Will the real Aegon please stand up?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

From GRRM (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040):

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months OR [my capitalization] thereabouts."

As per my post #53... will be looking into to see variables and whether potential overlap. There is wiggle room here.

And? I still don't see anything here suggesting that Rhaegar was alive when Jon was born. Even if you want to fudge the numbers and say that he was (which he wasn't), there's still the issue of him leaving the Tower, going all the way back to King's Landing, getting the army together, marching to the Trident and then dying. There's just no way for him to have been there. And if Jon was born before Rhaegar left the Tower (which for Rhaegar to have been there, he'd've had to have been), he'd be 1. more than 8-9 months older than Dany and 2. probably visibly older than Robb.

8-9 months is obviously the most concrete parameter GRRM is willing to go on the record with. Why on earth should we deviate from that?

[Starspear]

And? We know that Jon was born at the time of the Sack when Rhaegar was already dead.

You can repeat this as many times as you like. You say it as if I am ignoring this. Go and read my postings. See my priority for the truth first and foremost. I don't care for my "theory" if it doesn't withstand the facts.... but I've yet to see a satisfactory timeline... which I'm currently working out for myself.

[Starspear]

And? I still don't see anything here suggesting that Rhaegar was alive when Jon was born. Even if you want to fudge the numbers and say that he was (which he wasn't), there's still the issue of him leaving the Tower, going all the way back to King's Landing, getting the army together, marching to the Trident and then dying. There's just no way for him to have been there. And if Jon was born before Rhaegar left the Tower (which for Rhaegar to have been there, he'd've had to have been), he'd be 1. more than 8-9 months older than Dany and 2. probably visibly older than Robb.

8-9 months is obviously the most concrete parameter GRRM is willing to go on the record with. Why on earth should we deviate from that?

See my post #63.

I didn't post link to PROVE my theory. I posted it as, as per my CAVEAT, the theory is underwork.

If anything, the work will provide insight into whether the vision was other than recorded history.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You can repeat this as many times as you like. You say it as if I am ignoring this. Go and read my postings. See my priority for the truth first and foremost. I don't care for my "theory" if it doesn't withstand the facts.... but I've yet to see a satisfactory timeline... which I'm currently working out for myself.

"I've yet to see a timeline that adheres to the preconceived opinion I already have, so I'm just going to ignore it."

[Starspear]

"I've yet to see a timeline that adheres to the preconceived opinion I already have, so I'm just going to ignore it."

You're being dense.

I'm talking about a chart. Something laid out in a graph or in bullet form. Right now, everything is in paragraph form.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You can repeat this as many times as you like. You say it as if I am ignoring this. Go and read my postings. See my priority for the truth first and foremost. I don't care for my "theory" if it doesn't withstand the facts.... but I've yet to see a satisfactory timeline... which I'm currently working out for myself.

You make your own timeline. How the heck Rhaegar went from ToJ to KL and then at the Trident and till being with Lyanna who was at a bed of blood when Ned (who has been at the Trident then to KL then at SE then back at KL and then he went to ToJ) arrived here when, yet again, Lyanna was in a bed of blood?

[Ingelheim]

The timeline is the timeline. Rhaegar was dead before Jon was born. End of the story.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You're being dense.

Name calling is low and tacky.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

See my post #63.

I didn't post link to PROVE my theory. I posted it as, as per my CAVEAT, the theory is underwork.

If anything, the work will provide insight into whether the vision was other than recorded history.

What is there to work out? By the author's own timeline, Rhaegar was dead by the time Jon was born and was away from the Tower for, I would guess, at least a few weeks before he even died (accounting for travel back to the capital. time to get the army together, time to march to the Trident, etc.). He can't have been there to see baby Jon because he was dead by the time Jon was born. Ergo, the baby in the vision that Dany sees is not Jon, if it is in fact meant to approximate something that actually happened.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You're being dense.

I'm talking about a chart. Something laid out in a graph or in bullet form. Right now, everything is in paragraph form.

Does it matter how it's laid out so long as the parameters are there? Does adding a bullet to all of this make it any more "official"?

• Dany's conception: ~2 weeks before the Sack, based on Chelsted burning and the last Hand only serving 2 weeks

Rhaegar's death: ~1-2 weeks before the Sack, judging by the fact that Rhaella was already pregnant with Dany when she was evacuated after the Trident

Jon's birth: ~0-1 months after the Sack

Dany's birth: ~9 months after the Sack

There, bullets.

[Starspear]

What is there to work out? By the author's own timeline, Rhaegar was dead by the time Jon was born and was away from the Tower for, I would guess, at least a few weeks before he even died (accounting for travel back to the capital. time to get the army together, time to march to the Trident, etc.). He can't have been there to see baby Jon because he was dead by the time Jon was born. Ergo, the baby in the vision that Dany sees is not Jon, if it is in fact meant to approximate something that actually happened.

That's fine. And therefore you can completely ignore this thread.

As per my CAVEAT. It's right now in semi-crackpot territory, but the thread is leading to good pieces of info... such as this from GRRM:

I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So,

• The timeline is off.
  
• The visions are off(I think it was Ran that confirmed that it was Elia at Citadel but I cannot find the quote)
  

What is left?

[Starspear]

• So the timeline is off.

The visions are off(I think it was Ran that confirmed that it was Elia at Citadel but I cannot find the quote)

What is left?

Well, I will waste my time nonetheless.

But if you truly want to come up with something... why is Aegon (of Elia) a song of Ice and Fire? Why does GRRM go through the hassle of informing us know how weak and sickly Elia is, and how childbirth affects her?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well, I will waste my time nonetheless.

But if you truly want to come up with something... why is Aegon (of Elia) a song of Ice and Fire? Why does GRRM go through the hassle of informing us know how weak and sickly Elia is, and how childbirth affects her?

Rhaegar was wrong before. So, if he read something about the Song of Ice and Fire and TPTWP it wouldn't be a shock that he thought Aegon been the one.

He mentions Elia's health to show us that she couldn't had anymore children and he had to look elsewher for his third head. If Elia's child was stillborn who was the one that she was raising?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Lyanna died in a bed of blood, meaning at or near the time of childbirth. Also at the time of Jon's birth Rhaegar was not at KL, most likely he was already dead and so was Elia. How could they have Jon if they were dead? Also GRRM told that Elia's Aegon had Valyrian features and he was almost a year older than Jon, I think that Cat would had noticed the difference between a 1yo and a newborn.

Think Jane Seymour, she died of fever after childbirth too. Wasn't left in a bed of blood though

[Mladen]

But if you truly want to come up with something... why is Aegon (of Elia) a song of Ice and Fire? Why does GRRM go through the hassle of informing us know how weak and sickly Elia is, and how childbirth affects her?

Aegon is not PTWP, Rhaegar just thought he was, and given that Rhaegar first though himself to be PTWP, and later Aegon, one can conclude that his opinion doesn't make it certain.

As for Elia's sickness, it is very simple, and it is said in the part of the HotU visions with Rhaegar and Elia. She couldn't have had anymore children, and Rhaegar explicitly said "the dragon must have 3 heads". This is probably the reason of going after Lyanna.

ninjaa's by JQC :)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Think Jane Seymour, she died of fever after childbirth too. Wasn't left in a bed of blood though

Bed of blood/bloody bed is a euphemism for childbirth, that could mean that she died even 10 days after childbirth.

[Winterfell is Burning]

It's possible that Rhaegar changed his mind, got it wrong, or failed to grasp what role "ice and fire" might actually play in the whole thing. It might not have occurred to him at first that "ice and fire" might be actual components in his kid's genetic makeup.

Yes, and judging by the names of his children it's plain obvious he expected the 3rd child to be a girl. I have no idea what would his reaction be if he knew he had another son, or that he had twins of any gender.

And hence Rhaegar comes off as shallow and insipid for someone described as exceedingly intelligent.

Rhaegar Targaryen: reads a prophecy; automatically assumes he is part of it; makes a baby with Elia and immediately says his son's song is of Ice and Fire (because of prophecy). Captain Fantasy Emo.

You do realize you're talking about the same man that thought that it was a good idea to run off with the daughter of a Lord Paramount and engaged to another and leave his increasingly unstable father to handle the situation, right?

[Consigliere]

Well, I will waste my time nonetheless.

But if you truly want to come up with something... why is Aegon (of Elia) a song of Ice and Fire? Why does GRRM go through the hassle of informing us know how weak and sickly Elia is, and how childbirth affects her?

We don't know that he was the song of ice and fire. What we do know is that Aemon first believed Rhaegar to be TPtwP and later Rhaegar believed it to be Aegon. Aemon, before his death, concluded that it was Dany.

Elia nearly died giving birth to Aegon and the maesters said she would not be able to have another child. From the HoTU vision, Rhaegar said that there needs to be one more. If Elia was unable to have another child then Rhaegar would have had to look elsewhere.

[Starspear]

We don't know that he was the song of ice and fire. What we do know is that Aemon first believed Rhaegar to be TPtwP and later Rhaegar believed it to be Aegon. Aemon, before his death, concluded that it was Dany.

Elia nearly died giving birth to Aegon and the maesters said she would not be able to have another child. From the HoTU vision, Rhaegar said that there needs to be one more. If Elia was unable to have another child then Rhaegar would have had to look elsewhere.

Yes, a valid assumption is that in Rhaegar's mind:

- Rhaenys was the first head

- Aegon the second

Elia can't have children

- Needs a third so needs new woman... but then he looks to Daenerys. And I think this is GRRM telling us GRRM is the 3rd head.

Also, Rhaegar refers to Aegon and says of Aegon, his is the song of Ice and Fire. Why say such a thing? We'll naturally not know till GRRM explicitly says what that means.

And exactly if Elia nearly died, the conversation seems out of place. So this does not work against some other assumptions this thread is following.