[Book Spoilers] Oberyn introduction

[Ironborn Iditarod]

Really? A crab louse you say? Allow me to take issue with this.

Whilst not necessarily a man of honour, Oberyn is loyal unto death. He is loyal to his disabled brother, to his deceased sister and to his beloved daughters, but above all he is loyal unto himself. He wants to pursue knowledge? He studies a few years as a Maester (the only other noblemen that we know of who have done that are Maester Amon and Samwell Tarly, so he is in bloody good company, as us English are wont to say).

He is bisexual and lascivious? He does not pretend to be anything else, he is upfront about his sexuality and very honorably declines to get married, insofar as we know, only the Blackfish or perhaps Benjen Stark has taken a similar decision. Tyrion is comparable but even he gave in to social, family pressure and married Sansa against his best inclinations. He respects his current lover with whom he has been for over ten years and does not care that she is not of noble birth.

He treats women as equal and loves his daughters. Again he could have disowned each and every one of his female bastards but he did not do so, compare him in this to Ned. He treats them as individuals, he ensures they are educated, he respects that they all have different personalities and helps them build on their strengths. He even sets boundaries, none of his daughters is going to grow up like Joff, he tells them "if you ever have problems with men, don't come crying to me, I have given you the necessary resources to deal with the problem yourself". That is the true purpose of any good education, independence and autonomy.

Yes I am biased but I think I have provided more than sufficient arguments to say that Oberyn Martell, Prince of Dorne is no louse. Produce your own or shut up!

:agree: :bowdown: Brilliant response...not sure how one can categorize book Oberyn as a "real piece of crap" unless they're just the type of person who disagrees with book Oberyn's lifestyle choices. In which case, that doesn't mean he's a piece of crap, just has a different moral barometer than you.

[Kasporio]

Ok Oberyn is awesome, somewhat feminist, freeminded character....

He's also treacherous, and nihilistic. You're clearly a fan of him. Ok. I'm not, neither of Greg. The duel decided of their fate. That's poetic justice to me. Oberyn was mad about Clegane for killing Elia and her children, not for the sake of all people, including women and children, Gregor had caused. Oberyn, as a aristocrat, probably considered lowborn as nothing more than manure or servants.

The fact he was not heavily involved in his daughters upbringing somewhat shows he really never cared for.

He is the archetype of the debauched and elitist nobility. He really have no morals, in my opinion, because people like that believe they are not bound by social rules and obey only to their urges.

Your second argument was about his sexuality. It isnt particularly emphasized in the books. He's rumoured to like boys, but its a common way to defame ennemies, true or false.

Confirmed in the show, but as i said, TV Oberyn seems far more pleasant. In the books we are told he was a maester and got bored, and he had his own sellsword company, which shows he is a rather dark character, since sellswords are often bottom feeders or total psycho.

To me, he's just like Cersei, Ramsay, and others, they're cool because they do horrendous things, and justify it with a trauma of sort.

He probably had some redeeming qualities, his family has true devotion to him. But he really had the morality of a louse crab. Who lived by the sword

[Dildo_Baggins]

Turn it around and look at it again. Oberyn is the brother of the High Lord.

What would happen if someone called Kevan Lannister a 'goat fucker' to his face with witnesses? Or Stannis Baratheon as younger brother of Robert? There would be retribution.

I still dont understand how these 2 lannister soldiers had the balls to insult a prince. They where even willing to grab their swords and kill him. Even if they did manage to kill him ,imagine the concflicts it would cause.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Ok Oberyn is awesome, somewhat feminist, freeminded character....

He's also treacherous, and nihilistic. You're clearly a fan of him. Ok. I'm not, neither of Greg. The duel decided of their fate. That's poetic justice to me. Oberyn was mad about Clegane for killing Elia and her children, not for the sake of all people, including women and children, Gregor had caused. Oberyn, as a aristocrat, probably considered lowborn as nothing more than manure or servants.

The fact he was not heavily involved in his daughters upbringing somewhat shows he really never cared for.

He is the archetype of the debauched and elitist nobility. He really have no morals, in my opinion, because people like that believe they are not bound by social rules and obey only to their urges.

Your second argument was about his sexuality. It isnt particularly emphasized in the books. He's rumoured to like boys, but its a common way to defame ennemies, true or false.

Confirmed in the show, but as i said, TV Oberyn seems far more pleasant. In the books we are told he was a maester and got bored, and he had his own sellsword company, which shows he is a rather dark character, since sellswords are often bottom feeders or total psycho.

To me, he's just like Cersei, Ramsay, and others, they're cool because they do horrendous things, and justify it with a trauma of sort.

He probably had some redeeming qualities, his family has true devotion to him. But he really had the morality of a louse crab. Who lived by the sword

Ok Oberyn is awesome, somewhat feminist, freeminded character....

He's also treacherous, and nihilistic. You're clearly a fan of him. Ok. I'm not, neither of Greg. The duel decided of their fate. That's poetic justice to me. Oberyn was mad about Clegane for killing Elia and her children, not for the sake of all people, including women and children, Gregor had caused. Oberyn, as a aristocrat, probably considered lowborn as nothing more than manure or servants.

The fact he was not heavily involved in his daughters upbringing somewhat shows he really never cared for.

He is the archetype of the debauched and elitist nobility. He really have no morals, in my opinion, because people like that believe they are not bound by social rules and obey only to their urges.

Your second argument was about his sexuality. It isnt particularly emphasized in the books. He's rumoured to like boys, but its a common way to defame ennemies, true or false.

Confirmed in the show, but as i said, TV Oberyn seems far more pleasant. In the books we are told he was a maester and got bored, and he had his own sellsword company, which shows he is a rather dark character, since sellswords are often bottom feeders or total psycho.

To me, he's just like Cersei, Ramsay, and others, they're cool because they do horrendous things, and justify it with a trauma of sort.

He probably had some redeeming qualities, his family has true devotion to him. But he really had the morality of a louse crab. Who lived by the sword

As Oberyn doesn't have a POV, how could you possibly know what he does or doesn't think about the smallfolk? I have no problem with everyone having their own opinion, but I did notice in your OG post about Oberyn you referred to him as being some kind of killer. Who exactly has he killed???? :dunno:

ETA: He was involved with his children, where are you getting that he wasn't. There are also differences in the sellsword companies, so I'm not sure how much we can say about his service with them and what that says about him. I think, if anything, his varying activities are supposed to show us that he is a bit of a Westerosi version of a Renaissance Man, IMO anyway.

[HexMachina]

As Oberyn doesn't have a POV, how could you possibly know what he does or doesn't think about the smallfolk? I have no problem with everyone having their own opinion, but I did notice in your OG post about Oberyn you referred to him as being some kind of killer. Who exactly has he killed???? :dunno:

He killed Lord Yronwood in the books, after sleeping with Lord Yronwood's paramour and fighting with a poisoned blade

Kasporio, Oberyn joined a sellsword company, hr didnt found one.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

He killed Lord Yronwood in the books, after sleeping with Lord Yronwood's paramour and fighting with a poisoned blade

Kasporio, Oberyn joined a sellsword company, hr didnt found one.

Okay, I just meant that the way the original post was made, and as the poster continues in the Cersei and Ramsey comparison that perhaps there'd be a large body count, LOL

I do remember the Yronwood thing, but it's also rumor and conjecture that it was poison and we don't really know the total why of it anyway. For all we know, Yronwood could have been a terrible and abusive husband and Oberyn did it for the guy's wife. It's easy to say it's an awful thing to do, but we really don't know the story. That's all, and I was thinking that still doesn't make a Cersei or a Ramsey.

[Dildo_Baggins]

Ok Oberyn is awesome, somewhat feminist, freeminded character....

He's also treacherous, and nihilistic. You're clearly a fan of him. Ok. I'm not, neither of Greg. The duel decided of their fate. That's poetic justice to me. Oberyn was mad about Clegane for killing Elia and her children, not for the sake of all people, including women and children, Gregor had caused. Oberyn, as a aristocrat, probably considered lowborn as nothing more than manure or servants.

The fact he was not heavily involved in his daughters upbringing somewhat shows he really never cared for.

He is the archetype of the debauched and elitist nobility. He really have no morals, in my opinion, because people like that believe they are not bound by social rules and obey only to their urges.

Your second argument was about his sexuality. It isnt particularly emphasized in the books. He's rumoured to like boys, but its a common way to defame ennemies, true or false.

Confirmed in the show, but as i said, TV Oberyn seems far more pleasant. In the books we are told he was a maester and got bored, and he had his own sellsword company, which shows he is a rather dark character, since sellswords are often bottom feeders or total psycho.

To me, he's just like Cersei, Ramsay, and others, they're cool because they do horrendous things, and justify it with a trauma of sort.

He probably had some redeeming qualities, his family has true devotion to him. But he really had the morality of a louse crab. Who lived by the sword

I appreciate your civil and elaborate reply. Unlike others

[HexMachina]

Okay, I just meant that the way the original post was made, and as the poster continues in the Cersei and Ramsey comparison that perhaps there'd be a large body count, LOL

I do remember the Yronwood thing, but it's also rumor and conjecture that it was poison and we don't really know the total why of it anyway. For all we know, Yronwood could have been a terrible and abusive husband and Oberyn did it for the guy's wife. It's easy to say it's an awful thing to do, but we really don't know the story. That's all, and I was thinking that still doesn't make a Cersei or a Ramsey.

I didnt read what you quoted properly, my bad :p But no,.I wouldnt lump him in with Ramsay or Gregor at all. He hasnt committed anywhere near the atrocities they have. In fact, save for the Yronwood death...I mean, he even writes to Willas after he injures him :dunno: he acknowledges his bastards and cares for them... meh, i certainly wouldnt say he is as bad as ramsay or gregor

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I didnt read what you quoted properly, my bad :P But no,.I wouldnt lump him in with Ramsay or Gregor at all. He hasnt committed anywhere near the atrocities they have. In fact, save for the Yronwood death...I mean, he even writes to Willas after he injures him :dunno: he acknowledges his bastards and cares for them... meh, i certainly wouldnt say he is as bad as ramsay or gregor

No problem. :cheers:

I think it's really interesting that it seems that Oberyn and Willas continue a friendly relationship in later years. I know some think that means bisexuality, I'm not certain of that myself. Oberyn tells Tyrion that he recently had a letter from Willas and they share many interests. Bisexuality or not, that in itself, shared interests and continued acquaintence, really do make me want to meet the heir to Highgarden before this is allover.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Prince Oberyn Martell is a prince, not merely a knight like Ser Kevan nor a lord like Lord Stannis. Oberyn is a royal by birth. The other two are not. Well, were not.

Kevan is a landed knight, and yes, Stannis styles himself King now, and he was previously the Lord of Dragonstone, which made him the designated heir presumptive until his king had legal issue.

But unless memory deceives me, Stannis was never even then styled the Prince of Dragonstone as had been Prince Rhaegar and so many before him. Why not, I don’t really know.

Indeed

I have no idea why this would have any influence as to why retribution would or would not be carried out though. He was called a goat fucker and his lover was called a whore. Retribution would not seem to be limited to just certain sections of nobility.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Indeed

I have no idea why this would have any influence as to why retribution would or would not be carried out though. He was called a goat fucker and his lover was called a whore. Retribution would not seem to be limited to just certain sections of nobility.

The Dornish are the last people living south of the Wall whom it is still socially acceptable to publicly mock. They're like the Irish, but with darker hair and better looking women.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

The Dornish are the last people living south of the Wall whom it is still socially acceptable to publicly mock. They're like the Irish, but with darker hair and better looking women.

Those who mock the Reeds and dwarves disagree.

As for the last quip, screw you.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Those who mock the Reeds and dwarves disagree.

As for the last quip, screw you.

:cool4:

We Irish have cooler accents...

[Starkfaithful85]

he is going to make all of the non book readers fall in love with the redviper and then he is going to die a glorious death...I can't wait for his fight with the mountain

[VladimirDulud]

He's a smoldering, furious ball of funloving sexiness. Crazy like a fox!

...and he looked mighty pretty with Olyvar. Dammit stupid Lannister chanteuses! I was grouchy when it was clear we wouldn't see how thoroughly Bronn took up Oberyn's party invite.

Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but I liked how Oberyn and Ellaria interacted a lot differently with whores than...everyone else in KL. Even their preferences were more along the lines of "witty" and "spirited" than "look at dat rack!"

I must needs agree. And if I said I thought audiences would have benefited from a continuation of the Oberyn and Olyver scene, I would not be wrong.

[VladimirDulud]

He's definetely becoming a fan fave. My family is in love with him already...I can't wait to see their faces after the duel :devil:

Indeed. Would that the showrunners could take creative freedom and surprise us with different duel results.

[VladimirDulud]

I can't wait for the Mountain to die so they can stop changing the actor playing him. They completely ruined the character after the first season.

The latest actor cast is one of the most massive men I've seen, and seems fitting, though, don't you think?

[VladimirDulud]

Why upon entering the room with the two Lannister soldiers and their brace of conies did Oberyn casually run his right hand through the rather large candle flame?

1. He was showing (off) that he could endure pain unflinchingly.

2. He was demonstrating that the Dornish are accustomed to great heat.

He was proving that the Blood of the Dragon runs strongly in him, conferring greater resistance to heat than which in other mortals obtains.

He wanted the flame to kindle his own long-smoldering rage at House Lannister.

He wanted to dry off his sweaty palm so he could draw quickly at need, where said sweat came of manhandling Olyvar, namesake of the Prince’s own dead brother.

Pick more than one of the above. :)

Regarding any prospects of a hot pillow-biting scene between Oberyn and Loras, there was an interview with Finn Jones in which when asked if he’d get any more hot sex scenes this season, he lamented that there was not, but that there was a bit of risqué flirtation along those lines.

And truly, what better place to insert Loras’s forlorn lament than at said flirtation? I’m speaking of the line that in the books Loras delivered to Tyrion, but which could here be used to rebuff the (already buff enough) Prince:

“When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.”

You've got a fantastic sense of humour. Eggsellent.

[VladimirDulud]

Nothing was mentioned about Martell/Tyrell issues, and I wonder if it will be included. Obviously, we know the issue was worsened by the Oberyn/Willas maiming incident (even though the two of them are on good terms, the families ain't), but being as it does go back to the times of Dorne coming into the kingdoms, and Tyrells put as lords over them, I wonder if they will finally try and introduce it somehow. And this IS the billionth reason that I hate the fact they have cut out Willas, not to mention Garland. Ughhhhhhhhh and Ahhhhhhhhhh (yeah, I do that alot, it gets rid of negative buildup, LOL)

ETA: And, yeah, duh, of course the issues go back even beyond the Seven Kingdoms under the Targs, they were always awarring with each other, not too neighborly, LOL

is there really no hope of seeing either Willas or Garland at all in the series? Mayhaps the present Tyrells are considered sufficient plotwise, but I'd love to see a Tyrell expansion on the series - and a look at Highgarden. The fan art produced is inspiring.

[TheSpottedCat]

It was a great introductory scene that set up the background for the character really nicely, imo. But they missed my favourite part. That's when Oberyn tells Tyrion that he and Elia were as close as Jaime and Cersei and Tyrion thinks to himself "Gods, I hope not!". I know, it wouldn't have worked like that on screen but they could have Tyrion crack a little smile or get a disturbed look on his face when Oberyn tells him that. I do so hope this little scene will pop up at some point.