Jon Snow claim to the throne

[Stormland's Fury]

This. No one in the Westeros would believe this tale. Aren't Howland Reed and Benjen like the only people that might know the truth?

And even then (in the case he actually is Rhaegar's son) he has the "misfortune" to look like a pure Stark.

[Drake Heath]

With the realm so divided, why wouldn't this be a problem for everyone who is a contestant? This isn't exclusive to Jon, but anyone.

I'm not sure why a separate North would be a logical conclusion, rather than a step backwards from unity.

Whoever sits the throne will need to rebuild, and do so in a way that reflects the changes the kingdom has faced. But at its most basic level, choosing a king who is publicly understood to be a bastard is inherently a progressive step from where this story began-- where power allegedly depends on being born within wedlock to the right father and so forth. Having a council choose the next king based on something other than a bloodline claim is a gesture of progress.

Who says Jon is truly dead and that we will see a literal resurrection?

He's already begun to garner wider support from various factions-- the Watch, the wildlings and the Northern clansmen were looking to him as their leader in this conflict.

This doesn't "solve" all of the issues. This offers a literary conclusion to the counterpoints of power dynamics we've set up. It doesn't give Westeros a democracy or a non-monarchal system, or enfranchisement of the smallfolk, but it offers a believable gesture forward.

I don't see how Westeros being any less a hereditary monarchy would help at all, the Free Cities and the Slaver's Bay cities were republics and life blew there like anywhere else.

What I'm saying is, Westeros needs about 500 to 1000 years or so of technological development for the smallfolk's lives to improve, the form of government wont make all that much of a difference unless they end up a crazy communist dictatorship.

Dirt poor substance farmers were everywhere even in the most democratic countries before the invention of mechanized mass farming.

[butterbumps!]

I don't see how Westeros being any less a hereditary monarchy would help at all, the Free Cities and the Slaver's Bay cities were republics and life blew there like anywhere else.

I don't understand your comment.

Have we seen Westeros' absolute monarchy fall apart over the course of the series? Has the power system been irrecoverably overtuned? Yes? I don't see what the issue is.

I'm not sure if you're mistaking my comments as suggesting that whatever we see in Westeros at the end will be an ideal and perfect system of government, or that we're going to have a republic or some ridiculous thing. I'm pointing out that the system isn't just going to go back to an absolute monarchy where the king is chosen for bloodline, and that Jon's appointment as a Snow would be a suitable conclusion to that dilemma, as well as a gesture of overall progress from the absolute monarchy we began with.

ETA:

What I'm saying is, Westeros needs about 500 to 1000 years or so of technological development for the smallfolk's lives to improve, the form of government wont make all that much of a difference unless they end up a crazy communist dictatorship.

Dirt poor substance farmers were everywhere even in the most democratic countries before the invention of mechanized mass farming.

Why is this all or nothing? I'm saying that "King Jon Snow" would represent a step forward and a logical conclusion to some of the power tensions we've seen, not some ultimate solution to every social ill of Westeros.

[Mithras]

And even then (in the case he actually is Rhaegar's son) he has the "misfortune" to look like a pure Stark.

“All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.”

[Drake Heath]

I don't understand your comment.

Have we seen Westeros' absolute monarchy fall apart over the course of the series? Has the power system been irrecoverably overtuned? Yes? I don't see what the issue is.

I'm not sure if you're mistaking my comments as suggesting that whatever we see in Westeros at the end will be an ideal and perfect system of government, or that we're going to have a republic or some ridiculous thing. I'm pointing out that the system isn't just going to go back to an absolute monarchy where the king is chosen for bloodline, and that Jon's appointment as a Snow would be a suitable conclusion to that dilemma, as well as a gesture of overall progress from the absolute monarchy we began with.

I was just kinda making a comment not really directed at anything, I just quote people sometimes to give my thoughts context, Westeros wasn't really an absolute monarchy to begin with, those don't really exist in a country as large as Westeros, it's like in the Middle Ages where monarchs were technically absolute, but they had to listen to the lords of the realm or end up like Aerys, and kings were often overthrown by their lords for less than what he did.

It's funny, the Targaryens had stayed in power for 300 years, which is extraordinarily long compared to most European dynasties in the Middle Ages.

[MoIaF]

I think the one of the issues I have with Jon becoming king is that there wouldn't be any real change, if you think about it. Even if Jon chooses to be a Snow (which is consistent with his character) and he somehow gets chosen by the people as their king, we would still go full circle to where a Targaryen's ends up as the ruler of Westeros. Irregardless of whether or not Jon chooses to keep his indenting as a Bastard, he's the the product of two of the most powerful families in the story. So, in the end someone with royal blood will still rule. Now, I'm not saying it's not going to happen, but it would still be the story of someone with royal blood becoming king.

[Stormland's Fury]

“All that is gold does not glitter,

Still someone like Aegon has better chances it that department. Then again those idiots didn't notice that the Baratheon kids looked like Lannisters, but at least they were presumed to be Robert's. Jon still would have a hard time convincing anyone.

[butterbumps!]

I think the one of the issues I have with Jon becoming king is that there wouldn't be any real change, if you think about it. Even if Jon chooses to be a Snow (which is consistent with his character) and he somehow gets chosen by the people as their king, we would still go full circle to where a Targaryen's ends up as the ruler of Westeros. Irregardless of whether or not Jon chooses to keep his indenting as a Bastard, he's the the product of two of the most powerful families in the story. So, in the end someone with royal blood will still rule. Now, I'm not saying it's not going to happen, but it would still be the story of someone with royal blood becoming king.

It would be though. What's critical is what people believe, and if there's been a paradigm shift from people believing power stems from blood to recognizing "something else," then this is significant progress.

I was just kinda making a comment not really directed at anything, I just quote people sometimes to give my thoughts context, Westeros wasn't really an absolute monarchy to begin with, those don't really exist in a country as large as Westeros, it's like in the Middle Ages where monarchs were technically absolute, but they had to listen to the lords of the realm or end up like Aerys, and kings were often overthrown by their lords for less than what he did.

It's funny, the Targaryens had stayed in power for 300 years, which is extraordinarily long compared to most European dynasties in the Middle Ages.

But unlike the real middle ages, the Targs had dragons that placed them above the laws of gods and men, and rendered their power pretty absolute.

[Drake Heath]

It would be though. What's critical is what people believe, and if there's been a paradigm shift from people believing power stems from blood to recognizing "something else," then this is significant progress.

But unlike the real middle ages, the Targs had dragons that placed them above the laws of gods and men, and rendered their power pretty absolute.

True that, but they eventually stopped having dragons and the natural order of things was restored.

By natural order I mean chaotic changes in government to keep everyone in check.

[DaeronDrumm]

This. No one in the Westeros would believe this tale. Aren't Howland Reed and Benjen like the only people that might know the truth?

The R+L=J story sounds very much like something Northerners would outright fabricate to justify a Stark usurpation... :cool4:

Maybe he DOES usurp the throne in the end and ASOIAF is Stark propaganda whitewashing it! *tinfoilhat*

[butterbumps!]

True that, but they eventually stopped having dragons and the natural order of things was restored.

By natural order I mean chaotic changes in government to keep everyone in check.

Yes-- the loss of dragons eroded that power, and since Robert's Rebellion, the question of what constitutes power is being teased out by the Westerosi, and it's very fluid at the moment. It was finally at Robb's "election" that people articulated how the absence of dragons challenged the idea of fealty to the IT. That's to say, the loss of dragons didn't end the Targ's power exactly, because that inertia kept it place, such that people still recognized this power even after the source of it was gone. Even after Robert took the throne-- it was still a "l'etat c'est moi" mentality.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Yes if he marries Margaery Tyrell ,or takes the throne by force using an army of north men, wildings and others. Even if J=R+L he has no claim that anybody will recognize even if Howland Reed made his long waited for appearance . He claimed by Eddard Stark as his son and that's all everybody knows.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

“All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.”

I always loved in a found it perfect for Jon, I think that it goes like this for Jon:

All that is gold does not glitter,

Jon is the King but he doen't have the royal "glitter"

Not all those who wander are lost;

Jon has wondered but he will find his way to his home/throne

The old that is strong does not wither,

Jon after all things that have happen to him in his heart is still Ned's son

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

Although he had many reasons and opportunities Jon's roots (honor, ideals) haven't "wither" from "bad influences"

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

Jon's ressuraction as AAR

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Jon as AAR fighting the Others

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

LB (I believe that NW is LB) & the Realm

The crownless again shall be king.

Jon

[El Guapo]

The little bastard boy, who doesn't realize he was born a king but nevertheless ascends to the throne at the end because he helped save humanity and the people all love him would be the absolute worst way to end this great series of books. I pray everyday to the old gods and the new that GRRM does not go down this path.

[Stormland's Fury]

The little bastard boy, who doesn't realize he was born a king but nevertheless ascends to the throne at the end because he helped save humanity and the people all love him would be the absolute worst way to end this great series of books. I pray everyday to the old gods and the new that GRRM does not go down this path.

Nothing against Jon, I've come to like him much more, but yeah I don't hope either GRRM goes down that path.

[Roddy the Ruin]

We are all allowed to have our opinions :)

I'd prefer Jon ends up as King of the North + Other Kingdoms, but I do think Martin is heading for him to be KOT7K, and I'm personally ok with it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Nothing against Jon, I've come to like him much more, but yeah I don't hope either GRRM goes down that path.

But it's still better that: The most beautiful woman in the world who has *suffered* a lot gains power, everyone falls in love with her and saves the world with a smile. I don't even mention that this far she is the personification of the mighty whitey trope among many others.

We are all allowed to have our opinions :)

I'd prefer Jon ends up as King of the North + Other Kingdoms, but I do think Martin is heading for him to be KOT7K, and I'm personally ok with it.

:agree:

[Roddy the Ruin]

But it's still better that: The most beautiful woman in the world who has *suffered* a lot gains power, everyone falls in love with her and saves the world with a smile. I don't even mention that this far she is the personification of the mighty whitey trope among many others.

:agree:

I would still rather Robb be alive though :(

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I would still rather Robb be alive though :(

He could be as long as Jon would be the King I have no problem with him being alive, if he wasn't stupid.

[Stormland's Fury]

But it's still better that: The most beautiful woman in the world who has *suffered* a lot gains power, everyone falls in love with her and saves the world with a smile. I don't even mention that this far she is the personification of the mighty whitey trope among many others.

No, no I want none of this shit to happen. I want something original.