US Politics: Meet the New Right, same as the Old Right

[lokisnow]

SC,

Indeed. I've questioned the effacacy of the ACA in controling costs and now the increase in healthcare costs, because if the ACA, is being trotted out as a positive.

Scot, a spike in Healthcare spending was expected due to people paying premiums (or getting on medicaid) who had not paid premiums before. It's one time for the year 2014. If next year's open enrollment gets another batch of enrollees we'll likely get another spike. It's also likely that people who had been putting off non urgent healthcare and have been unable to access the healthcare system before now may be overconsuming relative to their long term trend because right now they en masse are burning through decades of pent-up demand.

In other words, it's an outlier we expected to accompany the first year of implementation.

***

in other news, the economy added 288,000 jobs and unemployment dropped to 6.3%

More importantly, revisions for February and March were good, they were revised up by 36,000 jobs total.

That's the best month since January 2012.

Government employment rolls increased by 15,000 which is a great sign because this is the only recovery from a recession in history that has had government shrinkage over the duration of the recovery. I think there's like a half million government jobs deficit to make up, though, so it will likely stay negative. Reagan and Bush's recoveries were largely built on massively expanding the government by hundreds of thousands of jobs each, Obama's recovery, on the other hand, is built on making government smaller and suffering the long term economic pain of a smaller government.

The Upshot had a great article yesterday on how jobs numbers can vary wildly and don't ascribe too much to any perceived trend because of the possibility of noise. I'd provide the link, but I don't have the tab open anymore and to find the link would require me to use another NYT free article.

[Suttree]

Unlike you I read the articles.

Bwhahaha. Again either totally dishonest or not a very smart troll. I suggest a more thorough dive into what the percentage means in relation to your original false claim. Goal posts shifting per usual.

Next. Actually check that, we know what comes after ACA....

IRS, Benghazi, Obbbbbaaammmmmaaaa!!!

[DanteGabriel]

I'm still waiting for Bundy's criminal arrest record to be posted on here

Huh? Is this because someone once said Bundy was a criminal for failing to pay his fees for 20 years and you think you've caught the libruls in a big lie? Do you seriously think that's a big rhetorical coup?

Your act is getting more and more pathetic. The fact that you're still shilling for that ignorant racist deadbeat is pretty sad.

[grumdin]

Bwhahaha. Again either totally dishonest or not a very smart troll. I suggest a more thorough dive into what the percentage means in relation to your original false claim. Goal posts shifting per usual.

Next. Actually check that, we know what comes after ACA....

IRS, Benghazi, Obbbbbaaammmmmaaaa!!!

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-04-21/are-obamacare-s-latest-numbers-good-news-or-bad

By March, the percentage of young adults in the pool was hovering at around 25 percent. As I wrote back then, to get to the 38.5 percent that the administration was originally targeting, they needed for there to be a huge surge in enrollment -- and for that surge to be much, much younger than the previous waves of enrollees.

Like I said the demographics in the pools suck.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DG,

For one, the increased health care spending is at least partially driven by the large number of people getting insurance and going to hospital visits. If someone had no insurance before and now they're spending out-of-pocket cash and getting subsidies for their new insurance plan, well of fucking course spending has gone up

You're missing my point. I've said, for years, that the ACA (as structured) would cause healthcare costs to continue to go up. That is why I've said, for years, that it is treating the symptoms of the crisis (people unable to afford insurance) rather than the illness (people unable to afford healthcare).

As demand for healthcare goes up of course cost of scarce healthcare resources will rise as well. Tracker, Shryke, Fez, and a few others have poo pooed my prediction saying "there are cost control mechanisms in the ACA". When I pointed out that cost were still rising I was told I was being alarmist that its normal for costs to go up. Now we're seeing a spike in the cost of healthcare being spun as a good thing for the economy rather than a sign that the "cost control measures" may not be doing what they were supposed to do.

I've stated any number of times that single payer, which we know will work (but for philosophical reasons isn't my favorite solution) is much preferable to a system that will exacerbate the existing problem, rising healthcare costs.

Am I still "rolling with the 'Know-nothings'"?

[Inigima]

Scot, what's your favorite solution that works?

[DanteGabriel]

DG,

You're missing my point. I've said, for years, that the ACA (as structured) would cause healthcare costs to continue to go up. That is why I've said, for years, that it is treating the symptoms of the crisis (people unable to afford insurance) rather than the illness (people unable to afford healthcare).

As demand for healthcare goes up of course cost of scarse healthcare resources will rise as well. Tracker, Shryke, Fez, and a few others have poo pooed my prediction saying "there are cost control mechanisms in the ACA". When I pointed out that cost were still rising I was told I was being alarmist that its normal for costs to go up. Now we're seeing a spike in the cost of healthcarw being spun as a good thing for the economy rather than a sign that the "cost control measures" may not be doing what they were supposed to do.

I've stated any number of times that single payer, which we know will work (but for philosophical reasons isn't my favorite solution, is much preferable to a system that will exacerbate the existing problem, rising healthcare costs.

Am I still "rolling with the 'Know-nothings'"?

Maybe you missed my point too. It's possible costs (as opposed to spending) went up. I don't know enough from the article to say. Did the costs go up more than they had been going up before ACA? Or was the acceleration slowed down? Is there a "spike? in the growth of costs? If so, I'd like to see some data supporting it.

I can't speak to whatever people were saying about the cost control measures. I never expected the ACA to immediately arrest the growth of costs. If they slowed down the growth of costs, I'd take that as a positive and ask Congress to go to work to fine tune the law to improve its performance on that front -- but who are we kidding, the Republicans will never agree to actually do their jobs and work on real legislation.

As for single-payer, yes, I certainly agree that single payer is a better solution than what there is. But in which fantasy universe would a single-payer plan pass?

[Suttree]

Like I said the demographics in the pools suck.

Changing font size, bolding and repeating ad infinitum doesn't make your fabrication anymore true.

If you're going to go through the effort of creating an alt and then spend this much time here don't you even want to pretend to debate in good faith? You over play your hand on a daily basis at this point.

As for single-payer, yes, I certainly agree that single payer is a better solution than what there is. But in which fantasy universe would a single-payer plan pass?

This.

[grumdin]

Huh? Is this because someone once said Bundy was a criminal for failing to pay his fees for 20 years and you think you've caught the libruls in a big lie? Do you seriously think that's a big rhetorical coup?

Your act is getting more and more pathetic. The fact that you're still shilling for that ignorant racist deadbeat is pretty

Some have short memories

If he were black I doubt it'd be much of an issue and we wouldn't ever have heard of him. I wouldn't hate on him, because he wouldn't be some big militia darling crowing some ignorant interpretation of federalism. No militia army would show up to threaten federal agents, and whole story blows over and is only a local curiosity. But because it's tied in to militia guys whining about how oppressed they are, it got all this attention. So no, I wouldn't shower so much hate on him, because he'd just be some obscure dumb-ass rancher who broke the law and not the latest hero to misguided overprivileged twits like Bong of Ice and Fire.

1) please provide evidence that any of the militia member(s), pleural, 'showed up to threaten Federal Agents'.

2) beyond his failure to pay fees, which is not a criminal offense, please provide citations of Mr. Bundy's rampant law breaking.

[sToNED_CAT]

Scot, a spike in Healthcare spending was expected due to people paying premiums (or getting on medicaid) who had not paid premiums before. It's one time for the year 2014. If next year's open enrollment gets another batch of enrollees we'll likely get another spike. It's also likely that people who had been putting off non urgent healthcare and have been unable to access the healthcare system before now may be overconsuming relative to their long term trend because right now they en masse are burning through decades of pent-up demand.

I'm not sure it is just spike. I've read that they predict slightly lower but still high increase in Q2 too. Also shouldn't there be also savings in ER healthcare that would balance the things out? After all one of the main arguments for universal coverage was that ER treatment costs more, and everybody is subsidizing them. So where are the ER savings?

[grumdin]

Changing font size, bolding and repeating ad infinitum doesn't make your fabrication anymore true.

If you're going to go through the effort of creating an alt and then spend this much time here don't you even want to pretend to debate in good faith? You over play your hand on a daily basis at this point.

This.

You asked me to provide citations and I did. Throughout when replying to you I have remained polite and have not thrown around personal insults or implied a breach of board rules on your part. The change on font size was as a result of copying and pasting the quote, the bold emphasis was mine.

[DanteGabriel]

Some have short memories

1) please provide evidence that any of the militia member(s), pleural, 'showed up to threaten Federal Agents'.

2) beyond his failure to pay fees, which is not a criminal offense, please provide citations of Mr. Bundy's rampant law breaking.

No, I'm not playing this game with you any more, where you ignore and spin away the very obviously threatening actions of the militia members and quibble over whether or not failure to pay fees and comply with a court order for sixteen years is "criminal." Bundy's a racist lying deadbeat who rallied a bunch of paranoid armed yahoos to his property instead of paying his fees.

Meanwhile, in Grumdin's Hackworld, no liberals have ever criticized Obama, pedophile recidivism is near 100%, and Benghazi is the greatest cover-up since Watergate.

Find some new whopper to deliver up.

[Suttree]

You asked me to provide citations and I did.

That don't support the point you were trying to make.

You see, the pattern here day after day is for you to make something up and then either disappear or shift the goal posts when called out on your dishonesty by multiple people. More so you are lying yet again by stating you haven't t tossed out any insults and you try to play the victim card? :bs:

Honest question. Why bother? Surely it's better to simply debate in good faith no?

[grumdin]

No, I'm not playing this game with you any more, where you ignore and spin away the very obviously threatening actions of the militia members and quibble over whether or not failure to pay fees and comply with a court order for sixteen years is "criminal." Bundy's a racist lying deadbeat who rallied a bunch of paranoid armed yahoos to his property instead of paying his fees.

Meanwhile, in Grumdin's Hackworld, no liberals have ever criticized Obama, pedophile recidivism is near 100%, and Benghazi is the greatest cover-up since Watergate.

Find some new whopper to deliver up.

I would think more of you if you held yourself to the same standards you demand the conservatives who post on here do. You seem like a good person, disapointing. And yes if I let my tendency to hyperbolic ramblings get in the way of coherent argument I apologize, but I think it's been well established by other posters that I'm an idiot, so allowances have to be made.

[grumdin]

That don't support the point you were trying to make.

You see, the pattern here day after day is for you to make something up and then either disappear or shift the goal posts when called out on your dishonesty by multiple people. More so you are lying yet again by stating you haven't t tossed out any insults and you try to play the victim card? :bs:

Honest question. Why bother? Surely it's better to simply debate in good faith no?

Really? That's where you want to go with this? I stated the demographics in the pools were terrible, i produced, at your request, citations to back that assertion. Instead of crticizing the articles you what? Just accuse me of being a liar, throw around some insults? Which proves you've won or something? OK, honestly, I give up, you win. The ACA is a wonderful and innovative piece of legilative briiliance which is working great.

[DanteGabriel]

I would think more of you if you held yourself to the same standards you demand the conservatives who post on here do. You seem like a good person, disapointing. And yes if I let my tendency to hyperbolic ramblings get in the way of coherent argument I apologize, but I think it's been well established by other posters that I'm an idiot, so allowances have to be made.

I actually don't care what you think, for many reasons. I think quibbling over the use of the word "criminal" is a dumb, petty sideshow. I think attempting to pretend that those armed militia members were not "threatening" federal agents is ridiculous. And your continued water-carrying for Bundy and Benghazi tells me more than some late-coming sorta-admission of "hyperbolic ramblings." Your attempts to paint yourself as some kind of principled independent who is disgusted with both parties are belied by your frequent retreat to the most stale and predictable Fox News talking points.

It's pretty clear that you either lack the desire or ability to debate in good faith. And it's not just hyper-partisans like me and Shryke -- when you've lost someone as fair-minded and discerning as Ini, you really have lost.

[sToNED_CAT]

Scot, what's your favorite solution that works?

The best solution would be to eliminate federal healthcare system completely. Simply take all the money federal government spends on healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid etc.) and redistribute them to the states. States would have to cover old and poor first, but they can choose how, they would be able to implement a system they want. So Massachusetts for example can have single payer and Texas can have some more market oriented solution. Some other state can have public option, or mixed ACA variant etc. If system in one state works well others can learn from it and adapt it , instead of spending decades arguing pros and cons like US Congress. If it doesn't, well, one failed healthcare market of 50 is always better than whole US. Also state referendums would be able to deal most obvious cases of corruption in healthcare system. You can't do the same on federal level.

[grumdin]

I actually don't care what you think, for many reasons. I think quibbling over the use of the word "criminal" is a dumb, petty sideshow. I think attempting to pretend that those armed militia members were not "threatening" federal agents is ridiculous. And your continued water-carrying for Bundy and Benghazi tells me more than some late-coming sorta-admission of "hyperbolic ramblings."

It's pretty clear that you either lack the desire or ability to debate in good faith. And it's not just hyper-partisans like me and Shryke -- when you've lost someone as fair-minded and discerning as Ini, you really have lost.

So you won't back your assertions with facts but you will hound me and any other poster who talk smack without proof? OK well then it's not just me who's unwilling to debate in good faith. Man up and prove your assetion that the militia members threatened federal officials and that Bundy is a criminal.

Btw

definiton of criminal

guilty of crime.

Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.

So what crimes has Bundy been found guilty of? What criminal proceedings have or are currently being taken against him?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Inigima,

Deregulation of health care and banning third party insurance insuring that induivuduals have to pay for their own health care costs. In other words one that, like single payer, is unlikely to pass. As such we're left with a hybrid monstrosity that will make the existing problem worse.

[DanteGabriel]

Ah, now we've reached the "posting dictionary definitions" of your awful, stupid, hacky game -- the game that I already said I wasn't going to play any more.

I forget -- did you post the definition of "recidivism" too, or was that just a definition you invented to prevent having to admit you were talking out of your ass?