Will the real Aegon please stand up?

[Starspear]

Yes, and judging by the names of his children it's plain obvious he expected the 3rd child to be a girl. I have no idea what would his reaction be if he knew he had another son, or that he had twins of any gender.

You do realize you're talking about the same man that thought that it was a good idea to run off with the daughter of a Lord Paramount and engaged to another and leave his increasingly unstable father to handle the situation, right?

Because you have Bill Murray as an avatar, I will not say anything but kind words to you, Bill.

[Starspear]

Bed of blood/bloody bed is a euphemism for childbirth, that could mean that she died even 10 days after childbirth.

This is like the 5th or 6th time you are saying this. What's your point?

You do realize I've addressed this more than once?

But here again for your pleasure: Bed of blood is a likely euphemism for death in childbirth. It is the best assumption, but still an assumption... unless of course, I've missed the references to all deaths in childbirth as beds of blood.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

- Needs a third so needs new woman... but then he looks to Daenerys. And I think this is GRRM telling us GRRM is the 3rd head.

This again. Rhaegar looking at her is what she shaw that doesn't mean that she is right, after all she was high at the time.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

This is like the 5th or 6th time you are saying this. What's your point?

You do realize I've addressed this more than once?

But here again for your pleasure: Bed of blood is a likely euphemism for death in childbirth. It is the best assumption, but still an assumption... unless of course, I've missed the references to all deaths in childbirth as beds of blood.

The freaking point is that Rhaegar didn't had the time to be there at Jon's birth near Ned's arrival.

Please give me one quote that bed of blood/bloody bed has been used for something different than childbirth.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

Please lay off the personal snipings here. Several posts have been deleted. If more shows up, warnings will be given out and the thread will be closed.

Cheers.

[/mod hat]

[Consigliere]

Yes, a valid assumption is that in Rhaegar's mind:

- Rhaenys was the first head

- Aegon the second

Elia can't have children

- Needs a third so needs new woman... but then he looks to Daenerys. And I think this is GRRM telling us GRRM is the 3rd head.

Also, Rhaegar refers to Aegon and says of Aegon, his is the song of Ice and Fire. Why say such a thing? We'll naturally not know till GRRM explicitly says what that means.

And exactly if Elia nearly died, the conversation seems out of place. So this does not work against some other assumptions this thread is following.

He believed Aegon to be TPtwP so when he says Aegon is the song of ice and fire it is in reference to this prophecy.

“He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

Remember that this is a vision and this scene may not have played out exactly as it is shown in the vision. When he says that there needs to be one more he looks up. It is ambiguous whether he was speaking to Dany or Elia.

[Consigliere]

This is like the 5th or 6th time you are saying this. What's your point?

You do realize I've addressed this more than once?

But here again for your pleasure: Bed of blood is a likely euphemism for death in childbirth. It is the best assumption, but still an assumption... unless of course, I've missed the references to all deaths in childbirth as beds of blood.

This is a post by Ygrain made in one of the R+L=J threads

Concerning "bed of blood", here you go all the occurences of the term, or similar ones:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT)

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. (Catelyn AGOT)

Women birth children in blood and pain, and die. (Damphair in Theon, ACOK)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

As you can see, all references to bed of blood/bloody bed are used to denote childbirth.

[Starspear]

This is a post by Ygrain made in one of the R+L=J threads

As you can see, all references to bed of blood/bloody bed are used to denote childbirth.

Thanks and noted.

[Starspear]

Jon’s birth from GRRM quote (link: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040) : All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

This is not exact information. Use of the word “probably” and “thereabouts”. 8 or 9 months. Could be 9 months and a couple of weeks. Could be 7 months and a couple of weeks.

Jon can therefore be born:

- born around time of Sack of King’s Landing (disproves AeJon)
- 1 month after the Sack of King’s Landing (disproves AeJon)
- A few weeks before the Sack of King’s Landing (sustains Aejon) .

What we know:

- Rhaegar dies a couple of weeks before the Sack of King’s Landing.

In theory, it is possible for Jon to have been born right before Rhaegar dies.

If Jon is born after, then clearly Rhaegar is dead by the time of his birth.

282 AC: A comet is seen about KL on the night that Aegon was conceived (AeJon). Conception is fertilization. 8-10 months before birth assuming no premature birth.
282 AC: Elia’s son is born. Only way the comet refers to her son is if conception is in early year.
283 AC: Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar dies. Rhaella in early stages of pregnancy.
283 AC: Sack of King’s Landing
284 AC: Daenerys birth in Dragonstone. Chapter 3, AGOT: Rhaella gives birth to Daenerys nine moons after their midnight flight from KL. Rhaella death shortly after due to complications.

It is still ambiguous when Jon's birth takes place.

Lastly, if Jon is AeJon (see comet and conception in 282 AC), then it would look something like this [months can be moved insofar as they overlap to give 282 AC (comet of KL); 283 AC (Jon Birth); 284 AC (Dany birth)]:

- AeJon is conceived in 282 which means a birth in 283. Let’s say December 282. Jon Birth around August-Sept 283. Daenerys birth around May-June 284.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

- A few weeks before the Sack of King’s Landing (sustains Aejon) .

How could Jon been born a few weeks before the sack and Lyanna dying in a bed of blood almost a month later?

[Starspear]

It was Elia, GRRM confirmed it numerous times.

Do you have one of the SSM links to this? I've searched but found nothing yet.

[Starspear]

How could Jon been born a few weeks before the sack and Lyanna dying in a bed of blood almost a month later?

Potential answers:

- Lyanna was nursing another child than hers (maybe Elia's).

- Bed of blood was dream of Ned's; not actual.

Naturally, if Lyanna died in childbirth, AeJon is completely dismissed. Until GRRM decideds to give fixed answers, we just have mystery.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Potential answers:

- Lyanna was nursing another child than hers (maybe Elia's).

- Bed of blood was dream of Ned's; not actual.

Naturally, if Lyanna died in childbirth, AeJon is completely dismissed. Until GRRM decideds to give fixed answers, we just have mystery.

How Elia's child could be in ToJ? Through Ashara? Who Elia was holding? What nursing has to do with giving birth? Because again bed of blood/bloody bed is about childbirth.

So we reach to the point that we are dismissing the evidence because we don't like them?

[Starspear]

How Elia's child could be in ToJ? Through Ashara? Who Elia was holding? What nursing has to do with giving birth? Because again bed of blood/bloody bed is about childbirth.

So we reach to the point that we are dismissing the evidence because we don't like them?

Here's a note from Lyanna's wiki of ice and fire (from chapter 29 of AGOT):

Ned found Lyanna inside the tower in a "bed of blood", dying. When Eddard recalls the conflict in a dream, there is an additional detail. While the combatants clash, Lyanna screams. The dream then switches to a storm of blue rose petals, blowing across a blood-streaked sky. It is uncertain if these details are accurate memories.^[28]

Here's what GRRM says about Ashara:

I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

link: http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/1040

The only link between nursing and giving birth, is that the body of a pregnant woman is ready to nurse.

And realize that nothing is being dismissed. Read my words, I'm quite honest that the theory becomes dismissed once we have factual proof, instead of reasonable assumptions.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

SNIP

First lets be clear this is not a theory, a theory has evidences. A new mother can nurse but how it is possible for Lyanna to nurse Elia's child long after Jon's birth and still being in a bed of blood? Who Elia was holding?

You use wiki as your evidence? :lmao:

[Starspear]

You realize the wikia used is the same database used for this forum (asoiaf.westeros.org)?

You realize that there is a source to the quote posted. A source directly from the books?

Let the readers judge for themselves.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You realize the wikia used is the same database used for this forum (asoiaf.westeros.org)?

You realize that there is a source to the quote posted. A source directly from the books?

Let the readers judge for themselves.

Wtong, the wiki is written by fans. Please give the the actual quote from the books because afaik there isn't in the books but it's someone's interpression of what the text says.

[Starspear]

Wtong, the wiki is written by fans. Please give the the actual quote from the books because afaik there isn't in the books but it's someone's interpression of what the text says.

The wikia is fairly reliable. Not perfect. But useful. The point is that there is a reference to the source.

Ned recalls Lyanna's bed of blood and the screams at the ToJ in a dream. Dream.

[Modesty Lannister]

I'm not saying I'm buying your theory, but I'm keeping an open mind.

As for how old Jon was, in the beginning of AGOT we learn Robb was 14. It is assumed Jon is slightly younger. However, when he talks to Benjen Stark about joining the NW, Jon says:

“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”

One must wonder why does maester Luwin have a need to say that. Is it because Jon looks older than 14?

We all assume bed of blood = childbirth. However, the correct medieval term for childbirth would be blood-bed. Why would GRRM make such error when he is expert on medieval history? Bed of blood can mean anything. It can mean menstrual blood or a blood from a wound. So, as things stand now, we only know Lyanna died. Cause still unknown. Ned offers us a bit of a possible insight in AGOT though.

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”

Did Rhaegar allow Lyanna to carry a sword? If Arya reminds Ned of Lyanna, it is highly probable that she did carry a sword during the time she spent with Rhaegar. Can we go as far as to assume she took part in a real battle? I don't know, but it's there, sitting as a possibility.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We all assume bed of blood = childbirth. However, the correct medieval term for childbirth would be blood-bed. Why would GRRM make such error when he is expert on medieval history? Bed of blood can mean anything. It can mean menstrual blood or a blood from a wound. So, as things stand now, we only know Lyanna died. Cause still unknown. Ned offers us a bit of a possible insight in AGOT though.

We assume that "blood of bed" (or "bloody bed") refers to childbirth because literally every single time it is used in the story, it refers to childbirth. More specifically, nowhere in the story is it ever used to mean anything other than childbirth. It shows a pretty strict economy with the phrase. GRRM wants it to convey a very specific meaning, and uses it as such.

If GRRM were writing historical nonfiction or even historical fiction, your point about the error may have merit. But he's not. He's writing a fantasy series with some basis in historical events. In any case, quibbling over the difference between "bed of blood"/"bloody bed" and "blood-bed" seems like excessive hair-splitting to me. It should be clear that it's the same basic concept being conveyed.