Will the real Aegon please stand up?

[Starspear]

We assume that "blood of bed" (or "bloody bed") refers to childbirth because literally every single time it is used in the story, it refers to childbirth. More specifically, nowhere in the story is it ever used to mean anything other than childbirth. It shows a pretty strict economy with the phrase. GRRM wants it to convey a very specific meaning, and uses it as such.

If GRRM were writing historical nonfiction or even historical fiction, your point about the error may have merit. But he's not. He's writing a fantasy series with some basis in historical events. In any case, quibbling over the difference between "bed of blood"/"bloody bed" and "blood-bed" seems like excessive hair-splitting to me. It should be clear that it's the same basic concept being conveyed.

Post #87 is convincing.

But post #99 is not without merit for the following reason: we know of what transpired through Ned's dream. This is the single thing that makes it worthy to be suspect. Could all be true. Could be a mix of memory and fancy.

And as GRRM has a knack for writing with ambiguity, he's trained his readers to be suspicious.

[Modesty Lannister]

We assume that "blood of bed" (or "bloody bed") refers to childbirth because literally every single time it is used in the story, it refers to childbirth. More specifically, nowhere in the story is it ever used to mean anything other than childbirth. It shows a pretty strict economy with the phrase. GRRM wants it to convey a very specific meaning, and uses it as such.

If GRRM were writing historical nonfiction or even historical fiction, your point about the error may have merit. But he's not. He's writing a fantasy series with some basis in historical events. In any case, quibbling over the difference between "bed of blood"/"bloody bed" and "blood-bed" seems like excessive hair-splitting to me. It should be clear that it's the same basic concept being conveyed.

That's right. We assume. That's what I wrote as well. Sincerely, I never saw this term in ASOIAF except in the ToJ scene. I may have missed it, so help me with a quote pls.

Well, I've seen a lot of hair-splitting on many threads. Call me a good mathematician, but I find it necessary to hair-split when it comes to following logic and open mind. These books are a maze of puzzles. One has to use cold logic in order to solve it. You can call it hair-splitting if you like, but I've seen long debates on meanings of certain words on many threads. So, why would this phrase suddenly be a cannon?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's right. We assume. That's what I wrote as well. Sincerely, I never saw this term in ASOIAF except in the ToJ scene. I may have missed it, so help me with a quote pls.

Well, I've seen a lot of hair-splitting on many threads. Call me a good mathematician, but I find it necessary to hair-split when it comes to following logic and open mind. These books are a maze of puzzles. One has to use cold logic in order to solve it. You can call it hair-splitting if you like, but I've seen long debates on meanings of certain words on many threads. So, why would this phrase suddenly be a cannon?

Again: It is never used in any context in the book other than childbirth. If we had guys taking wounds and dying in beds of blood, there would be merit in thinking that it could refer to something else. But the phrase is never used in such a way. It is only used in reference to childbirth, so that's how we take it. Acting as if it could plausibly have an alternative meaning within the story is to completely ignore that nowhere is this alternative meaning ever used.

Mirri tells Dany that she knows the secrets of the "bloody bed," referring to childbirth. Aeron Grejoy thinks of women bringing forth "short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

If you want to argue that it can mean something else, you're free to hunt up any reference to it that doesn't connote childbirth.

[Starspear]

That's right. We assume. That's what I wrote as well. Sincerely, I never saw this term in ASOIAF except in the ToJ scene. I may have missed it, so help me with a quote pls.

Well, I've seen a lot of hair-splitting on many threads. Call me a good mathematician, but I find it necessary to hair-split when it comes to following logic and open mind. These books are a maze of puzzles. One has to use cold logic in order to solve it. You can call it hair-splitting if you like, but I've seen long debates on meanings of certain words on many threads. So, why would this phrase suddenly be a cannon?

I agree with you whole-heartedly. No assumption is a guarantee. Some might be 98% probable, but that's still not rock-solid.

I've seen passages where Varys's lilac breath is used as an argument for a Targ/Blackfyre connection. I personally agree that GRRM uses language with intention and generally am receptive to such arguments such as the lilac-breath... but if we are honest, we can equally be dismissive of such tenuous arguments.

[Starspear]

Again: It is never used in any context in the book other than childbirth. If we had guys taking wounds and dying in beds of blood, there would be merit in thinking that it could refer to something else. But the phrase is never used in such a way. It is only used in reference to childbirth, so that's how we take it. Acting as if it could plausibly have an alternative meaning within the story is to completely ignore that nowhere is this alternative meaning ever used.

It is still an assumption. Fairly solid assumption, but the point is it's an assumption - so author has room to manoeuvre.

But regardless, assuming it's a childbirth death... it is still information known via a dream.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree with you whole-heartedly. No assumption is a guarantee. Some might be 98% probable, but that's still not rock-solid.

At some point though, you need to draw a line in the sand. Not all ideas are of equal value and equal merit. Some are better-argued than others, some have more evidence of others. Some fit the timeline, some don't. I think there's this idea that every theory is worth equal time just because whatever it's arguing has yet to be spat out explicitly, and I don't really agree with that. Some arguments are weak and should be treated as such.

[Modesty Lannister]

Again: It is never used in any context in the book other than childbirth. If we had guys taking wounds and dying in beds of blood, there would be merit in thinking that it could refer to something else. But the phrase is never used in such a way. It is only used in reference to childbirth, so that's how we take it. Acting as if it could plausibly have an alternative meaning within the story is to completely ignore that nowhere is this alternative meaning ever used.

Mirri tells Dany that she knows the secrets of the "bloody bed," referring to childbirth. Aeron Grejoy thinks of women bringing forth "short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

If you want to argue that it can mean something else, you're free to hunt up any reference to it that doesn't connote childbirth.

So, GRRM does use bloody bed as well. How interesting. Thanks for that. And the Greyjoy quote that can also be red as children born out of rape. See? I just did argue another meaning. That's the beauty of having an open mind and sound logic. :-)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It is still an assumption. Fairly solid assumption, but the point is it's an assumption - so author has room to manoeuvre.

But regardless, assuming it's a childbirth death... it is still information known via a dream.

If nothing in the dream can be used as evidence, then throw out the entire thing. If all of it is potentially bullshit, then why include it at all? I see this argument a lot. "Well we can't really use the dream as evidence of anything ..." I typically see it when the dream undermines a person's argument and they'd rather just ignore it.

While it does come from a dream, it's an "old dream" that he's had before. It can't all be blamed on his delirium from the injury.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So, GRRM does use bloody bed as well. How interesting. Thanks for that. And the Greyjoy quote that can also be red as children born out of rape. See? I just did argue another meaning. That's the beauty of having an open mind and sound logic. :-)

Actually there's nothing in the Aeron quote that specifies childbirth out of rape. The way it's written, it's childbirth, period.

[Modesty Lannister]

Actually there's nothing in the Aeron quote that specifies childbirth out of rape. The way it's written, it's childbirth, period.

A quote would help. You probably know where it is better than I do. You just named three different terms you/we assume mean childbirth. What you fail to acknowledge although you said it yourself, we assume. Had GRRM used the term childbirth, we would not have needed to assume.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A quote would help. You probably know where it is better than I do. You just named three different terms you/we assume mean childbirth. What you fail to acknowledge although you said it yourself, we assume. Had GRRM used the term childbirth, we would not have needed to assume.

You really think GRRM is going to say, "Oh yeah Lyanna died in childbirth," even if she did? When doing so pretty much freely gives away probably the greatest mystery in the novels?

I'm not sure why you're saying a quote would help when I gave you the quote. But here it is in perhaps more entirety.

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain.

As you can pretty easily surmise, there is absolutely no distinction given for rape. It conveys childbirth in general.

And if you want the Mirri one:

"Before," Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, "I heard you speak of birthing songs..."

"I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe," Mirri Maz Duur replied.

[Angus Thermopyle]

I just reread Game of Thrones and noticed this line from when Dany was building the pyre for Drogo. Paraphrasing "The third layer was twigs and grass, north to south, from ice to fire." North and South are needed to make the prophecy come true and Rhaegar didn't realize it until he met Lyanna. Hence the subsequent kidnapping/ eloping. After Rhaegar explained the importance of what's to come. So Jon is the third head? Dany must be one. Who the other head is, is up in the air.

[Starspear]

If nothing in the dream can be used as evidence, then throw out the entire thing. If all of it is potentially bullshit, then why include it at all? I see this argument a lot. "Well we can't really use the dream as evidence of anything ..." I typically see it when the dream undermines a person's argument and they'd rather just ignore it.

While it does come from a dream, it's an "old dream" that he's had before. It can't all be blamed on his delirium from the injury.

A dream is just as solid as a vision. Or vice-versa.

The point is that it's a device that gives outs for the author.

And therefore, trying to disprove something using a dream is just as solid as trying to prove something with a vision. The only solution is to be open-minded. Tally probabilities and make one's own mind up.

[Starspear]

I just reread Game of Thrones and noticed this line from when Dany was building the pyre for Drogo. Paraphrasing "The third layer was twigs and grass, north to south, from ice to fire." North and South are needed to make the prophecy come true and Rhaegar didn't realize it until he met Lyanna. Hence the subsequent kidnapping/ eloping. After Rhaegar explained the importance of what's to come. So Jon is the third head? Dany must be one. Who the other head is, is up in the air.

If Dany is one, Jon can't be the 3rd head. She is born after him.

Jon would likely be the 2nd head.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A dream is just as solid as a vision. Or vice-versa.

The point is that it's a device that gives outs for the author.

And therefore, trying to disprove something using a dream is just as solid as trying to prove something with a vision. The only solution is to be open-minded. Tally probabilities and make one's own mind up.

I tallied probabilities and my own mind's made up. Rhaegar was dead by the time Jon was born and thus, if what Dany saw had any basis in actual events, the baby she sees in the House of the Undying can't be Jon, because Rhaegar was never alive to see him. Oh, and Lyanna died of puerperal fever after giving birth.

In other words, the exact same conclusions I'd drawn long before this thread.

[Starspear]

I tallied probabilities and my own mind's made up. Rhaegar was dead by the time Jon was born and thus, if what Dany saw had any basis in actual events, the baby she sees in the House of the Undying can't be Jon, because Rhaegar was never alive to see him. Oh, and Lyanna died of puerperal fever after giving birth.

In other words, the exact same conclusions I'd drawn long before this thread.

That's fair enough.

Except others might be receptive that there's wiggle room regarding Jon's birth.

And having a vision of Rhaegar talking about Ice and Fire in a context which doesn't make sense is also cause for query.

There are other obstacles to AeJon other than Lyanna's potential bed of blood. Such as Elia bearing a son and that son being recognized.

[Modesty Lannister]

You really think GRRM is going to say, "Oh yeah Lyanna died in childbirth," even if she did? When doing so pretty much freely gives away probably the greatest mystery in the novels?

I'm not sure why you're saying a quote would help when I gave you the quote. But here it is in perhaps more entirety.

As you can pretty easily surmise, there is absolutely no distinction given for rape. It conveys childbirth in general.

And if you want the Mirri one:

I knew about Mirri quote. Thanks for Euron quote. I'm not sure why you are so emotional about it. I still maintain bed of blood MAY mean several things INCLUDING childbirth. And why oh why very few people pick up on the use of conditional in English language?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I knew about Mirri quote. Thanks for Euron quote. I'm not sure why you are so emotional about it. I still maintain bed of blood MAY mean several things INCLUDING childbirth. And why oh why very few people pick up on the use of conditional in English language?

Again, for the third time (at least): If GRRM wanted it to convey other meanings in the text, he would use it for things other than childbirth. But he doesn't. Why doesn't he? Because it actually refers to a specific thing in the story, and that specific thing is childbirth. This "MAY mean several things INCLUDING childbirth" again misses the point that nowhere in the books is the phrase used for anything but childbirth. If these several things exist in the story, why hasn't the phrase been used for them up to this point?

I'm not getting "emotional" so much as frustrated that I have to keep repeating myself. I don't think anything I'm saying is that confusing or complicated.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And having a vision of Rhaegar talking about Ice and Fire in a context which doesn't make sense is also cause for query.

I'm not sure why it's out of the question that Rhaegar got it wrong or misunderstood the significance that ice and fire might have had in the prophecy. It's easy to look back on it and think Rhaegar was talking out of his ass because we know that Jon actually fits the bill. But at the time, perhaps Rhaegar hadn't figured that part out yet and as such thought it did pertain to Aegon. When I see the vision, I just think Rhaegar screwed up and/or changed his mind, not that it's cause to doubt what we're seeing or assume it's not Aegon.

[Winterfell is Burning]

As for how old Jon was, in the beginning of AGOT we learn Robb was 14. It is assumed Jon is slightly younger. However, when he talks to Benjen Stark about joining the NW, Jon says:

One must wonder why does maester Luwin have a need to say that. Is it because Jon looks older than 14?

The obvious answer is that Luwin is talking about it in the psychological rather than the physical sense.