Starks Among Us Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 When Ned says he smelled roses and blood when he found Lyanna, I thought the roses were there to cover the smell of blood/sickness. Not too sure about the dead and black petals though. If it was the same crown of roses from the tourney, then Lyanna would have had them in possesion from the tourney to dissapearance; the tower and all in between. And not rotted or crumbled away.On her abduction, has anyone came up with a good idea where she would have dissapeared from with a witness and without interference?I doubt she was watched too closely at all times, she could have disappeared from almost anywhere at anytime without a witness. However, regardless of where/when she disappeared, I would think it would be noticed within 12-24 hours. Unless one person thought she was supposed to be somewhere and the other person thought she was supposed to be somewhere else (ie teenage kids telling there respective parents they're going to so and so's house only to go to another place entirely) then she would have had more time.Also we don't know much about Maester Walys other than Barbery Dustin was not a fan, maybe he could have had some role that we as yet have not been told about. He's a Maester and supposed to be trusted but for all we know he could have trussed Lyanna up like a Christmas goose and handed her over to someone. Or he could have poisoned her on her death bed - or any outrageous plot in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 This is where this argument falls to pieces to me, In the end R took advantage of a young girl that was infatuated with him so he could fulfil some prophecy.I can't see this as "love".Lyanna was the only daughter, sorry had I been Rickard I'd be watching that like a hawk.She probably felt a bit sheltered at home .I can't see any plausible situation where a relationship between these two could have developed. She got Sansaerd , are going to say that Sansa was "in love" with Joffery?Another thing I find odd, of all the tales of R prior to him learning of the prophecy we never hear of this dude even winking at a woman.Are we sure he wasn't you know...batting for the other team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks Among Us Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 This is where this argument falls to pieces to me, In the end R took advantage of a young girl that was infatuated with him so he could fulfil some prophecy.I can't see this as "love".She got Sansaerd , are going to say that Sansa was "in love" with Joffery?Another thing I gind odd, of all the tales of R prior to him learning of the prophecy we never here of this dude even winking at a woman.Are we sure he wasn't you know...batting for tge other team?1) I suppose a relationship could have developed later... Once they knew eachother...2) nice comparison! That really puts it in a different (and very clear) perspective! Hopefully R wasn't sadistic as J though.3) well.... I've wondered that myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I doubt she was watched too closely at all times, she could have disappeared from almost anywhere at anytime without a witness. However, regardless of where/when she disappeared, I would think it would be noticed within 12-24 hours. :agree: I think she was similar to Arya -- resourceful, determined, smart. If Arya can engineer multiple assassinations and get away with it, before she even hits puberty, I think Lyanna could have found a way to vanish almost anywhere at fifteen years old or so. Another thing I find odd, of all the tales of R prior to him learning of the prophecy we never hear of this dude even winking at a woman.Are we sure he wasn't you know...batting for the other team? I also note that Connington is very coy in his choice of phrasing on this topic. He says he wanted to be worthy of Rhaegar's love. Well, that could easily mean either 1. He didn't have Rhaegar's love and wanted to earn it, or 2. He did have Rhaegar's love, but never felt he deserved it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks Among Us Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 :agree: I think she was similar to Arya -- resourceful, determined, smart. If Arya can engineer multiple assassinations and get away with it, before she even hits puberty, I think Lyanna could have found a way to vanish almost anywhere at fifteen years old or so. I also note that Connington is very coy in his choice of phrasing on this topic. He says he wanted to be worthy of Rhaegar's love. Well, that could easily mean either 1. He didn't have Rhaegar's love and wanted to earn it, or2. He did have Rhaegar's love, but never felt he deserved itSeriously - am I the only one who remembers reading somewhere that Jon was named for Jon con??? Starting to question my sanity and ability to recall information... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Not heard that one before. There was a fan theory that Jon may have been named by Ned after Jon Arryn, which is at least plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Seriously - am I the only one who remembers reading somewhere that Jon was named for Jon con??? Starting to question my sanity and ability to recall information... I think (don't hold me to this) that the closest GRRM has gotten to addressing this question is the SSM here. If Ned named Jon, then Jon Arryn was very likely the reference (if there was a reference -- maybe Ned just likes the name Jon). On the other hand, GRRM only says Jon was "most like" named by Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks Among Us Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I think (don't hold me to this) that the closest GRRM has gotten to addressing this question is the SSM here. If Ned named Jon, then Jon Arryn was very likely the reference (if there was a reference -- maybe Ned just likes the name Jon). On the other hand, GRRM only says Jon was "most like" named by Ned.Maybe I just drew my own conclusions then. I mean Jon and R were close, close enough that I think Aerys banned him hand to help bring R to heel. Also Jon talks about not wanting to fail the son like he did the father, referring to R as his silver Prince, his distaste for Elia...I think they may have had a covert Renly/Loras relationship. Maybe with all of this I just made the conclusion in my head that Jon was named for Jon Con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Also Jon talks about not wanting to fail the son like he did the father, referring to R as his silver Prince, his distaste for Elia...I think they may have had a covert Renly/Loras relationship. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're right. And really, this thing about Ned naming Jon is not a flat statement like "Rhaegar was cremated." It's shifty... it's got that evasive, hypothetical quality to it that GRRM loves so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Possibly, but if anybody other than Ned named him it could only have been Lyanna as Rhaegar was dead well before he was born Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Benjen II Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 This is where this argument falls to pieces to me, In the end R took advantage of a young girl that was infatuated with him so he could fulfil some prophecy.I can't see this as "love".Lyanna was the only daughter, sorry had I been Rickard I'd be watching that like a hawk.She probably felt a bit sheltered at home .I can't see any plausible situation where a relationship between these two could have developed. She got Sansaerd , are going to say that Sansa was "in love" with Joffery?Another thing I find odd, of all the tales of R prior to him learning of the prophecy we never hear of this dude even winking at a woman.Are we sure he wasn't you know...batting for the other team?There is that JonCon POV that makes JonCon and Rhaegar seem like they were an earlier version of Renly and Loras. And I don't believe for a second Rhaegar loved Lyanna before possibly developing love after spending time with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Benjen II Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Seriously - am I the only one who remembers reading somewhere that Jon was named for Jon con??? Starting to question my sanity and ability to recall information...It was after Jon Arryn as far as I know. Can't even remember if that info is in book though.Not heard that one before. There was a fan theory that Jon may have been named by Ned after Jon Arryn, which is at least plausible.Oh ok it's just a fan theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starks Among Us Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Possibly, but if anybody other than Ned named him it could only have been Lyanna as Rhaegar was dead well before he was bornOr so we've been led to believe... But my thoughts on THAT are completely bonkers - so I'll just keep them to myself.On the other hand - maybe Rhaegar made his wishes known before they separated. Although "name our baby for my man lover" may have been an awkward convo to have with the mistress that's preggers with your bambino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 It was after Jon Arryn as far as I know. Can't even remember if that info is in book though. IIRC, the only time it was mentioned was when Lord Godric was speaking to Davos about Ned needing to find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. According to him the fishermans daughter named her son Jon Snow, after Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Possibly, but if anybody other than Ned named him it could only have been Lyanna as Rhaegar was dead well before he was born What Lyanna asked Ned to promise her was....."promise me Ned, that when he becomes of age you will let him know his real name is....Kunta Kinte". :cool4: In all seriousness, I suspect than Ned did name him Jon (most likely after Jon Arryn), which would make sense irrespective if Jon was Ned's bastard or is the offspring of R+L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Benjen II Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Maybe I just drew my own conclusions then. I mean Jon and R were close, close enough that I think Aerys banned him hand to help bring R to heel. Also Jon talks about not wanting to fail the son like he did the father, referring to R as his silver Prince, his distaste for Elia...I think they may have had a covert Renly/Loras relationship. Maybe with all of this I just made the conclusion in my head that Jon was named for Jon Con.Well that would assume that Rhaegar is Jon's father or at least was the one who named him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Benjen II Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 I wouldn't be at all surprised if you're right. And really, this thing about Ned naming Jon is not a flat statement like "Rhaegar was cremated." It's shifty... it's got that evasive, hypothetical quality to it that GRRM loves so much.And even the full Rhaegar was cremated quote was highly evasive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Wait i just realized something,if JonCon and R had been so close would JonCon had been in the loop about R+L and any possible baby and relationship. He had enough distaste for Elia why are there no feelings about Lya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Benjen II Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Possibly, but if anybody other than Ned named him it could only have been Lyanna as Rhaegar was dead well before he was bornWell we don't actually have any confirmation that Rhaegar is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 On the other hand - maybe Rhaegar made his wishes known before they separated. Although "name our baby for my man lover" may have been an awkward convo to have with the mistress that's preggers with your bambino. Really don't see Rhaegar being responsible. If he had any input into the naming it would surely have been a Targaryen name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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