GRRM confirms: TWOW not done yet

[Mark Antony]

Lots can change in the years to come. I bet it will be 8 tbh

[Newstar]

Lots can change in the years to come. I bet it will be 8 tbh

This isn't a series like Supernatural, where the season arcs are pretty much contained and new ones can be generated at will as required. Because GOT is an adaptation, they have to plan in advance how many seasons they need, lest they run out of seasons (show gets axed before they thought it would) or run out of story (wind up the adaptation while the network would like to keep going). All indications are that they're planning for seven and that HBO considers even seven seasons "greedy," not unreasonable given how expensive this series is. Fannish panic and denial is unlikely to change that.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Lots can change in the years to come. I bet it will be 8 tbh

They know how much story they have, yet say 7 seasons because they plan it that way based on what they know. (which is basically everything including how it ends).

Just because you want 8..doesn't make it true.

[Ran]

Again, the context of "greedy" was taken by the interviewer as Lombardo knowing D&D were talking 7, but he and the other execs were mulling 8, which is why the number even came up. It's not a denial issue, it's simply that it's clear that it's not absolutely firm from HBO... and, in the Vanity Fair piece (_after_ that interview) D&D were looking at 7 or 8, and they're talking "at least" 7 seasons just a week or so ago.

It seems to me that they need to know going into breaking down season 6 whether they're going 7 or 8 seasons. If they know it by that point, that will be sufficient to the purpose. Storylines that they decided might be dropped from AFfC/ADwD could be introduced in S6 to help build towards 8 seasons, and so on.

Basically, the most recent material we can firmly date indicates 70-80 hours. It's probably up to the results of contract renegotiations for HBO to decide which way they'll go.

[Newstar]

They know how much story they have, yet say 7 seasons because they plan it that way based on what they know. (which is basically everything including how it ends).

Just because you want 8..doesn't make it true.

Yes. They know how much plot they have to cover, unlike the fans (who know only the fourth and fifth books and some sample chapters). If they think they can pull it off in seven seasons, and they actually know the plots of the remaining books and the outlines for all the characters, who are the fans to say otherwise? The vehement insistences from some fans that they couldn't possibly do it in seven strike me as a little silly.

Also, Ran, I'm pretty sure the Vanity Fair interview occurred well before the EW interview chronologically, even if they were published close together. It's quite likely that the seven seasons were firmed up in the interim, which makes a lot of sense since season 5 is being written right around now.

You're also misreading the greedy quote. It's quite clear in context that the exec considers that seven seasons would be greedy and bullish...which is entirely consistent with what we know of how expensive the show is.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Again, the context of "greedy" was taken by the interviewer as Lombardo knowing D&D were talking 7, but he and the other execs were mulling 8, which is why the number even came up. It's not a denial issue, it's simply that it's clear that it's not absolutely firm from HBO... and, in the Vanity Fair piece (_after_ that interview) D&D were looking at 7 or 8, and they're talking "at least" 7 seasons just a week or so ago.

It seems to me that they need to know going into breaking down season 6 whether they're going 7 or 8 seasons. If they know it by that point, that will be sufficient to the purpose. Storylines that they decided might be dropped from AFfC/ADwD could be introduced in S6 to help build towards 8 seasons, and so on.

Basically, the most recent material we can firmly date indicates 70-80 hours. It's probably up to the results of contract renegotiations for HBO to decide which way they'll go.

Hopefully it IS 8.

[Guest Thorrand]

Yes. They know how much plot they have to cover, unlike the fans (who know only the fourth and fifth books and some sample chapters). If they think they can pull it off in seven seasons, and they actually know the plots of the remaining books and the outlines for all the characters, who are the fans to say otherwise? The vehement insistences from some fans that they couldn't possibly do it in seven strike me as a little silly.

Also, Ran, I'm pretty sure the Vanity Fair interview occurred well before the EW interview chronologically, even if they were published close together. It's quite likely that the seven seasons were firmed up in the interim, which makes a lot of sense since season 5 is being written right around now.

You're also misreading the greedy quote. It's quite clear in context that the exec considers that seven seasons would be greedy and bullish...which is entirely consistent with what we know of how expensive the show is.

Thanks, I was going to say the same thing. I'm all for being optimistic, denying something you are flat out told isn't being optimistic. It's living in dream land. He was stating that most hbo series end after 7 or 8 seasons, and seven was good. I received no indication of tongue in cheek, wink wink from that at all. Don't get me wrong, I hope it doesn't end. I'd rather the books came out first, I just can't see anything but seven from what we were told.

[Mrmanakan]

They may have started slightly working on season 5 I'm sure D&D are atleast but as of right now it's not even signed for season 5 so how can you be so positive they are? For all we know after the first two episodes they could sign a deal for 4 more season to wrap it up. WE DONT KNOW how long it will be. And stating it will be 7 max at this like saying a year from today there will be like predicted the weather a year from now. They say they want atleast 7 seasons. But they might be able to do more. After this years contract negotiating and season 5 I think we'll have a much better idea. I truly doubt after the season 4 finale we will even know (unless a contracts been signed stating so) next years the year they really delve into the AFF/ADwD territory and there's tons of story lines to explore atleast a season to do them justice. I personally think unless they really strip down the adwd & feast it will be hard to get all it all in 3 seasons I feel 4-4.5 ties it up in a nice bow wrapped for our viewing pleasure.

That being said I think 7 is the minimum seasons we get and that 8.6 is the most. I think saying 9 seasons is very unlikely but still possible.

The show is the most successive show since the sopranos if I'm not mistaken which got 8 seasons I think they'll match it personally

But Newstar being so definite about 7 seasons seems kinda like an overreaction unless of course she's a seer

[Guest Thorrand]

But Newstar being so definite about 7 seasons seems kinda like an overreaction unless of course she's a seer

She doesn't have to be when the showrunners have explicitly stated 7... Now you're thinking 8.5 or 9? I wish I could be this delusional.

[Newstar]

Thanks, I was going to say the same thing. I'm all for being optimistic, denying something you are flat out told isn't being optimistic. It's living in dream land. He was stating that most hbo series end after 7 or 8 seasons, and seven was good. I received no indication of tongue in cheek, wink wink from that at all. Don't get me wrong, I hope it doesn't end. I'd rather the books came out first, I just can't see anything but seven from what we were told.

That EW article was very clear. The exec, Michael Lombardo, was saying that D&D were "bullish that there's enough story to deliver through seven seasons," and that while he hated to sound "greedy," seven would be a "nice, long run." This was coupled with Benioff "selling" seven season: seven seasons feels right, it was the goal the showrunners had since the beginning (supposedly) and what they always wanted even though a seven-season goal from the outset would be "lunacy," etc. etc. The subtext from that article could not be plainer to me: HBO wants to manage expectations that the series will be any longer than seven seasons (thus the soundbite from Lombardo and the positive quotes from D&D talking up how great a seven-season run will be), and the fans will take seven seasons and be grateful, since even seven seasons is "greedy."

I think reading that EW article--where D&D talk up the virtues of seven seasons and how it was always the plan, and where an HBO exec characterizes seven seasons as "greedy" and a "nice, long run"--and the most recent interview with an offhand, casual reference to season seven being "the end" and taking from that information that eight seasons is a likely or even possible outcome is akin to that scene from Dumb & Dumber:

"The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?"

"Not good."

"You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?"

"I'd say more like one out of a million."

"...So you're telling me there's a chance."

...Moreover, GRRM has alluded in his infamous movie interview to the series post-ADWD material being extremely expensive to film: lots of battles, lots of magic, lots of effects, etc. etc. If HBO is aware of the likelihood of production costs spiking in the future--and I have no reason to believe why they wouldn't be--you better believe they're going to plan to limit the series to as few seasons as they can possibly get away with to finish off the story. Thus the interview talking up the seven seasons, and GRRM sheepishly admitting he got in trouble for running off his mouth.

The show is the most successive show since the sopranos if I'm not mistaken which got 8 seasons I think they'll match it personally

The Sopranos makes for a poor comparison: it's not an adaptation, meaning it's not tethered to a pre-set narrative, and the cost and scope do not nearly compare. As successful as GOT currently is, it's very expensive.

Another thing to remember is that while GOT is successful at the moment, TV viewers are fickle. GOT's audience is growing now, but we're still in the process of viewing the best ASOIAF has had to offer to date: as far as the literary critics and many fans have been concerned, it's all downhill from here post-ASOS in terms of published material. It's hard to say whether TV viewers will be as invested once they hit AFFC/ADWD territory; I tend to doubt it, personally. Critics are fickle as well. GOT is already lagging in terms of critical acclaim compared to previous years: it was snubbed for major Golden Globes nods, and it was left off many critics' Best of 2013 TV lists in favour of newer, hotter shows. The competition for major awards is fierce these days, and GOT is slowly being edged out in favour of sexier, sleeker, higher-brow, less campy fare starring A-list celebrities (Kevin Spacey in House of Cards, likely Matthew McConaughey in True Detective in the next round of awards, etc. etc.). I was also struck when Season 3 aired by the number of critics complaining about GOT's fractured narrative, with too many storylines to keep track of; as we know that there will be even more storylines in the future to keep track of into AFFC and ADWD, this is not reassuring as to potential future critical support for the show beyond Season 4.

It's one thing to justify GOT's massive expense when it's got impressive, ever-climbing ratings and critical plaudits, but neither of those are a sure thing in the future, and both are likely to decline after Season 4. All the more reason for HBO to manage expectations and confine the show to seven seasons, maximum.

I personally think unless they really strip down the adwd & feast it will be hard to get all it all in 3 seasons I feel 4-4.5 ties it up in a nice bow wrapped for our viewing pleasure.

But you don't even know what "it all" is, not knowing the contents of the last two books. D&D do. Who are you to say what they can or can't accomplish in terms of adapting the remainder of the series when you're completely ignorant of the last two books (except for a few sample chapters)?

[lenniegroove]

I look forward to reading GRRM's adaptation of Game of Thrones Season 6 and 7

Game of Thrones is the kind of show that would translate well into print, don't you think?

[Credar]

I just read the new TV guide and Dan Weiss says "Season 4 if the pivot. Whether we go seven or eight years, we're smack-dab in the middle now."

So yeah, there IS a possibility of eight seasons. They just said it themselves.

Edit: It also says the dragons will be involved in a major plot point at season's end. I guess it means the eating of children. Goes to prove the idea that the dragons being chained up, or the 2nd chapter if you will, is going to be the end of Season 4 for Dany.

Also, some good news in the whole show passing the books. They say that they have talked about some things about the ending but that George also says a lot of the time "No. But you'll find out."

Good chance then that the ending is going to be much more different then we expected in the show if the show does pass the books.

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

Is it possible that GRRM gave D&D the endgame only thru TWoW? Maybe there are minimal cliffhangers in TWoW (false summits, so to speak) that would end the HBO series satisfactorily...but also would allow GRRM to have the final plot of ADoS all to himself?

[Mrmanakan]

@ Thorrand

First off I said 9 seasons is very unlikely if you actually read my post you would of read that part I said 8 seasons & that 8.6 is the max they'd do. But that 9 is possible and that we simply do not no. Do I think 9 hell no. I think atleast 7 but they'd like to do 8.

Is that so ridiculous? Not really?

@Newstar

"The Sopranos makes for a poor comparison: it's not an adaptation, meaning it's not tethered to a pre-set narrative, and the cost and scope do not nearly compare. As successful as GOT currently is, it's very expensive." Newstar quote

As to comparing it to the sopranos....uh sopranos was expensive more than deadwood which was 5$mil an episode (which was about GoT first season budget) sopranos started at 2 mil ended around 6.5mil an episode (more than GoT currently)

Right now it's at about 6 mil an episode(GoT) for season 4 (http://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-season-4-clip-production-design-featurette/) James gandolfini was paid just under a million an episode no one on GoT will ever be paid that much. Sopranos cost the same, actually a little more than GoT at times.

As to the scope and being tethered to a narrative, when watching the show has anyone ever felt the shows been scared to do it's own story lines or add things it feels will make the story better? I don't.

And the scope with the budget it's being shot at is very very impressive and frankly should continue as long as it can. It might be tethered by the books and the world and story is huge but your arguing against yourself. That's exactly why a lot of people think it needs more seasons.

I say do 8.6 seasons; I say throw an extra 160 million at it to make that extra season and a half & cut it in two. They're not losing money that for damn sure. DVD sells alone are impressive. 2 8 episode seasons making the same amount they would for the 10 ep DVD box sets they sell now and give the books their just due as they did with Storm of swords, clash and GoT.

Frankly Newstar your talkin out your ass.

You just say stuff with no proof except what 2 or 3 vague quotes by producers who don't even know for sure how long it's gonna be, who even said as much. They don't want to be greedy and say 7 but we'd like to do 7 or 8. You know they want it to be longer, and frankly who doesn't

[Mrmanakan]

I just did some more math to support my argument that 7 seasons isn't enough by doing page counts of books (us hard covers) and figuring out roughly page per episode per book.

I combined GoT & ACoK and with 20 episodes it's comes out to each episode being about

73 pages of book per episode

I then took Storm of swords and gave it 18 episodes because I figured 2 hours or around worth of AFFC/ADWD material: which is about

54 pages per episode

I then combined AFFC/ADWD and as some have claimed will only get one season so I gave it 12 episodes @ 12 episodes it's

150pages per episode (3x as many as SOS twice as many as the other books)

Feast & Dance At 18 episodes it's

100pages per episode

18 episodes means 2 hours worth this season and 1.6 seasons after this even at that it will still be the least per page per episode of the adaptation so far.

It's not doing the books any justice doing less than 18 episodes for feast and dance combined. As I've shown with the other books and how they've adapted it so far.

If we expect WoW and ADOS to be as long as SOS how can we expect them to adapt any less than 100pages per episode, it'll really be skinned and unfair compared to how they've done the first 3 books.

As fans that should be our expectations as well. That's the only way to do that books justice. I'd be disappointed if they skimped on any of the books.

Just my opinion.

8.6 seasons I say

[Credar]

I wouldn't be shocked if they did an extended final season and aired it during the Winter time instead to show that "WINTER HAS COME! GET HYPE!" for promotional reasons as well as give the show the time it needs to complete an extra 5 or so episodes.

[Arya Summer Child]

It is so easy. Simply 7 or 8 seasons. No more.

[ForgottenCrypts]

I wouldn't be shocked if they did an extended final season and aired it during the Winter time instead to show that "WINTER HAS COME! GET HYPE!" for promotional reasons as well as give the show the time it needs to complete an extra 5 or so episodes.

That would be totally awesome!

[Newstar]

I just read the new TV guide and Dan Weiss says "Season 4 if the pivot. Whether we go seven or eight years, we're smack-dab in the middle now."

Again, the EW interview seems much more clear on the seven seasons number, since seven seasons was "always the plan."

Also, some good news in the whole show passing the books. They say that they have talked about some things about the ending but that George also says a lot of the time "No. But you'll find out."

Good chance then that the ending is going to be much more different then we expected in the show if the show does pass the books.

In the Vanity Fair interview, Benioff said that in the Santa Fe 2013 meeting, the writers said that they needed to know how everything ends, and they went "through every character" with GRRM. GRRM then says that he could tell them the "broad strokes" of what he intends to write, but the "details" aren't there yet. So the writers have a blueprint to take them through the end of ADOS, in terms of "broad strokes" of every character's fate: a Cliff's Notes-type summary of the books, or something very near. Of course, ASOIAF being a very complex work, a Cliff's Notes-type summary is going to gloss over a lot of the details, which would explain why there are still lingering questions to which GRRM's answer is "You'll find out." A Cliff's Notes-type summary isn't going to cover Easter Egg-type questions like, oh, I dunno, "Is the Sailor's Wife Tysha?" if the answer has no real bearing on Tysha's fate, any other character's fate, or on the outcome of the books.

I could also see a Cliff's Notes-type summary leaving out details that would really change how things play out. As a hypothetical example:

1. Virtually no detail: Sansa kills Littlefinger and leaves the Vale

2. Some more detail: Sansa uses the Strangler from the hairnet she smuggled from KL to kill Littlefinger and leaves the Vale with the help of the Mad Mouse

3. Even more detail: Sansa uses the Strangler from the hairnet she smuggled from KL to kill Littlefinger at a feast attended by the Vale lords and is able to murder him undetected, learns that her brothers are still alive from a raven sent, reveals herself as Sansa Stark, and leaves the Vale with the help of the Mad Mouse

If #1 is all the detail D&D receive, then unless they receive an advance draft of TWOW or something, there will be a huge difference between what the TV series shows and what happens in the books. It all depends on how "broad" the broad strokes are.

As to comparing it to the sopranos....uh sopranos was expensive more than deadwood which was 5$mil an episode (which was about GoT first season budget) sopranos started at 2 mil ended around 6.5mil an episode (more than GoT currently)

Right now it's at about 6 mil an episode(GoT) for season 4 (http://screenrant.co...ign-featurette/) James gandolfini was paid just under a million an episode no one on GoT will ever be paid that much. Sopranos cost the same, actually a little more than GoT at times.

Exactly. GOT is currently $6 million an episode, almost as expensive as The Sopranos in its most expensive season, and the costs are going up every season and will be likely much higher for Season 5 (due to the expanded scope). If GRRM is right about the post-ADWD material containing extremely expensive material to film, those costs will not only increase beyond ADWD material, but spike. The Sopranos was $6.5 million per episode in its final season. GOT is nowhere near that, and each season keeps getting more and more expensive to film.

And the scope with the budget it's being shot at is very very impressive and frankly should continue as long as it can. It might be tethered by the books and the world and story is huge but your arguing against yourself. That's exactly why a lot of people think it needs more seasons.

As for the scope, last time I checked, The Sopranos wasn't filmed on four continents. :D And even if it's cheaply done for the product produced--debatable, frankly (those atrocious wigs are surprisingly expensive, for one)--it's still insanely expensive, a cost that will become more and more difficult to justify as viewership plateaus and declines and critical interest drops off in favour of newer, hotter shows. "A lot of people" might think it needs more seasons, but a "lot of people" aren't bankrolling this show, and HBO is signalling--apparently not clearly enough for some people--that seven is as bullish and as greedy as they're inclined to get.

I just did some more math to support my argument that 7 seasons isn't enough by doing page counts of books (us hard covers) and figuring out roughly page per episode per book.

Your calculations assume that there isn't a lot of fat to be trimmed from AFFC and ADWD, a strange assumption given what we know of the books' content and their "density" in terms of meaningful plot advancement. X pages of text do not automatically translate into X amount of substantive material worthy or even capable of adaptation. The show has been pretty brutal post-Season 1 in omitting anything that doesn't meaningfully advance the plot in some way (with the exception of some Lannister scenes, since the writers love their Lannisters), and that leaves a lot of AFFC and ADWD out. For all we know, TWOW and ADOS will be similarly bloated and capable of considerable streamlining for TV adaptation. Honestly, what I've seen of the sample TWOW chapters is not terribly reassuring on that score.

[Moondancer]

Agreed. Hmmm...whose deaths in the showrunners' minds would be considered unpredictable? Arya or one of the other Starks, for sure. Probably Brienne and Daenerys as well.

Whatever, I'm all for shocking character deaths and even outside the show, we've been assuming a lot of characters will die in TWOW to tie up loose ends and streamline the plot. Let the bloodbath begin!

The showrunners are clever (picking up on R+L stuff) but not raging with theories (they weren't surprised at the future IT holder = they find it amazing, but unlike fans, didn't consider the option of independence); so I would say Jon - we've figured it out, and expect to see narrative boons on wider scale with this particular story arc and then - bam, dead for good. Dany, the great conqueror, dead as well.

My first thought was Tyrion! - it works on both levels,brings about horror stricken shouts from the readers and watchers alike; same as Arya, though I find the prospect sad. But exciting. :D

Tyrion would certainly zap out the life in the show, given his frontrunner position.

Oh yeah, bring back the neatness of shocking deaths and small number of POVs. Neat. Neatsy :lol: