Does anyone feel that the Targaryens don't belong in Westeros?

[The Wolves]

Where all those Targaryen loyalists then? Even during the Rebellion, everyone either jumped on the Rebels' bandwagon as the time went on or helped Targs as little as was possible. Even before the war half of Westeros was already plotting their downfall.

Don't bring the smallfolk into it. Common people are completly insignificant and unimportant in Martin's world.

You bought the smallfolk into it when you said EVERYONE in Westeros hated the Targaryns.

There is no evidence that "half of Westeros" was plotting the Targaryen's downfall. The Targaryens have been gone for almost two decades and very little bad things are said about them and the things said bad about them are from a fat drunken loser whose hatred is irrational.

[FC_Lymond]

True, but that was more based on the fact that they smashed his baby nephew's head againt a wall and raped and killed his sister. He would have fought with anyone who had given him a chance to kill Lannisters.

No

Lewyn Martell was a part of the KG the whole time. The Martells were definitely backing the IT.

....

I think that for many families of Westeros, Robert's Rebellion wasn't about whether the Targs should rule. If Aerys fell, they expected Rhaegar or another Targ to be named the next king.

[Rill Redthorn]

No

Lewyn Martell was a part of the KG the whole time. The Martells were definitely backing the IT.

....

I think that for many families of Westeros, Robert's Rebellion wasn't about whether the Targs should rule. If Aerys fell, they expected Rhaegar or another Targ to be named the next king.

I agree the Martells were backing the Targs -- they had a lot of privileges under the Targs that the other Lords Paramount didn't have, and blood connections -- but I think you could leave Lewyn out of it. Kingsguard are supposed to forswear loyalty to their houses when they join the KG, which is yet another reason Jaime has shit for honor, because a lot of people think he killed Aerys to make his father happy and put the Lannisters on the throne. Come to think of it, even if that wasn't Jaime's intent that was the practical upshot of it anyway, wasn't it? Tommen's a Lannister through and through.

Remember the Kingsguard used to be the shining example of the best knighthood had to offer. It's only since Robert that it's become the mockery that it is now. (Kind of parallel to what happened to the Night's Watch, although the Kingsguard went to pot much more quickly than the NW did.)

[Jasta11]

Only the Andals ENFORCED their religion on the native population with fire and sword, the Targs ADOPTED it. I still don't see what makes them so damn evil.

The Targaryen did have to put down a massive Faith rebellion and disrespected a few of their beliefs (regarding polygamy and incest, mainly) for almost their entire reign. It's not as bad as the Andals driving the First Men out, but still, they didn't fully adapt.

My personal beef with the Targayen is the general magic-ness of them. In a series that has ''power resides where men believe it resides'' and intricate feudal intrigues and power games, Martin also introduces white hair-purple eyed peoples who are naturally adept with the supernatural in some way, had technology and weapons superior to everyone else and can command friggin dragons and walk in pyres because lolmagic. So it's less with the Targaryen in particular than the Valyrian in general that I just find out of place in the setting. Of course I guess it doesn't help that the only Targaryen/Valyrian we see is Dany, who I don't like.

[Rill Redthorn]

The Targaryen did have to put down a massive Faith rebellion and disrespected a few of their beliefs (regarding polygamy and incest, mainly) for almost their entire reign. It's not as bad as the Andals driving the First Men out, but still, they didn't fully adapt.

My personal beef with the Targayen is the general magic-ness of them. In a series that has ''power resides where men believe it resides'' and intricate feudal intrigues and power games, Martin also introduces white hair-purple eyed peoples who are naturally adept with the supernatural in some way, had technology and weapons superior to everyone else and can command friggin dragons and walk in pyres because lolmagic. So it's less with the Targaryen in particular than the Valyrian in general that I just find out of place in the setting. Of course I guess it doesn't help that the only Targaryen/Valyrian we see is Dany, who I don't like.

I think the "magic Targaryens" belong to the more epic side of the ASOIAF story. ASOIAF sort of has two different fantasy traditions going at once (at the moment at least; no telling what GRRM will do with it by the end.) One tradition is more historical with all the politics and scheming and power struggles that went along with a medieval monarchy and feudal system. The actual "Game of Thrones" belongs in this tradition. There's essentially no direct magic involved in the struggle for the Iron Throne except for Melisandre's Shadow Assassination of Renly in ACOK. I have to admit, I always found the Shadow Assassin plot twist to be completely contrived and out of place in ACOK anyway. It was a really cheap way to get rid of Renly, honestly.

The other tradition is the "epic fantasy" tradition where the conflict is not on the level of men, but more on the level of (un)natural forces -- Ice v. Fire, The Great Other v. Red R'hllor, and so on. Dany and Jon and Bran and Melisandre all belong to this part of the story, though of course they are linked to the political part thanks to family entanglements. But I don't believe that Dany's dragons are going to be used to settle the rulership of the Iron Throne and I don't think Bran's warging is going to be involved in resolving those plotlines either; all that stuff is going to come down to the people, not the magic. The magic will be primarily used to deal with the larger conflict.

Hm, maybe the Shadow Baby could be viewed as a way of GRRM commenting that the dynastic struggle for the Iron Throne is a rather small affair as far as the huge natural forces battling for Westeros as concerned. I don't actually think the Great Other or R'hllor give a squat who squats on the pointy chair.

[Dragon Seed]

It's mans nature to conquer, to be on top, #1. The Targs did the same thing to Westeros that all governments in our world do, they conquer, control, grab land and rule. Throughout our history its been done by all governments on all continents. The American's conquered the Native Americans, The Russians did the same in their region as did the Germans, Australians, English, French etc. etc. It still goes on today but in a more sophisticated way. The targs belong for as long as they can hold power and the same goes for the next group that takes over from them.

Also don't forget that Westeros was inhabited and ruled by the children of the forest until the Andals nearly wiped them out.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Maybe if they stopped proclaiming themselves the blood of old valyria as if it was special and above all others then people wouldnt consider them so foreign. At least the blood of the first men boasting is the blood of the first humans in westeros (and probably the COTF in some cases )

[Kiporman]

Maybe if they stopped proclaiming themselves the blood of old valyria as if it was special and above all others then people wouldnt consider them so foreign. At least the blood of the first men boasting is the blood of the first humans in westeros (and probably the COTF in some cases )

Exactly.

The Targaryens are said many times to be "more Gods than men". That is way too arrogant. Even the motherfuckin' Lannisters don't go so far; Jaime even thinks, when it is said that Tywin's body will leave the town by the Gate of Gods, that he never claimed to be a God.

Besides, the Targaryen didn't adapt. They simply didn't. They claim to follow the Seven, yet they pratice the sin of incest pretty easily and claim that they are a exception to the rule. The marriage by the seven is for one man and one woman, yet Aegon married both his sisters. Which also proves another point; they don't stick by the rules, they bend them to they will. One big example is the first night; even after Jaehaerys banned the First Night, Targaryens kept doing so in Dragonstone. One may say "the smallfolk wanted it!", but I say "bullshit!". If the smallfolk wants elective monarchy, then they will change the sucession system? I don't think so.

And besides... for ones who say that they are close to Gods than men, they seem to die pretty quickly under the weight of a warhammer or the heat of melted gold.

[Jasta11]

I think the "magic Targaryens" belong to the more epic side of the ASOIAF story. ASOIAF sort of has two different fantasy traditions going at once (at the moment at least; no telling what GRRM will do with it by the end.) One tradition is more historical with all the politics and scheming and power struggles that went along with a medieval monarchy and feudal system. The actual "Game of Thrones" belongs in this tradition. There's essentially no direct magic involved in the struggle for the Iron Throne except for Melisandre's Shadow Assassination of Renly in ACOK. I have to admit, I always found the Shadow Assassin plot twist to be completely contrived and out of place in ACOK anyway. It was a really cheap way to get rid of Renly, honestly.

The other tradition is the "epic fantasy" tradition where the conflict is not on the level of men, but more on the level of (un)natural forces -- Ice v. Fire, The Great Other v. Red R'hllor, and so on. Dany and Jon and Bran and Melisandre all belong to this part of the story, though of course they are linked to the political part thanks to family entanglements. But I don't believe that Dany's dragons are going to be used to settle the rulership of the Iron Throne and I don't think Bran's warging is going to be involved in resolving those plotlines either; all that stuff is going to come down to the people, not the magic. The magic will be primarily used to deal with the larger conflict.

Hm, maybe the Shadow Baby could be viewed as a way of GRRM commenting that the dynastic struggle for the Iron Throne is a rather small affair as far as the huge natural forces battling for Westeros as concerned. I don't actually think the Great Other or R'hllor give a squat who squats on the pointy chair.

True, ASOIAF has a lot of magic, but most of it is ill-defined, unknowable. The Old Gods and their mysterious ways (which I enjoy a lot). The Red Priests and their freaky rituals. People like Melissandre and Mirri Mazz Durr (or something) and their powers of shadow. The Warlocks. Or really wacky stuff like Patchface's prophecies, the Faceless Men or seemingly magical diseases like the Greyscale.

Then enter the self-proclaimed ubermensch who make super-swords and can naturally command friggin dragons and walk in pyres like it was a sunday stroll if the author needs them to. I don't know, I think that even for the setting the Targaryen's magical nature is too in-your-face. The Starks also seem to have magical blood, but it's much more subtle and limits itself to mainly having cool pets they can control, only Bran really managed to turn it into full-blown sorcery and even then it's still interesting. ''I'm gonna walk into a pyre and come out with sentient attack choppers because the plot says so'' is, to me, not as interesting. It just seems too easy.

Of course, the above is 100% subjective. But of all the magical mumbo-jumbo in the series, the Valyrians and their dragons are the least interesting to me.

[Ilúvatar]

If the Targaryens don't belong in Westeros, then neither do the First Men.

The children of the forest and the Others have a greater claim to the continent.

[The Wolves]

Maybe if they stopped proclaiming themselves the blood of old valyria as if it was special and above all others then people wouldnt consider them so foreign. At least the blood of the first men boasting is the blood of the first humans in westeros (and probably the COTF in some cases )

Who considers them foreign? Nobody considers them foreign in Westeros except people on this board.

And they had dragons(who the world considers the greatest animal/weapon)being the blood of Old Valyria actually does make them special.

[Zebra of KotOR]

No I have never felt the Targaryens don't belong in Westeros and I don't understand how anyone can feel that way.

[The Black Wolf]

I think a problem with much of the history of Westeros is GRRM's use of extremely long periods of time when describing it, this also impacts the perception of the Targaryen dynasty. For instance: the First Men came to Westeros 12 000 years ago? 12 000 years ago we were making cave paintings and managed to domesticate goats... And the Targaryens ruled for over 300 years. 300 years ago was 1714... That is a looong time ago. For perspective, that's around the time when the Bourbons (French house) started being kings of Spain. The royal family in Spain are still Bourbons, and they are considered thoroughly Spanish. Hell, the house of Bernadotte (also French) has been the Swedish royal family only since the 1800s, and they are not seen as outsiders these days.

However, many Westerosi clearly still think of the Targaryens as foreigners, not as people of Westeros. But it's been over 300 years!? When reading ASoIaF I get the feeling that the Targaryens don't belong in there, like they invaded the place perhaps just 100 years ago. Still, this might have to do with how they conquered the Seven Kingdoms, and their frankly disturbing propensity for marrying close family members. I don't know, it's an interesting subject...

[Ziggy Targdust]

I never got the idea that in-universe Targs are seen as foreign. Targ influence is so deeply entrenched in Westeros it shows up nearly in everything from the money to the kingsroad.

Even north of the Wall, if Brans mentor is who we think he is.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Ok first off this is has been some of the most hilarious reading that I've read in some time.

however if I may I would like to give several examples of madness that have afflicted ruling houses and because of their constant interbreeding and cross marriages introduced madness in to other houses.

Isabella of spain's mother was her father's second wife from the ruling house of Portugal, she suffered probably from bipolar disorder she ended her long life a virtual prisoner in a Spanish convent, she refused to bathe, comb her hair.... get the point. The madness skipped her daughter but would later afflict her granddaughter whom spent the next 40+ years pinning for her dead husband. She also ended her days a mad woman and a prisoner on her son's orders as she was the actual queen of Spain. This granddaughter even has a memorable moniker Loco Juana(Juana the Mad)

Charles VI of France (the beloved and in the same breath the mad)suffered from glass disorder (which was probably brought about because of Porphyria)which caused the suffer to think that they were think they are literally made of glass and will do anything to protect themselves from shattering. This same king also at times failed to recognize his family and would do bodily harm to himself and those around him. His daughter Katherine Valois married the hot tempered and fiery personality Henry V, whom was descendent from the Plangent whom may not have been mad but when pissed it was your life to be on hand. They were not to be fucked with when mad which comes from their relations to William the Conquer who didn't play when he was pissed either. Now back to Henry V so he marries Katherine they have a son, whom more than likely suffered from Porphyria which if left untreated can cause madness. Know how many other royals of the English were afflicted with this particularly lovely little disease? Mary Queen of Scot more than likely, her son James I of England, Charles I of England and lastly anyone remember the Mad King George III who lost the America?

Then how about lets look at the house of Bathroy, any one heard of the blood countess? Elizabeth was more than likely a sociopath, sadist and in general a nasty human being. Did you know that through her cruelties she left her region of Hungarian deplete of noble females. She wiped out an entire generation!!! She's also related to Vlad the Impaler Dracula (the dragon) whom when provoked impaled his victims on spikes driven if I'm not mistaken though the ass. They were either second or third cousins. This same cousin was later turned into the bases for the Bram Strokers Dracula is that a lovely and nice pleasant legacy. The blood countess would bathe in virgin blood to keep her skin fair and young. Let see one of her favorite ways of torture was to place oiled wax paper between someone's toes and lite the paper on fire to watch them dance. She married her first cousin and while he also was off his rocker even he found some of his wife's extra circular activities distasteful.

The Romanovs are no better, Ivan the Terrible anyone more than likely suffered from depression and other mental disorders.

So the point of the lesson kids is that every ruling house as had it's fair share of madness and that the Targs are no different it's just that their incest was a lot more closely tied and it was compacted because there was very rarely an infusion of fresh blood to thin the bad blood.

As for the Targs being a bad thing for the realm I'm kind of on the fence I see both part of the equation.

[unSonofStannis]

But the Targaryens didn't exploit the people of Westeros, and they certainly did not destroy their culture. Hell, they themselves adopted the dominant religion, and switched from Valyrian to the Common Tongue. They inter-married with the locals and the lords, and kept the same system of rule that they had before (feudal monarchy). The Targaryen concquest is in no way "colonialism". Even then, they let the (surviving) Houses continue to rule the lands they ruled before, only they call them Lords Paramount instead of kings now.

They rarely "intermarried" with the existing houses, they mostly married each other and kept it in the family. It was only until recently that they married a Baratheon and Martell.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

Where does any characters besides Robert Baratheon express hatred of the Targaryens? When does the smallfolk express their hatred of the Targaryens(they love Aerys at the beginning of his reign and Rhaegar was also popular among the smallfolk). When did their allies such as Dorne and The Reach express hatred of them or the Iron Islands, the North, The Riverlands, The Arryns?

You're making things up because no one in Westeros hated the Targaryens except Robert Baratheon

You bought the smallfolk into it when you said EVERYONE in Westeros hated the Targaryns.

There is no evidence that "half of Westeros" was plotting the Targaryen's downfall. The Targaryens have been gone for almost two decades and very little bad things are said about them and the things said bad about them are from a fat drunken loser whose hatred is irrational.

You aren't really arguing anything. The fact is the Targaryns were not seen as a legitimate family to rule over Westeros. The amount of force brought against them along with the wide acceptance of their extermination is a testament to that.

[The Wolves]

You aren't really arguing anything. The fact is the Targaryns were not seen as a legitimate family to rule over Westeros. The amount of force brought against them along with the wide acceptance of their extermination is a testament to that.

There is no evidence to suggest that the "Targaryens were not seen as a legitimate family to rule over Westeros" seriously where do you get that idea?

You do know that for about 3 centuries they ruled Westeros and Westeros recognized them as their kings and queens and princes. The nobles and smallfolk bowed to them, their laws were obeyed, their money were styled after the kings, which were dragons. Westeros' history still talks about the Dragon Kings. The current dynasty and small counsel is styled after the Targaryens.

So no Westeros DOES see the Targaryens as a legitimate family that ruled over Westeros if they didn't than why would people do what I mentioned above?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I never got the idea that in-universe Targs are seen as foreign. Targ influence is so deeply entrenched in Westeros it shows up nearly in everything from the money to the kingsroad.

Even north of the Wall, if Brans mentor is who we think he is.

Was the Kingsroad there before the Targs in all but name though? It goes from Storm's End to the Wall. Thats a weird start/end. Think of it like the Romans, how many Britons consider the Romans British? They came here, probably intermarried a bit or the legions got their rape on. But Brits consider the Romans who built the roads and set so many foundations to be foreign. We're still Celts, we're still anglo-saxonss and vikings up north but no one really says they are 'roman' or 'norman' for that matter but in the later case that is just the rich anyway.

They rarely "intermarried" with the existing houses, they mostly married each other and kept it in the family. It was only until recently that they married a Baratheon and Martell.

Funny how the Targs never worked out that the Durrendon blood is so dominant. If you want blood purity, you stay away from Storm's End.

[Chatty Duelist]

Funny how the Targs never worked out that the Durrendon blood is so dominant. If you want blood purity, you stay away from Storm's End.

Everyone should have black hair and blue eyes according to GRRM.