What will happen to Tormund? (Book spoilers!)

[Arkash]

As I often said, there is quite an easy way to introduce her next season :

She shows up at the Wall with Mance's baby, saying her sister the mother have died giving birth and Selyse and Melissandre ask that she be imprisoned. Jon would be conflicted about that and it would set up the good alchemy they have which would be a lost of the show if they'd not use it.

[Onna Lewyys]

They are not going to introduce Mance's baby out of the clear blue sky. If he was going to have a pregnant mate, they would have mentioned her at some point last season when Jon was with them. Sorry, Arkash, that whole subplot lifts right out.

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

I'm sure Tormund will survive.

Also - I like the change to his character. I didn't like the "I fucked a giant! Har!" pirate lines. This Tormund is funny, but not cartoonish.

[SlowLoras]

The show's already crammed with characters - you can get away with a gigantic cast in a book, but a TV show necessarily has more restraints. It seems they're (mostly) utilising only characters who have a significant part to play in proceedings. In cases like Gendry, whose role is significant in the early parts of the book but not the latter, they've merged him with Edric, thus saving viewer confusion (and casting an entirely new actor when the existing character is already relatively well-liked.)

So imo, unless Val's role becomes significant in the next book, she probably won't be cast. Ultimately, she's been of little consequence to the plot so far, so I don't really see them casting her when they can merge her character with someone else's - Tormund's a good bet, although I'm not sure he'll be kept in the tower, gazing out of the window :P

[six]

Any theory that leaves Val out is a winner with me. I can't stand her, she's a fanfiction, mary sue, cliche badass female character, and I hate those with a burning passion, and this is coming from someone whose favourite female character is Brienne. It's not Val being a typically strong female character that bothers me, it's the fact she's one note, two-dimensional, beautiful with big boobs that no one ever fails to notice, so witty, so perfect, inexplicably lady like despite being a wildling... UGH. It disappointed me so much that the same author able to write female characters so beautifully layered and flawed, would succumb to the walking wet dream that usually plagues fantasy fiction.

Now that I've spewed all my venom at Val's direction, I do hope this is the case. Also we need to keep in mind that the show is going to condense affc/adwd into one season for all characters. I think it would be wiser for them to 1- use the characters they already have and 2- the wall will be crowded with characters: the whole of Team Dragonstone, the NW, Mance, Tormund, Gilly/baby... I'd much rather they spent the time to built interactions between those characters, since many of those relationships are important. They only have limited time.

And about Gilly/baby... I do wonder how that's gonna go down. In the books Jon swaps them in an attempt to save Mance's baby, thing is it's now clear from the show that the only child needed at the Wall is Craster's legacy anyway... So I wonder how that's going to work.

[Tixu Oty]

Any theory that leaves Val out is a winner with me. I can't stand her, she's a fanfiction,

[snip]

it's the fact she's one note, two-dimensional, beautiful with big boobs that no one ever fails to notice, so witty, so perfect, inexplicably lady like despite being a wildling... UGH. It disappointed me so much that the same author able to write female characters so beautifully layered and flawed, would succumb to the walking wet dream that usually plagues fantasy fiction.

Thanks, now I know why I could never relate to that character! ^-^

[SlowLoras]

Any theory that leaves Val out is a winner with me.<snip> It's not Val being a typically strong female character that bothers me, it's the fact she's one note, two-dimensional, beautiful with big boobs that no one ever fails to notice, so witty, so perfect, inexplicably lady like despite being a wildling... UGH. It disappointed me so much that the same author able to write female characters so beautifully layered and flawed, would succumb to the walking wet dream that usually plagues fantasy fiction.

This is what bugs me about Val too. GRRM is generally very good at writing female characters, partly because he remembers that women are as inherently flawed as men, and are as much products of their environment as men. Thus you have Ygritte, a not-especially-attractive girl with irritating qualities who also happens to be a badass wildling spearwife who successfully wooes the chaste hero. You have Sansa, widely considered beautiful and ladylike, but hopelessly naive to begin with, and growing hardened and cynical. Arya, plain and tomboyish but fierce and determined. Danaerys, beautiful, young and ambitious but overreaching, naive and prone to making rash decisions. Asha, sexually confident and in control, as strong and worthy as any man but aggressive and lacks the strength of character to win the kingsmoot.

And then there's Val, who just seems...cartoonish? I don't know, she's got all these amazing qualities - she's the blonde, beautiful, buxom fantasy stereotype, a wildling who rides horses and succeeds where men fail without ever really getting her hands dirty, whose one flaw (so far) has been her fear of Shireen and even that is justifiable. Unless this is all a red herring and something interesting happens with her in WoW - something which doesn't continue to play off these beautiful Scandinavian warrior-woman/temptress cliches - I'm rooting for Tormund or one of the other Wildlings to take her place.

[six]

And then there's Val, who just seems...cartoonish? I don't know, she's got all these amazing qualities - she's the blonde, beautiful, buxom fantasy stereotype, a wildling who rides horses and succeeds where men fail without ever really getting her hands dirty, whose one flaw (so far) has been her fear of Shireen and even that is justifiable. Unless this is all a red herring and something interesting happens with her in WoW - something which doesn't continue to play off these beautiful Scandinavian warrior-woman/temptress cliches - I'm rooting for Tormund or one of the other Wildlings to take her place.

This. It's the reason why I usually stay away from a good chunk of fantasy literature, because so many female characters are the stereotypical "feisty sexy badass woman warrior" trope and nothing more. I want to make a bonfire out of all those books with those cliche characters I've ever had the misfortune of reading, that's how much I hate it. I rolled my eyes every time Val popped up in adwd (luckily she's not in it all that much).

I don't know about anyone else, but personally I don't need to like like a character to like them... Am I making any sense? I don't like Cersei, I think she's horrible by default, but I think she's one of the most interesting characters of the whole series. Same with Dany, she does my head in and frustrates me to no end, but she's so fascinating to read. Or Melisandre. Or even Ygritte, I thought she was annoying in fact, but she felt 3D and endearing, and I cried when she died. I like that so many of the asoiaf female characters can be weak, pathetic and an absolute failure at times, it makes them "human". I want to read about complex and flawed characters, not about hollow, sassy, kickass, princesses everyone wants to sleep with and are oh-so-much-better than all the boys (UGH). It's boring and patronising.

So yeah, this is to say that for all the problems I have with the show, I'd be forever grateful if they at least spare me from Val and they kinda owe to me after the number they did on Jaime ;)

[~DarkHorse~]

Jon has good chemistry with Alys too. Jon just loves all the ladies.

I think the little kid from the Gift could fill the Satin role, as far as being Jon's squire anyway.

:agree:

This should also be interesting considering the Kid is probably going to kill Ygritte. In the books he doesn't want to know which of his 'brothers' killed Ygritte. I'm betting they'll make some drama with this if they make the Kid the Satin replacement and Ygritte's killer.

[MoIaF]

Any theory that leaves Val out is a winner with me. I can't stand her, she's a fanfiction, mary sue, cliche badass female character, and I hate those with a burning passion, and this is coming from someone whose favourite female character is Brienne. It's not Val being a typically strong female character that bothers me, it's the fact she's one note, two-dimensional, beautiful with big boobs that no one ever fails to notice, so witty, so perfect, inexplicably lady like despite being a wildling... UGH. It disappointed me so much that the same author able to write female characters so beautifully layered and flawed, would succumb to the walking wet dream that usually plagues fantasy fiction.

Now that I've spewed all my venom at Val's direction, I do hope this is the case. Also we need to keep in mind that the show is going to condense affc/adwd into one season for all characters. I think it would be wiser for them to 1- use the characters they already have and 2- the wall will be crowded with characters: the whole of Team Dragonstone, the NW, Mance, Tormund, Gilly/baby... I'd much rather they spent the time to built interactions between those characters, since many of those relationships are important. They only have limited time.

And about Gilly/baby... I do wonder how that's gonna go down. In the books Jon swaps them in an attempt to save Mance's baby, thing is it's now clear from the show that the only child needed at the Wall is Craster's legacy anyway... So I wonder how that's going to work.

This is what bugs me about Val too. GRRM is generally very good at writing female characters, partly because he remembers that women are as inherently flawed as men, and are as much products of their environment as men. Thus you have Ygritte, a not-especially-attractive girl with irritating qualities who also happens to be a badass wildling spearwife who successfully wooes the chaste hero. You have Sansa, widely considered beautiful and ladylike, but hopelessly naive to begin with, and growing hardened and cynical. Arya, plain and tomboyish but fierce and determined. Danaerys, beautiful, young and ambitious but overreaching, naive and prone to making rash decisions. Asha, sexually confident and in control, as strong and worthy as any man but aggressive and lacks the strength of character to win the kingsmoot.

And then there's Val, who just seems...cartoonish? I don't know, she's got all these amazing qualities - she's the blonde, beautiful, buxom fantasy stereotype, a wildling who rides horses and succeeds where men fail without ever really getting her hands dirty, whose one flaw (so far) has been her fear of Shireen and even that is justifiable. Unless this is all a red herring and something interesting happens with her in WoW - something which doesn't continue to play off these beautiful Scandinavian warrior-woman/temptress cliches - I'm rooting for Tormund or one of the other Wildlings to take her place.

It's so nice to of know I'm not the only one. What drives me crazy is that we all fans of the series enjoy it mostly because of its realistic (in fiction) portrayal of the human condition. What's the quote from Faulkner that GRRM uses "the human heart in conflict with itself".

So, we love the story because of this complexity yet this uncomplicated character that is Val gets all the praise and is held up as a beacon of virtue when we know nothing of her other than by all appearances she's "perfect". Yuk! And I call bullshit, nobody is that perfect and I highly doubt GRRM is going to end the story with the "main hero" Jon marry to the perfect woman and king of Westeros. Yeah right!

As for the show, I agree her role can be take over by both Tormund and Mel (for sexual tension and temptation).

[~DarkHorse~]

Thank You! :bowdown:

Anytime I suggest Jon/Val is more cliché than Jon/Dany or that Val has a Mary Sue quality about her people don't react well. I'll never understand the love for her or Jon/Val which I dread more than Jon/Dany.

[Onna Lewyys]

Personally, I don't feel anything for Val.

[six]

:agree:

This should also be interesting considering the Kid is probably going to kill Ygritte. In the books he doesn't want to know which of his 'brothers' killed Ygritte. I'm betting they'll make some drama with this if they make the Kid the Satin replacement and Ygritte's killer.

I also think it will be the case, which is fine I guess. The only reason why I'd miss Satin is because I wanted to see Jon's reaction to him. I know he never says it out loud how pretty Satin is, but I would have loved to see Jon stare at Satin during the battle and say to myself "he's thinking about Satin's soft hands and pretty looks in the midst of a terrible battle" :laugh: man, what a missed opportunity.

It's so nice to of know I'm not the only one. What drives me crazy is that we all fans of the series enjoy it mostly because of its realistic (in fiction) portrayal of the human condition. What's the quote from Faulkner that GRRM uses "the human heart in conflict with itself".

So, we love the story because of this complexity yet this uncomplicated character that is Val gets all the praise and is held up as a beacon of virtue when we know nothing of her other than by all appearances she's "perfect". Yuk! And I call bullshit, nobody is that perfect and I highly doubt GRRM is going to end the story with the "main hero" Jon marry to the perfect woman and king of Westeros. Yeah right!

As for the show, I agree her role can be take over by both Tormund and Mel (for sexual tension and temptation).

He's tempted by Mel in the books anyway... He tries to keep her at arm's length, just like he did with Ygritte. I've never thought he was particularly tempted by Val anyway, sure he likes her and the idea of Winterfell, a wife and children and very appealing to him, but beyond that I didn't see much. He's never bothered or resentful at the idea of Val going with someone else, just annoyed that people would suggest he'd keep her for himself.

[Withnail86]

Is there a possibility that they'll use Tormund in Rattleshirt's role re: Melisandre's Mance transformation? So in essence, Hivju would take over the role of Mance Rayder in future seasons. Rattleshirt has been a nonentity so far, and so has Mance, for that matter. For whatever reason, D&D seem to be using the bare minimum of Ciaran Hinds, who couldn't have been cheap. It would also be a very nice callback to that first scene in 301 where Jon mistakes Tormund for Mance. I dunno, seems as good a use of Series Regular Kristofer Hivju as any.

[MoIaF]

He's tempted by Mel in the books anyway... He tries to keep her at arm's length, just like he did with Ygritte. I've never thought he was particularly tempted by Val anyway, sure he likes her and the idea of Winterfell, a wife and children and very appealing to him, but beyond that I didn't see much. He's never bothered or resentful at the idea of Val going with someone else, just annoyed that people would suggest he'd keep her for himself.

Exactly! Kill two birds with one stone. Unless Val is truly important there is no need to muddle the waters with more than one temptation. One temptation would be enough for the TV show. Especially as we can imagine Mel will play a large role throughout the books, so she'll already be there.

[Onna Lewyys]

Is there a possibility that they'll use Tormund in Rattleshirt's role re: Melisandre's Mance transformation? So in essence, Hivju would take over the role of Mance Rayder in future seasons. Rattleshirt has been a nonentity so far, and so has Mance, for that matter. For whatever reason, D&D seem to be using the bare minimum of Ciaran Hinds, who couldn't have been cheap. It would also be a very nice callback to that first scene in 301 where Jon mistakes Tormund for Mance. I dunno, seems as good a use of Series Regular Kristofer Hivju as any.

I imagine "Rattleshirt" will just be Ciaran Hinds wearing bones, but I guess we'll see.

[~DarkHorse~]

I'm fine with some Mel temptation for Jon...as long as they don't go all Gendry with him.

I bet they'll be anything but subtle with Mel's advances. :mellow:

[six]

Exactly! Kill two birds with one stone. Unless Val is truly important there is no need to muddle the waters with more than one temptation. One temptation would be enough for the TV show. Especially as we can imagine Mel will play a large role throughout the books, so she'll already be there.

Imo, if Val was truly important they wouldn't have spent so much time developing Ygritte since season 2. She had a whole of 3 episodes dedicated to her and Jon in season 2, in season 3 the whole wildling arc was basically about Jon falling for her, she's still alive now and presumably they'll meet again... I might be wrong, but they've spent more time on her than they have on let's say Drogo. I've always thought that Val as a New and Improved Ygritte replacement was a cheap move, and Mel is clearly going to be very relevant going forward.

RE Mance: idk what they're doing with him, he's been underused so far, but I'm fairly sure he'll have his adwd arc more or less. Hopefully we'll see on screen all those scenes that happened off page with him.

I'm fine with some Mel temptation for Jon...as long as they don't go all Gendry with him.

I bet they'll be anything but subtle with Mel's advances. :mellow:

Yeah, they're not subtle. But Mel trying to win over Jon is a bit of a slow burn in the books, so hopefully they won't be too heavy handed.

[MoIaF]

Imo, if Val was truly important they wouldn't have spent so much time developing Ygritte since season 2. She had a whole of 3 episodes dedicated to her and Jon in season 2, in season 3 the whole wildling arc was basically about Jon falling for her, she's still alive now and presumably they'll meet again... I might be wrong, but they've spent more time on her than they have on let's say Drogo. I've always thought that Val as a New and Improved Ygritte replacement was a cheap move, and Mel is clearly going to be very relevant going forward.

RE Mance: idk what they're doing with him, he's been underused so far, but I'm fairly sure he'll have his adwd arc more or less. Hopefully we'll see on screen all those scenes that happened off page with him.

Yeah, they're not subtle. But Mel trying to win over Jon is a bit of a slow burn in the books, so hopefully they won't be too heavy handed.

I'm actually surprise that they extended Ygritte's arc so much. No my favorite character so I would have preferred they killed her off a little earlier. I'm sure they kept her on because she fit the D&D's timeline for the TV show which is a bit out of sync with the books.

But as you say by keeping her longer on the show it would be really weird for them to introduce Val so quickly after Ygritte's death. As I said in another thread, if they try to start up something between Jon and Val next season it would make Jon look fickle. It would also diminish Ygritte's importance in Jon's life.

RE: Mance

I hope that after the battle at the Wall they will "reintroduce" his character to show he will become a bigger part of Jon's storyline.

[Onna Lewyys]

I'm actually surprise that they extended Ygritte's arc so much. No my favorite character so I would have preferred they killed her off a little earlier. I'm sure they kept her on because she fit the D&D's timeline for the TV show which is a bit out of sync with the books.

I love Ygritte, but I hate that she's not dead yet on the show. I thought we were going to follow her as a main character this season, but obviously that hasn't happened. So when she dies now, we'll have been an entire season removed from her & Jon's relationship. I feel like that's going to undercut some of the emotion of it.

I wonder if they'll have Jon & Tormund toast her memory at any point like they do in the book. That'd be nice.