in a rather convoluted manner, trying to make things fit.

[chicken incarnate]

That last quote of the day could have come straight out of the mouth of Goebbels (as others have said before).

These threads started out as godd entertainment, but reading more and more about Goodkinds philosophy I'm growing both scared and appalled.

I think todays quote nicely contrasts yesterdays quote, where Kahlan is describing the atrocities committed by the IO - yet Richard is ordering his soldiers to do the very same things.

[Seventh Pup]

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

Mad Moose your joking about the ears right? Richard did not actually ask for the civilians ears did he? Did he?

After the battle does GK then go on to descibe for 20 pages the piles of dead babies and children that Richard massecered? I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say no. Richard = noblely killing the defenseless, IO= Mercily killing the defenseless.

I some how think that speech won't make it into the movie.

[Moosicus]

I had to give this a try. I took a speech by Adolf Hitler to see how easily it could be changed to fit Terry (BBNC) and Richards world view. I changed Germany to D'Hara a couple of times, thats about it.

"Whoever, however, thinks he can oppose this national command, whether directly of indirectly, shall fall. We have nothing to do with traitors. We are all faithful to our old principle. It is quite important whether we ourselves live, but it is essential that our people shall live, that D'Hara shall live. The sacrifice that is demanded of us is not greater than the sacrifice that many generations have made. If we form a community closely bound together by vows, ready for anything, resolved never to surrender, then our will will master every hardship and difficulty. And I would like to close with the declaration that I once made when I began the struggle for power in the New World. I then said: "If our will is so strong that no hardship and suffering can subdue it, then our will and our D'Haran might shall prevail."

[The Wolf Maid]

But unfortunately, that doesn't fit his plot: in order to morally justify Richard's plan, the Imperial Order do have to be all capital-E Evil. So he sets out to perform the necessary logical acrobatics to get from point A (misguided) to point B (Evil) and falls flat on his face. He can't do it. So instead, he just insists he has done it and carries on as if he has.

So it's like: "They're evil because I said so, so now we are justified in killing them."

I think it was Nicci who explained the atrocities, Kahlan is not which Richard, she's with a Dark Sister.

"Whoever, however, thinks he can oppose this national command, whether directly of indirectly, shall fall. We have nothing to do with traitors. We are all faithful to our old principle. It is quite important whether we ourselves live, but it is essential that our people shall live, that D'Hara shall live. The sacrifice that is demanded of us is not greater than the sacrifice that many generations have made. If we form a community closely bound together by vows, ready for anything, resolved never to surrender, then our will will master every hardship and difficulty. And I would like to close with the declaration that I once made when I began the struggle for power in the New World. I then said: "If our will is so strong that no hardship and suffering can subdue it, then our will and our D'Haran might shall prevail."

That is very scary shit, TMM. It absolutely fits Richards's cause.

So now we really have to clone Hitler to play Richard.

[Red Sun]

That last quote of the day could have come straight out of the mouth of Goebbels (as others have said before).

These threads started out as godd entertainment, but reading more and more about Goodkinds philosophy I'm growing both scared and appalled.

I think todays quote nicely contrasts yesterdays quote, where Kahlan is describing the atrocities committed by the IO - yet Richard is ordering his soldiers to do the very same things.

Well, the whole story, as far as I can judge from the QotD, could come right away from one of these propaganda novels, quite popular in pre-WWII German, that would describe the barbarian ways of the Bolsheviks who kill and eat babies, rape women etc. It doesn't help the matter that the elite generals' name is Zimmer.

[Seventh Pup]

It's quite interesting in a way... it's as if Mr G has realised that having everyone on the Imperial side be simply capital-E Evil for no reason is simply unbelievable, so he spends the early part of the speech explaining how they're actually misguided.

But unfortunately, that doesn't fit his plot: in order to morally justify Richard's plan, the Imperial Order do have to be all capital-E Evil. So he sets out to perform the necessary logical acrobatics to get from point A (misguided) to point B (Evil) and falls flat on his face. He can't do it. So instead, he just insists he has done it and carries on as if he has.

ETA - I get this impression from a number of Richard's speeches, actually... it's less Mr G spelling things out, more him thinking out loud in a rather convoluted manner, trying to make things fit.

Shhhhh! There is no such thing as contradiction, so it is obvious that you are merely too deficient to understand the Yeardi's written word!

[Red Sun]

I had to give this a try. I took a speech by Adolf Hitler to see how easily it could be changed to fit Terry (BBNC) and Richards world view. I changed Germany to D'Hara a couple of times, thats about it.

"Whoever, however, thinks he can oppose this national command, whether directly of indirectly, shall fall. We have nothing to do with traitors. We are all faithful to our old principle. It is quite important whether we ourselves live, but it is essential that our people shall live, that D'Hara shall live. The sacrifice that is demanded of us is not greater than the sacrifice that many generations have made. If we form a community closely bound together by vows, ready for anything, resolved never to surrender, then our will will master every hardship and difficulty. And I would like to close with the declaration that I once made when I began the struggle for power in the New World. I then said: "If our will is so strong that no hardship and suffering can subdue it, then our will and our D'Haran might shall prevail."

Have also a look at this speech. It's a bit long, but the later parts are scarily similar.

[Moosicus]

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

Mad Moose your joking about the ears right? Richard did not actually ask for the civilians ears did he? Did he?

Terry (BBNC) needs no help from me to look absurd.

[Agulla]

It's The Iron Dream. Goodkind is writing the The Iron Dream but for real in front of our eyes while Norman Spinrad wrote it as a satire.

Check this link and read the review of not4prophet.

Anyone who's had the misfortune to come across books by Terry Goodkind or Robert Newcomb, for instance, knows how those authors hew uncomfortably close to the faux Hitler's celebration of fascism, genocide, and ultraviolent misogyny. (Interestingly Goodkind and Newcomb also duplicate the lesser details of "The Iron Dream", such as the hilarious abuse of phallic symbols and the creepy obsession with boots and skin-tight black leather for both genders. Perhaps Spinrad should consider a plagarism lawsuit.)

[The Wolf Maid]

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Whoa. The latest quote is reeling a lot of people in.

Excerpt from the Goebbels's speech, altered just a little:

I speak first to the world, and proclaim three theses regarding our fight against the Imperial Order.

This first thesis: Were the D'Haran (is this the riht term) army not in a position to break the danger from the Old Kingdom, D'Hara would fall to the Imperial Order, and all the world shortly afterwards.

Second: The D'Haran army, the D'Haran people and their allies alone have the strength to save the world from this threat.

Third: Danger faces us. We must act quickly and decisively, or it will be too late. Kill all non-believers!

[BranTheBuilder]

The problem with comparing Hitler and Richerd comes when you look at the quality of speach - Hitler was a much better public speaker, reading speaches that were were written by people far more literate (and intelligent0 then G--dK-nd (BBHN).

That aside, the overlap of content and attitude is truly terrifying! :sick: :sick: :sick:

[Thomas Hetz]

Hitler's speech sounded more moderate and reasonable than Richard's.

[Zelgrath]

I'd like to request a QOTD. There is a scene near the end of chainfire where Nicci is interogating sister Tovi in a D'Haran army camp. As far as I remember it's basically a long justification of why torture is ok for the good guys and is evil when the IO does it.

[Sad King Billy]

..... help. I'm sorry, but now I'm really scared. That last quote has so much wrong with it. First the fact that ,If TG's world had nukes, Richard would have used them. All of them. He would have made the Old World resemble the crater-covered face of Mercury, with the same temperatures on the light side.

Second, the stupid idea of starting a guerilla war in the Old World. AFAIK, guerilla works best on your home turf, where you know the terrain and the enemy doesn't. Where you have supplies easily at hand, and the enemy needs supply trains.

Third, how the fuck will massacres in the Old World demotivate the IO? If anything, it should give them reason for their own massacres...

Edit: and how does this fit in on the war on terrorism? And on the war against the ideology behind terrorism? (or whatever it was he claimed in that interview)

[BranTheBuilder]

It'll work because:

1) Richard Terry G--dK-nd (BBHN) is RIGHT

2) Richard Terry G--dK-nd (BBHN) has moral clarity on his side

3) the story will work out to prove Richard Terry G--dK-nd (BBHN) chose EXACTLY the best tactic for he is the HERO.

[14th Dragon]

As strategies go, it is pretty terrible.

As a way to win a philosophical war, it is worse.

As a method of bringing the world to your side, it is just stupid.

Is he seriously having entire cites burned to the ground? This is like advocating carpet bombing, when you have no airplanes. Not to mention, how is an inferior force going to actually burn down a city, it takes a lot of effort to get a city burning and keep it burning.

If it was just ambushing new recruits, burning supplies, or even going after foundries, mines, etc. Then you can make an argument, but engaging in unlimited war, off of your home turf, without suffecient numbers. No way that is going to work.

But Terry is horribly consistent. To him, one is not defined by action, good and evil are not decernible by action, they are a matter of philosophy only. Which while horrible to us, is his guiding theme. The fact that it mascrades as an absence of faith, it is ultimatly a complete surrender to it.

[Watcher]

Screw the Hitler / Gobbles comparison. That is the exact same rational Bin Linden used to crash four planes into their targets on 9/11.

This speech has really pissed me off. I’m trying really hard not to write something that will get me banned from this board.

Going for something bland and obvious here

Richard is describing a terrorist war against the Old World. In any other reality this is doomed from the start. A successful gorilla campaign has to have the local support to succeed