GRRM confirms: TWOW not done yet

[Zman1863]

I don't think anyone here is thinking Feast/Dance will least 2/3 seasons, but I think it is reasonable to assume that it won't last LESS than 1 season. That just seems insane on many levels. I think the best bet and way to make it work for everyone, even George, is to make it so Dance goes until the halfway point of Season 6 (Feast being completed at the end of Season 5/ a few scenes at the beginning of Season 6), and have TWOW beginning for characters with few chapters at the beginning of Season 6 and the main bulk of TWOW beginning halfway through Season 6.

Then again, this can only happen if the show is given 8 seasons, or enough episodes that it would total what 8 seasons would be (Like a 20 episode Season 7 released in 2 parts.) But just based on the pace of the show, it seems reasonable to assume there will be 8 seasons rather than 7.

I think it would be very problematic for the writers to try to drag out the Feast/Dance plots beyond the end of season 5. Since its a show, the character arcs need to be rounded out for the viewers every season. When this doesn't correspond with the character's climatic points in the book, the show needs to embelish to create a resolution for that character's season.

Take Dany for example. Last season they had to stop with Dany at Yunkai and spun her emergence as the mother figure for the slaves into the resolution of her season 3 story. This season, it looks from the promotions we have seen that Dany's story will go beyond her actual ASOS resolution- the decision to stay and rule Meereen while her dragons grow- into ADWD material. As a result, the viewer is likely to see Dany run into many of her ADWD problems. Presumably she will spend season 5 grappling with the same issues, and the natural resolution is Dany's flight from Meereen to conclude season 5. Drag her vacillating course into season 6 and many of the viewers would revolt. They are going to be unhappy enough that Khalessi and her dragons haven't moved an inch toward Westeros through most of season 4 and 5.

[Credar]

Well, on the Dany issue, I think that going up to the point where the Dragons are chained up would be a good ending point to Season 4. Then, have the pit happen in the final episode of Season 5. Then the beginning of Season 6 is the Barristan/Quentyn/Tyrion in Mereen plotlines that build until halfway, around episode 4 or 5, in which we get the Battle of Mereen. Since Dany's last ADWD and probably first TWOW chapter will probably take place during the Barristan plotline, inject her every once and a while during the episodes to tease her return to the spotlight. Problem solved.

The only problem is that they would probably have to spoil Quentyn's mission before the Fire and Blood speech, unless of course they don't specifically state he is going to Mereen to marry Dany. Maybe hint at other options and have Doran's speech followed by Quentyn proposing to Dany, thus giving Quentyn character time while not revealing the Dornish plot.

Tyrion becoming a slave is a big character change that could be the end of the season for him. Jon marrying Alys off or allowing Tormund's men through could be the end of his Season 5 arc.

Remember, character plotlines don't always have to end at a perfect point for that character. Remember Brienne and Jaime in the 2nd season? They have like 1 or 2 scenes on the road and it ends anticlimactically for them. And I would say that the 3 endings I brought up aren't as anticlimactic.

[Mel_Rose]

^ Tbh, I 'll be suprised if I see Quentyn cast in the show.

[Ser Eric]

^ Tbh, I 'll be suprised if I see Quentyn cast in the show.

Really? Sure he didn't amount to much in the end but to leave him out completely would be bizarre.

[sifth]

Well, on the Dany issue, I think that going up to the point where the Dragons are chained up would be a good ending point to Season 4. Then, have the pit happen in the final episode of Season 5. Then the beginning of Season 6 is the Barristan/Quentyn/Tyrion in Mereen plotlines that build until halfway, around episode 4 or 5, in which we get the Battle of Mereen. Since Dany's last ADWD and probably first TWOW chapter will probably take place during the Barristan plotline, inject her every once and a while during the episodes to tease her return to the spotlight. Problem solved.

The only problem is that they would probably have to spoil Quentyn's mission before the Fire and Blood speech, unless of course they don't specifically state he is going to Mereen to marry Dany. Maybe hint at other options and have Doran's speech followed by Quentyn proposing to Dany, thus giving Quentyn character time while not revealing the Dornish plot.

Tyrion becoming a slave is a big character change that could be the end of the season for him. Jon marrying Alys off or allowing Tormund's men through could be the end of his Season 5 arc.

Remember, character plotlines don't always have to end at a perfect point for that character. Remember Brienne and Jaime in the 2nd season? They have like 1 or 2 scenes on the road and it ends anticlimactically for them. And I would say that the 3 endings I brought up aren't as anticlimactic.

Dany would have to do nothing for nearly all of season 5 if they did that. I didn't remember Dany doing a whole lot prior to her wedding and the pit.

[Woman of War]

Not that your opinion is invalid or anything of the like, but this particular opinion (which many share) frustrates me to no end. About 70% of asoiaf has been build up, and that is ADWD biggest strength. So the book ended in ridiculous cliffhangers for everyone, so it's a bad book? People are crazy for enjoying the book that literally starts setting the board and getting the important characters where they need to be? I must be absolutely bonkers then. I may be alone here but I love the way ADWD ended. I was hoping to see Tyrion meet Dany, but honestly I didn't really care that we didn't get the battles yet. More to look forward to in the next book for some, but I felt ADWD reached a good climax without the battle and battles are easily not one of my favorite things to read about. They can be cool, but I love this story for the radical character development and the complexity of what is happening and how it affects everything else, which I feel is something Dance did very well. Plus it had some of my favorite scenes in it. I get it, the pace was slower and admittedly Martin meandered and gave into description, but I was never bored and it all served character development and a further understanding of this world. ADWD is probably my third favorite book of the series, right in the middle. It's not the garbage many people make it out to be (not pointing fingers to anyone on this forum specifically, I'm just tired of people ragging so hard on an amazing book that doesn't deserve that level of negativity).

Well, got my pro-ADWD rant out of the way.

Now I have to scour the internet in search of something else to get overly passionate about..

I so much :agree:

Had to say that before the thread is over

[Lady Redbush]

I'm sure the whole Sons of the Harpy will be turned into a murder mystery dinner theater style plotline so D+D don't have to got more than one or two episodes without Dany. Oh and don't forget that this is airing on HBO so I'm fairly certain that we will have to experience the full effect of the "50 Shades of Daario" plot. :ack:

[Whitering]

I'm sure the whole Sons of the Harpy will be turned into a murder mystery dinner theater style plotline so D+D don't have to got more than one or two episodes without Dany. Oh and don't forget that this is airing on HBO so I'm fairly certain that we will have to experience the full effect of the "50 Shades of Daario" plot. :ack:

Except wasn't it the woman who plays Dany told the producers she won't do anymore nude scenes? I don't watch the show but I did here that somewhere. So, hopefully if you are not a fan it won't be that graphic. It was probably worse in the book because in the show you won't know she's thinking about him all the time.

[Lady Redbush]

Except wasn't it the woman who plays Dany told the producers she won't do anymore nude scenes? I don't watch the show but I did here that somewhere. So, hopefully if you are not a fan it won't be that graphic. It was probably worse in the book because in the show you won't know she's thinking about him all the time.

I thought the girl that played Ros the whore was the chick who refused to do more nude scenes? I'm not a huge fan of the show because of the obvious white-washing of certain characters while butchering others. The showrunners just seem to have an eternal boner for Daenerys for whatever reason so the characters are almost unrecognizable from the book to the show. I hope GRRM is writing his little heart out to finish TWOW before the show catches him :)

[Werthead]

I don't think anyone here is thinking Feast/Dance will least 2/3 seasons, but I think it is reasonable to assume that it won't last LESS than 1 season.

The general assumption seems to be that it's going to be about 1.5: maybe half of Season 4, backed up by Brienne's AFFC story beginning in Episode 4, Bran's ADWD story beginning in Episode 2 and Dany's by mid-season, and then most or all of Season 5, ending with one of the two big battles from the start of Season 6 (and the other being used to open Season 6). That seems pretty doable and realistic, with some judicious pruning back of storylines and character arcs.

[Kahryl]

Honestly I hope Storm gets squeezed into 1.5 seasons and Feast/Dance together take 1. That is:

Season 4: Wraps up Storm, gets Feast/Dance started

Season 5: Wraps up Feast/Dance, gets Winds started asap.

That way you've got a total of 2.5 seasons for Winds/Spring, and considering that's when the "real" fight takes place, it should have as much room to grow as possible.

D&D are facing four significant problems:

1. Feast and Dance are uneventful and introduce massive amounts of sidetracking and tier 3 characters they need to sort through.

2. They have 7 seasons, a maximum of 8, to tell a three part story, the first part of which took them 3.5 seasons (longer than even GRRM who told it in 3!). That means the rest have to be compressed into about 2 each, probably less.

3. There is a natural problem with the story structure in that the "game of thrones" part was intended to be the backstory for the "ice and fire" magicky part, but the "game of thrones" is what made the series explosively popular (both in book and TV form). The transition to "ice and fire" needs to start early or it will feel unnatural and tacky.

4. Adding to all the pressure is the fact that the child actors are rapidly ageing.

The key to all four problems IMO is to cut Feast and Dance absolutely brutally and move on. Anything introduced in these books that doesn't have a clear role in the endgame has to be cut. Anyone who isn't cut should have his or her appearance delayed until he/she actually does something of importance!

The plot needs to be tightly character driven - by a HANDFUL of characters, the way it was in GoT. Anything more is a recipie for stalling out like the books have done. The 3 Lannister children, the 5 Stark children, the ONE Targaryen child. Anything not immediately related to them had better be damned important. And I say this as a Stannis fan!

[Moondancer]

You know [Thrones author] George R.R. Martin's master plan. Is there a character on this show whose loss would really zap a lot of the life from the series?

Benioff: There are some characters who will die that I wont think people will predict. And as George has said, were killing off more characters than in the books and will continue to do so.

Weiss: There are several characters whose loss will do that. But it doesnt mean they wont die.

Source

Whenever TWoW comes... It will be awesome.

[Guest Thorrand]

You know [Thrones author] George R.R. Martin's master plan. Is there a character on this show whose loss would really zap a lot of the life from the series?

Benioff: There are some characters who will die that I wont think people will predict. And as George has said, were killing off more characters than in the books and will continue to do so.

Weiss: There are several characters whose loss will do that. But it doesnt mean they wont die.

Source

Whenever TWoW comes... It will be awesome.

Agreed. I got this from there as well though.

And our dragons are still not even close to that. By the time we get to the end, season seven, that’s where they have to get to — assuming they survive.

Can we agree to stop speculating about a possible season 8? It's not going to happen.

[Ran]

They literally talked about "at least" that many like a week ago. Don't make too much of any remarks they make short of someone asking them again, point blank, if they're absolutely set on 7.

[Guest Thorrand]

This late in the game, I find it hard to imagine they're at a point where they can't decide how many there will be without completely disrupting the flow of the story. Without everything working toward an ending or will start declining in viewers.

[Newstar]

You know [Thrones author] George R.R. Martin's master plan. Is there a character on this show whose loss would really zap a lot of the life from the series?

Benioff: There are some characters who will die that I wont think people will predict. And as George has said, were killing off more characters than in the books and will continue to do so.

Weiss: There are several characters whose loss will do that. But it doesnt mean they wont die.

Source

Whenever TWoW comes... It will be awesome.

Agreed. Hmmm...whose deaths in the showrunners' minds would be considered unpredictable? Arya or one of the other Starks, for sure. Probably Brienne and Daenerys as well.

Whatever, I'm all for shocking character deaths and even outside the show, we've been assuming a lot of characters will die in TWOW to tie up loose ends and streamline the plot. Let the bloodbath begin!

[Guest Thorrand]

“I would say it’s the goal we’ve had from the beginning,” Benioff says. “It was our unstated goal, because to start on a show and say your goal is seven seasons is the height of lunacy. Once we got to the point where we felt like we’re going to be able to tell this tale to its conclusion, that became [an even clearer] goal. Seven gods, seven kingdoms, seven seasons. It feels right to us.”

Seven sounds okay to HBO, as well. Or perhaps eight. “I’m expecting to be sitting down with Dan and David to talk season 5 and we’ll talk about how things are looking,” says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “We’re all very mindful that they’re having conversations all the time with [author George R.R. Martin]. I think they do feel bullish enough that there’s enough story to deliver through season 7. I hate to sound greedy, but our longest shows have gone 7 or 8 seasons, so seven is a nice long run for us.”

I'm just not seeing much evidence for a season eight. I keep seeing seven everywhere, and an exec saying the longest running HBO shows last 7-8 seasons...

[Ran]

Well, right in the very piece you quoted, the writer goes from D&D saying seven, to then prefixing the piece with Lombardo with eight. And then you see why: Lombardo mentions the figure of 7 "or 8" in the context of "hat[ing] to sound greedy". I.E, the way Lombardo put things in the interview, that "or 8" may well have been bolded and triple-underlined, with an added wink for good measure, implying that HBO is not firm on seven seasons and is actively thinking that eight may be a good number in the end.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not so sure about season 4 containing much AFfC/ADwD material. There seems to be a lot of invented/loosely based on stuff, but not so much actual venturing into AFfC/ADwD territory.

1. Bran apparently hangs out at Craster's, delaying his arrival at the hill of the Children - the title of the final episode may indicate that he only meets the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven in the final episode (which would be the natural conclusion of his arc this season, anyway).

2. Theon apparently gets the Moat Cailin chapter of ADwD, but since that does not seem to be connected to the fake Arya thing, it's pretty sure we won't get that far into ADwD. Asha's attack on the Dreadfort is all invented stuff which will either change the story completely, or delay Balon's death and Euron's subsequent introduction/rise.

3. Brienne begins her quest most likely in episode 5 (she gets Oathbreaker in 4, I presume, and leaves in the next episode). Whatever she does may 'loosely based' on some of her AFfC chapters, or completely invented stuff She certainly won't go through to her hanging in season 4.

4. Dany will also venture somewhat into ADwD territory, but we really don't know if it will go much further than the attacks on the Unsullied/freedmen, the chaining of the dragons, and Dany's final decision to stay in Meereen. That would be the natural point to conclude her arc in that season. They will also add invented to create the fallout Dany and Jorah and his subsequent banishment, and kick off the Dany-Daario affair early, I imagine.

That's about it, I think. Only Bran will be truly deep in ADwD territory at the beginning of season 5, and that would have been the case anyway, even if they had concluded season 4 at the point we left him in season 3. He has only three chapters in ADwD.

Tyrion, Jon, Stannis, Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Cersei won't venture in AFfC/ADwD territory. That would seriously ruin the conclusion of their ASoS arcs, which are all priceless cliffhangers/natural ending points in the books. It would be stupid to ruin any of them.

I can easily imagine AFfC/ADwD as two seasons without portraying the two battles in the end. Especially if they want to keep the Jon/Stannis cliffhanger intact. They may be intend to wrap the show up after 7/8 seasons, but this does not mean that they are eager to venture into adapting unpublished material. They can always invent their own stuff to add 'additional flavor/highlight their own favorite characters, and invent a their own rather abrupt ending for the series.

There is simply no way they can faithfully adapt AFfC, ADwD, TWoW, and ADoS if there are only three seasons after season 4, especially not if TWoW and ADoS have about as much pages as ASoS and ADwD (not to mention the very likely possibility that GRRM will not be able to wrap up the series in only two more books).

The (POV) character bloodbath people seem were already imagining before ADwD came out did not come. I do expect some people to die in TWoW, but that's not necessarily bringing the story to a quicker end (and it could actually complicate the writing process since GRRM might then be forced to add another POVs to continue the story).

[Newstar]

Eh, I would not put too weight on that bit of copy. The quote plainly states that SEVEN would be being greedy and "a nice long run." Not to mention that the quote was in the middle of an article where the showrunners talked up the seven seasons being a nice number, symmetrical, etc. etc.

The quote about seven seasons being "the end" from D&D reinforces this interpretation, not Ran's. Speculating about eight seasons at this point is like speculating about a movie. Just because it's been mentioned doesn't mean it has any shot at happening. I doubt the seven seasons article would have happened had the decision not already been made, and the D&D dragon quote supports that.