[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Nictarion]

But seriously...what was with that infidel line...

I don't much like Stannis even in the books (I should die, I know) but they really made him sound like a fanatic here.

I thought is pretty obvious it was just something he was saying in public, and doesn't beieive personally. His line at the dinner table about suffering much he doesnt agree with was tied into that.

[pantouflas]

But seriously...what was with that infidel line...

I don't much like Stannis even in the books (I should die, I know) but they really made him sound like a fanatic here.

I thought it was clear from his facial expression that he was disgusted by the whole thing.. I interpreted it as "Melissandre said he was an 'infidel'".

It also played into the 'look, everyone playing the game is cruel, maybe Joffrey isn't the worst' sub-theme of the episode. And GRRM did say last week that he wanted readers to be a bit ambivalent about Joffrey's death... D&D chose to do it that way I guess.

Edited April 15, 2014 by pantouflas

[kaanchanoone]

I thought is pretty obvious it was just something he was saying in public, and doesn't beieive personally. His line at the dinner table about suffering much he doesnt agree with was tied into that.

Hmmm true. But there really wasn't any need to pretend to be OK with the burnings or anything...he was talking to Davos. No need for propriety there.

[kaanchanoone]

I thought it was clear from his facial expression that he was disgusted by the whole thing.. I interpreted it as "Melissandre said he was an 'infidel'".

It also played into the 'look, everyone playing the game is cruel, maybe Joffrey isn't the worst' sub-theme of the episode. And GRRM did say last week that he wanted readers to be a bit ambivalent about Joffrey's death... D&D chose to do it that way I guess.

I dunno...maybe he should have ground his teeth more. Hahaha.

I have to say though...Joffrey's death was really quite sad. I mean everyone hates him and he kind of deserved it. But he looks so scared and helpless and...young when he dies. I didn't imagine it quite like that in the books...they did a really good job at making him look...pitiful.

[Spotted Cat]

i just wish that Robert had no bastards and the only royal blood Mel can find was Shireen Baratheon . would she try to burn shireen too? and more importantly would stannis the "JUST" let her?

Edited April 15, 2014 by Spotted Cat

[MarieAntoinette]

So, um, Tywin totally covers Tommen's eyes while his brother convulses. My heart might have cracked a little bit.

I totally missed that! I like that they added this small scene.

[Spotted Cat]

I dunno...maybe he should have ground his teeth more. Hahaha.

I have to say though...Joffrey's death was really quite sad. I mean everyone hates him and he kind of deserved it. But he looks so scared and helpless and...young when he dies. I didn't imagine it quite like that in the books...they did a really good job at making him look...pitiful.

yep man

i really felt for cersei. power hungry idiot she is, she is still a mother.

[Spotted Cat]

So, um, Tywin totally covers Tommen's eyes while his brother convulses. My heart might have cracked a little bit.

Missd that

he looks so fatherly here. DAMN

[kaanchanoone]

So, um, Tywin totally covers Tommen's eyes while his brother convulses. My heart might have cracked a little bit.

Wow. I missed this too. Tywin really does care about his family doesn't he?

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing Tommen and Cersei.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Random, but did anyone else miss Garlan Tyrell? I honestly don't know how Tyrion could have made it through that entire wedding without Good Guy Garlan being extra nice to him to counterbalance all the shit Joff was throwing his way

(And bummer, I would have loved to see the "Garlan put the poison in the cup" theory confirmed in the show)

[pantouflas]

I dunno...maybe he should have ground his teeth more. Hahaha.

I have to say though...Joffrey's death was really quite sad. I mean everyone hates him and he kind of deserved it. But he looks so scared and helpless and...young when he dies. I didn't imagine it quite like that in the books...they did a really good job at making him look...pitiful.

Yep, that was the idea. GRRM: "Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. [...] I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. I didnt want it to be entirely, Hey-ho, the witch is dead. I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering." http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/

[pantouflas]

Reading the EW articles, I came across this:

Charlies Dance (Tywin Lannister) on how Joffreys death impacts Tywins plans: Well, it hasnt come a moment too soon, really. It does help Tywin, because Ive sorted out who I want to marry who. Its all about maintaining the status quo really making sure the Lannisters stay up there. Whether its getting help from the Dornish or the Tyrells, the most prominent house in the seven kingdoms is the house of Lannister, so I have to do whatever it takes to make sure that that situation stays. And way over in the east theres these continuous rumors about this Targaryan girl with her dragons that Im trying not to think about lets cross that bridge when we come to it. But now that weve got Joffrey out of the way, the young man that I want to put on the throne I can put on the throne the death of Joffrey is fortuitous because he was kind of like a little mosquito anyway annoying, that youre swatting all the time.

Who thinks he was in from the beginning? (I don't remember any hints in the books, but this doesn't mean he wasn't)

Edited April 15, 2014 by pantouflas

[kaanchanoone]

Yep, that was the idea. GRRM: "Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. [...] I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. I didnt want it to be entirely, Hey-ho, the witch is dead. I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering." http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/

Oh wow. It becomes more and more difficult to blindly hate any character. I started out despising Cersei. Until her POV chapters.

Thats one reason why I love these books so much. You get an insight into the heart of every character. Even Ramsay Snow.

The only exception seems to be Gregor Clegane. He is a brute. And no one can explain why.

[Koi No Yokan]

So I finally got around to re-watching this episode, and damn - I honestly feel like Joffrey's death is the single most uncomfortable moment on the show for me thus far. Just like in the books, it's this odd mixture of "Yes, it's finally happening!" and horror of a boy choking to death in the arms of his mother, while she watches him die in fear and agony.

It's strange. I know the big story for everyone is that Joffrey is dead, and everyone's celebrating about his long overdue comeuppance; but just like in the books, it never truly felt like a victory for me. So credit (again) to GRRM, Jack Gleeson, Lena Headey, and the rest of the cast & crew who crafted that scene.

Joffrey's death is horrifying, and makes me squirm just as much as a certain child's death in The Wire. You know a book/show is good when you actually feel sorry for one of the biggest monsters in the story.

[Nictarion]

Random, but did anyone else miss Garlan Tyrell? I honestly don't know how Tyrion could have made it through that entire wedding without Good Guy Garlan being extra nice to him to counterbalance all the shit Joff was throwing his way

(And bummer, I would have loved to see the "Garlan put the poison in the cup" theory confirmed in the show)

Loras has been established as Mace's only son on the show.

Edit: Nvm, i read your post wrong.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nictarion

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Yep, that was the idea. GRRM: "Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. [...] I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. I didnt want it to be entirely, Hey-ho, the witch is dead. I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering." http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/

There wasn't the slightest bit of complexity to my emotion. I wish he had suffered much more than he did. He was an evil bastard who tortured and killed innocent people - why you feel anything other than unbridled joy over his death?

Edited April 15, 2014 by iknownothingjonsnow

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Random, but did anyone else miss Garlan Tyrell? I honestly don't know how Tyrion could have made it through that entire wedding without Good Guy Garlan being extra nice to him to counterbalance all the shit Joff was throwing his way

(And bummer, I would have loved to see the "Garlan put the poison in the cup" theory confirmed in the show)

Well, he had Sansa. She didn't say much but she said everything with only her murder stare. Also, we don't see that in books but we do see here that people was pretty much horrified by Joffrey's behaviour towards his uncle.

Anyway, I just rewatched the Stannis, CrazyDee and CrazyDum scene again and

1. Some bits of Stannis deadpan humour:

"Meat's off"

"There is nothing else"

"Serve fish, we're on an island" (#1)

"You hate fish"

"I hate many others things (like you) but here we are" (#2)

2. Selyse sounded like she's jealous of Shireen.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Loras has been established as Mace's only son on the show.

Yeah, I know...and it sucks :frown5:

[Colonel Green]

Who thinks he was in from the beginning? (I don't remember any hints in the books, but this doesn't mean he wasn't)

Yes, it does mean he wasn't, because that makes no sense, and it wouldn't have any meaning at this point in the story anyway.

There wasn't the slightest bit of complexity to my emotion. I wish he had suffered much more than he did. He was an evil bastard who tortured and killed innocent people - why you feel anything other than unbridled joy over his death?

Yeah, I'm the same. If GRRM wanted people to really think about "this is a child dying!" or whatever (even though, in the show, he's like 17-18 at this point), he really needed to actually write Joffrey as a human being at some point, rather than a cartoonish, one-dimensional sociopath. Joffrey's perfectly suited to the role of horrible villain, but he's about as much of complicated statement on the human condition as Ramsay Snow.

[Olvyr]

...Then Olenna plants a necklace on Sansa via Dontos (with no one noticing) and when events transpire, Dontos (apparently stone sober) shows up to save Sansa.

Need to recheck this, but in S04E01, the scene where the QoT throws a neclace into the bushes (dismissing it as not nice enough) couldn't that have been her way of leaving it there for Dontos to retrieve it. That way noone could have seen Qot/Donto/Sansa together with the necklace...