Jon Snow claim to the throne

[Mithras]

The Targaryen claim to the throne ended with Robert's Rebellion. They can take the throne back by conquest if it comes to that, but no longer have a built in claim. The seven kingdoms swore fealty to Robert Baratheon. The only person with a claim at this point is Stannis (the readers knowing Cersei's children don't have a drop of Baratheon blood). I don't see how R+L=J serves any purpose but helps Jon find himself. I can't see him running around calling himself 'Blood of the Dragon'.

The Targaryen claim did not end. Viserys and Dany were disinherited. Since there was no KNOWN Targs left except these two, the throne passed to the next person in the Targaryen succession line. That was Robert as he was the direct descendant of Rhaelle Targaryen. The name of the ruling House changed but the bloodline is still there.

I think after the legitimate "Baratheons" are completely finished (when Cersei's remaining kids die - note that Stannis is already disinherited), Cersei will claim the IT in her own name as the closest legitimate descendant of a Targaryen ancestor (I have a theory that it is Eleana Targaryen).

Of course the rightful claim on the IT will technically be Jon’s as he is the heir of the main line but I think this will not be the reason why people will choose him. Jon will be the king not just because it is his right nor it is his duty. The main reason is he will be the savior of humanity, a person who did not participate in the Game of Thrones, rather he tried to fight the common enemy all throughout the series.

[butterbumps!]

Taking the Iron Throne may not even be done out of a desire to rule. I have a strong feeling one of the Ironborn will sit the throne at some stage. It's perfectly plausible that Jon would use his new found status as a Targaryen as well as the backing of Sansa (assuming LF elevates her to a position of power in the North and the Vale) to try and overthrow the people who had a hand in the ruin of House Stark.

Jon doesn't need to invoke any Targ lineage to work with Sansa to win followers and destroy Stark enemies-- not too long before the Bowen incident, he was considering an appeal to the Eyrie to feed the North, which would undoubtedly win them over. Queen Bread and Jon (who believes Sansa should get Winterfell, incidentally) have a lot to work with should they team up, and none of it requires being a Targ.

[Trigger Warning]

He has a claim to the targ Iron Throne.

Right now it's the Baratheon Iron Throne.

So one of the Targs will have to take it for his claim to have any relevance.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well yes, except:

The Targaryen Iron Throne and the Baratheon Iron Throne are not two things. RR was not a war of conquest it was a civil war. Robert claimed it through his Targaryen heritage.

We are not sure about this. I mean that Robert claimed the throne, as far as we know the others gave him he Throne.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Best he can do is Winterfell if he gets out of his oath. (and still lives).

[Trigger Warning]

He used his Targeryen lineage as a little sweetener.

But really the throne belongs to the Baratheon dynasty, no Targaryen could lawfully claim it in accordance with the current dynasty.

Of course nobles could support Jon and put him on the throne as the Targaryen heir but that would be right of conquest and not really inheritance.

[Northbound2.0]

Best he can do is Winterfell if he gets out of his oath. (and still lives).

Truly? That was a pretty general/blanket remark. Perhaps you can shed some light, on how you came to this gem of a conclusion? I guess him being named Robb's heir and given a Stark name, with most likely the title of KitN, means nothing? Or the thousands of people who are willing to follow him at this point in time? Hell, I wont go in to his bloodlines, becuase I really doubt it's going to matter in the end.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Best he can do is Winterfell if he gets out of his oath. (and still lives).

Yes. Even though I'd take Sansa or Rickon over him. Bran and Arya should never rule anything.

[Mithras]

OK I had to ask this questions somewhere.

1. Do you think, that Jon want to be king?

2. Isn't he still a man of the Night's Watch and a bastard?

3. Why would the people of Westeros believe him?

4. Do you really think, that Jon's story has been leading up to him becoming a king?

5. Do you think that there's enough time in WoW and DoS for Jon's Conquest?

1. Jon will only put forward his claim to unite the remaining manpower left in the Realm post-Dance 2.0 against the common enemy.

2. He is not a bastard. He will accept his heritage but that does not mean he will come south to claim the throne. He will continue leading the people and preparing them for the Long Night where he left. The NW and the Wall will be no more.

A very neat foreshadowing for the end of the NW:

“By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace.”

Meaning that the NW (and the Wall) will be practically destroyed and the people will have to fight for their own lives, not rely on the crows to do the dirty job.

3. In addition to every other minor evidences like Rhaegar’s harp being in Lyanna’s tomb, and the declaration of first hand witnesses like Howland Reed, he will ride a dragon (possibly Drogon but Sheepstealer is also a possibility) and Dany will bend the knee to him.

4. Jon being the king is one of the most foreshadowed elements of the story. There have been two threads named as A King in Hiding, full of clues and evidences for this.

5. Jon will not conquer. While he was fighting the Others, people will be already his subjects. He will take his seat after the Dawn comes.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well it's not stated, but why else would Robert have a better claim if not through his Targaryen blood?

I mean that it wasn't he who claimed the Throne the others gave him the Throne because of his blood.

[Northbound2.0]

A very neat foreshadowing for the end of the NW:

“By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace.”

4. Jon being the king is one of the most foreshadowed elements of the story. There have been two threads named as A King in Hiding, full of clues and evidences for this.

Listen Waver! Individuals, such as you and Bumps; really need to stop with all the logical comments. :cool4:

[butterbumps!]

1. Jon will only put forward his claim to unite the remaining manpower left in the Realm post-Dance 2.0 against the common enemy.

2. He is not a bastard. He will accept his heritage but that does not mean he will come south to claim the throne. He will continue leading the people and preparing them for the Long Night where he left. The NW and the Wall will be no more.

A very neat foreshadowing for the end of the NW:

“By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace.”

Meaning that the NW (and the Wall) will be practically destroyed and the people will have to fight for their own lives, not rely on the crows to do the dirty job.

3. In addition to every other minor evidences like Rhaegar’s harp being in Lyanna’s tomb, and the declaration of first hand witnesses like Howland Reed, he will ride a dragon (possibly Drogon but Sheepstealer is also a possibility) and Dany will bend the knee to him.

4. Jon being the king is one of the most foreshadowed elements of the story. There have been two threads named as A King in Hiding, full of clues and evidences for this.

5. Jon will not conquer. While he was fighting the Others, people will be already his subjects. He will take his seat after the Dawn comes.

This is all speculation, and some of it-- like the idea that Jon would actually embrace a Targ identity, goes directly counter to all of his personal development and character progression.

On the bolded: what will happen to the dragons as "paternity tools" in the event that the Ironborn or some other clearly non-Targ character mounts one? And there's a vault of paternity proofs in the crypts that will proclaim to the rest of the Westerosi that Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and they will bow to him for this?

Why do you think the Westerosi will give even half a shit about having a trueborn Targ sit the throne? And even if they did, why would Rhaegar's harp in the crypt trump Dany and flaming dragons or Aegon, who was known to be legit and looks the part? For the same reasons everyone just knew Joffrey wasn't Robert's true son and bowed to Stannis resultantly?

ETA: I do agree with the black cloaks part as potential foreshadowing of the Watch's becoming everything and nothing.

[Guard of the Rainking]

1. Jon will only put forward his claim to unite the remaining manpower left in the Realm post-Dance 2.0 against the common enemy.

2. He is not a bastard. He will accept his heritage but that does not mean he will come south to claim the throne. He will continue leading the people and preparing them for the Long Night where he left. The NW and the Wall will be no more.

A very neat foreshadowing for the end of the NW:

“By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace.”

Meaning that the NW (and the Wall) will be practically destroyed and the people will have to fight for their own lives, not rely on the crows to do the dirty job.

3. In addition to every other minor evidences like Rhaegar’s harp being in Lyanna’s tomb, and the declaration of first hand witnesses like Howland Reed, he will ride a dragon (possibly Drogon but Sheepstealer is also a possibility) and Dany will bend the knee to him.

4. Jon being the king is one of the most foreshadowed elements of the story. There have been two threads named as A King in Hiding, full of clues and evidences for this.

5. Jon will not conquer. While he was fighting the Others, people will be already his subjects. He will take his seat after the Dawn comes.

Sounds like a fairy tale.

[Light a wight tonight]

He died. He doesn't belong to the Watch anymore

As they say: "His watch is over."

[Northbound2.0]

Sounds like a fairy tale.

What exactly do you think this story is, a true crime drama? This is Martin's fairy tale and the fact remains, there has been a crap ton of foreshadowing, since the first book; regarding Jon either being a king/heir in hiding or a King in the end. Hell, I'll even give you the first one that I can recall from aGoT. It was in Winterfell, the night of the feast when Robert came. Jon, was out in the yard pissed off and Tyrion came and spoke with him. As their conversation ended, Tyrion had a thought in his mind, when he noticed both their SHADOWS on a building wall/ground.

Tyrion's inner thoughts "At this moment, Tyrion was as tall as a King" I'm paraphrasing the line, someone feel free to correct me.

[Audrey Arryn]

If Jon were to become king, it would not be because he's Rhaegar's son, and he'd do so as Jon Snow. There's no such thing as "the true heir" in this story, and given Jon's personal development, his claiming a Targ identity doesn't follow (not to mention, after Aegon's shown up as Rhaegar's son, no one will believe that Jon is yet another long lost son and a legitimate one at that). I wrote this out in another recent thread, but I think it applies here as well:

I don't think R+L will play out in a literal Return of the King scenario (and further, I think Jon and Aegon are completely deconstructing that expectation when looked at adjacently). One supreme difference between ASOIAF and LotR is that ASOIAF's world is indeed changing-- ASOIAF is a social critique through a deconstruction and remapping of power. Meaning, there's no "true heir" and the whole construct of "rightfulness" via bloodline has been completely shattered. Aragorn could return as the long lost king because the social structure of Middle Earth was never challenged; conversely, ASOIAF is undergoing a major social crisis and dissolution of the status quo.

I've grown increasingly favorable to the idea that we'll see Jon on the throne, but not because his Targ bloodline puts him there. I suspect that he's the legitimate son of R+L, but will choose to identify himself and be recognized as a bastard and may end up on the throne because of that. I don't think he's THE hero of everything or anything like that, but I do think he's positioned to play a significant role wrt the Battle of the Dawn, and I suspect he'll earn recognition in that role. I'm also suspecting he'll be one of the few leaders standing by the end. I can see his ascending the throne via consensus in the aftermath of crisis, in part because his identity as a Snow places him outside of specific family loyalties and makes him an outsider to the extant power structures (sort of like how the Targs were originally outsiders and that helped their recognition as authorities above the rest). There's also incredibly elegant literary symmetry to seeing Jon, a (potentially) legitimate, though publicly perceived bastard sitting on the throne at the end as a symbol of peace, while an illegitimate, though publicly legitimate bastard's sitting the throne is what started the war in the first place.

Though I think Jon is positioned to be the best candidate to do this, I think in general we're going to see a king take the throne due to deeds and consensus rather than due to bloodline. Look at Varys' plans for Aegon. Yes, part of the plan is to have Aegon sold as Rhaegar's returned son, but that wasn't enough; Varys had him trained to be an Enlightened Monarch and was fabricating this strawman Dothraki invasion so that Aegon could swoop in and win over Westeros as a savior. Consider also Stannis' goal; post Davos' intervention, Stannis believes that once he performs his Azor Ahai heroics in battle, he'll be recognized as rightful for those deeds and ascend the throne. Increasingly, candidates are recognizing that they must perform some sort of valuable service to the realm and gain consensus, and I strongly believe that someone who does, in fact perform a valuable service will be chosen (not that I'm suggesting Westeros will move toward democracy or anything, but rather, that the next king will be chosen through a Council of sorts for reasons that reveal a sense of political progress, such as earned rightfulness, fitness for rule, etc).

I think the Battle for the Dawn is the big "service" a candidate will have to perform in, and I think Jon is in prime position for that. I think he'll distinguish himself as a leader, but not necessarily as the "big main hero of prophesies" and so forth.

So the way I see R+L is mainly of incredible significance to Jon's character, specifically, his finally choosing to be a Snow, which I think actually gives him a better shot at being chosen by those remaining after all this for kingship, given the way the status quo has been shattered and moving toward progress.

I agree with you on how Jon will become King. But isn't this scenario more likely for him to be King of the North. Cause I find it hard to believe a whole continent will rise for one person. Especially when there are soo many cultural and religious conflicts, such as Dorne, the faith, and the southeners. I remember GRRM said Aegon converted to the faith for political reasons, as the people would accept him more as a faith worshiper.

So I see it more likely of him becoming the KotN rather than the King of the IT.

[Trigger Warning]

I'd like it if Jon simply doesn't take the throne and acts as the King/Queen's Night's Watch general against the Others.

The whole death and end of vows seems a little off, Jon doesn't seem like the kind of person to give up his vow based on a technicality of wording.

[Guard of the Rainking]

What exactly do you think this story is, a true crime drama? This is Martin's fairy tale and the fact remains, there has been a crap ton of foreshadowing, since the first book; regarding Jon either being a king/heir in hiding or a King in the end. Hell, I'll even give you the first one that I can recall from aGoT. It was in Winterfell, the night of the feast when Robert came. Jon, was out in the yard pissed off and Tyrion came and spoke with him. As their conversation ended, Tyrion had a thought in his mind, when he noticed both their SHADOWS on a building wall/ground.

Tyrion's inner thoughts "At this moment, Tyrion was as tall as a King" I'm paraphrasing the line, someone feel free to correct me.

A story with no clear-cut heroes or villains, but grey and complex characters in a fantasy setting. Having an ending where "the chosen one" unites the land, defeats all evil and is crowned would be horrible.

[Mithras]

This is all speculation, and some of it-- like the idea that Jon would actually embrace a Targ identity, goes directly counter to all of his personal development and character progression.

On the bolded: what will happen to the dragons as "paternity tools" in the event that the Ironborn or some other clearly non-Targ character mounts one? And there's a vault of paternity proofs in the crypts that will proclaim to the rest of the Westerosi that Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and they will bow to him for this?

Why do you think the Westerosi will give even half a shit about having a trueborn Targ sit the throne? And even if they did, why would Rhaegar's harp in the crypt trump Dany and flaming dragons or Aegon, who was known to be legit and looks the part? For the same reasons everyone just knew Joffrey wasn't Robert's true son and bowed to Stannis resultantly?

ETA: I do agree with the black cloaks part as potential foreshadowing of the Watch's becoming everything and nothing.

I don’t think embracing his Targ identity is against his character development. He will be told of his true parentage but bastard or not, he is in the process of being acknowledged as a natural leader. The mountain clan chiefs are already following his policies. I think once the dust is settled in the North, the rest of the Northerners will follow his lead as well. He is able to do these as Jon Snow, he does not need to declare himself as Jon Targaryen yet. However, I think after Dany wins the Dance, he will make the declaration public and command every remaining force to join him.

The common folk might not give a fig to Jon’s heritage but still, there are lords and ladies, who think different than the common folk. I think they prefer a king of royal blood even if the claimant pretty much saves the humanity.

And there is another thing. All the people who will meet Jon on person will think “The man is not a liar nor he is after lands and titles as he proved before. So he has no reason to lie about it.”

[Northbound2.0]

A story with no clear-cut heroes or villains, but grey and complex characters in a fantasy setting. Having an ending where "the chosen one" unites the land, defeats all evil and is crowned would be horrible.

I don't recall, anyone saying that Jon is Neo/Harry Potter/Aragorn or Luke Skywalker in this thread. Nor do I see any mention of him being the only person who will defeat all the evil, it's going to be a massive effort, with loads of people involved. However, it is likely that Jon is going to be one the more noticed leaders during this conflict....as he is already one of them. Dany, most likely will be there. Perhaps Stannis. Sansa and Rickkon for sure and demigod Bran as well.