Heresy 113

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 113, this week’s edition of thefast moving thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy started off nearly two and a half years ago as The Wall the Watch and a Heresy, questioning the assumptions that the Wall and the Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that its all going to finish up with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai and riding a fire-breathing dragon to victory over the icy hordes.

The scepticism is still present but in general terms the thread has expanded to encompass the whole business of Ice and Fire [as distinct from the Game of Thrones], still concentrating on the Wall, what lies beyond it and the Stark connection to Winter, but striving at the same time to understand the conflict as a whole.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

To the uninitiated, stepping into our world might at first appear confusing, but what we are really engaged in is an exercise in chaos theory. While most threads concentrate on a particular issue or theory, we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, to try and reach an understanding of what may be happening through the resulting collision of ideas.

A little more controversially we also look closely at what’s being revealed in the show. While its argued and quite rightly that the show is “different”, its differences necessarily arise through the translation from a written to a visual medium. The controversial business of Craster’s sons, “revealed” in the latest episode for example was canon all along, not a spoiler: “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.” All that changed in the show was the manner of presenting it. But nevertheless, there are other tantalizing clues…

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Urrax2]

...A little more controversially we also look closely at what’s being revealed in the show. While its argued and quite rightly that the show is “different”, its differences necessarily arise through the translation from a written to a visual medium. The controversial business of Craster’s sons, “revealed” in the latest episode for example was canon all along, not a spoiler: “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.” All that changed in the show was the manner of presenting it. But nevertheless, there are other tantalizing clues…

For newcomers, I'll note that some of us heretics don't agree that the Others (popsicles) are/were Craster's sons, nor that such a transformation is what was depicted in show episode 404.

[JNR]

Which indicates that they are indeed telling Martin's story because they are willing to make right what they did wrong, hence that meeting to see where each major and secondary character is going.

I do think D&D certainly deeply respect GRRM's vision and intentions. He is far less likely than they to screw up with his world; he is after all the world's leading authority on it. If they can lean on his story, his plotting, they will.

But I also think they are already introducing substantial changes and those changes will have a huge effect overall. I think we are going to see a lot of them (and indeed already have been) and there is simply not going to be a way to walk them back, and the books and show will remain out of sync.

Or, as GRRM himself put it

Martin writes one episode per season, and is an executive producer, but says that "ultimately that's their baby and the books are my baby."

But, it's possible that a "butterfly effect" could occur, he says. "Small change can produce larger changes later on."

Already there are two big departures he says -- on the show, one character, whose tongue is torn out with pincers (which doesn't happen in the books) becomes a big character by book 3. The scene in the show where Drogo confronts Mhago and rips out his tongue, also doesn't happen in the books -- he's still alive in the books, and hasn't been dealt with.

"What am I going to do, go back and retroactively write Book 1?" he asks. "Maybe I should." The crowd laughs.

That situation just got a great deal worse in the case of the Others... IMO.

Obviously we'll never know for sure until GRRM pulls back the curtain on this particular mystery in the books!

I basically agree with you about this:

To confound the problem is that Martin, unlike Rowling, does not plot his novels meticulously. He himself cannot always say 'ah no guys you can't put that in because if you do it will mess up the end because this guy/gal/thing needs to be there or won't be there' all the time with every aspect of the story. He knows he started in NJ and he will (eventually) reach LA but he doesn't yet know who or how he will get him there for every single character,only the major ones.

That's true.

...but I am still quite sure he does know, and always knew, the true origin of the Others. I am sure that aspect of the books really was done very meticulously right from the start, right down to tiny details. The way he has handled all that is one of the things that most impresses me about the entire series so far; it is just... an order of magnitude slicker and more original than anything similar in other series I could name.

[JNR]

Where?

That's a still photo. If you watch the YT version, you can see the Other's right foot leaving a track around 1:28. It's hard to see, but it's there.

[comicwolf]

I think that could be written off as a production goof rather than an indication of any fundamental difference between show and book walkers though no?

[Urrax2]

That's a still photo. If you watch the YT version, you can see the Other's right foot leaving a track around 1:28. It's hard to see, but it's there.

I see some snow blowing but no tracks. Same for the Big Popsicle. Contrast the heavy tracks left by the horse. Maybe they CGI'd out the popsicles' tracks and the one you mention was a goof.

[comicwolf]

Great minds Urrax ;)

[Urrax2]

Great minds Urrax ;)

:agree:

[Black Crow]

For newcomers, I'll note that some of us heretics don't agree that the Others (popsicles) are/were Craster's sons, nor that such a transformation is what was depicted in show episode 404.

And I similarly feel bound to point out that in the books we are told that the white walkers are Crasters sons, that those involved in the making of the show say that transformation was depicted in the show and Ran and Linda likewise. :cool4:

[JNR]

I see some snow blowing but no tracks. Same for the Big Popsicle. Contrast the heavy tracks left by the horse. Maybe they CGI'd out the popsicles' tracks and the one you mention was a goof.

Yes, the horse tracks are clear. To see the white walker's tracks I had to blow up the YT to full-screen and keep my eyes right on its feet. The foot impressions left in the snow don't go through to the ground, which is what makes them harder to see. I can also spot a little snow being kicked up.

[Rooseman]

And Scarlett O'Hara had only one baby.

He has the blue shiny eyes, he doesn't wear Night's Watch black, he doesn't have a scarf, he doesn't have black hands, he doesn't ride an elk, there are no crows, he's an Other and not a dead man, and he doesn't do anything that Coldhands does in the books.

Sure, he could still be Coldhands but a different show-version... but I don't see any reason to assume that this is the case, when everything points away from it.

[JNR]

Ran and Linda likewise. :cool4:

I do think the baby is transformed into an Other on the show because I can't imagine why it would have been taken all that vast distance to the Heart of Winter, otherwise.

Ran and Linda, however, are an interesting pair of authorities. They certainly have access to more and better information than we do, and yet... Ran still seems to think Jon and Dany will fall in love, and this is signified by the blue flower in the ice wall and its sweetness.

How many of us believe that, I wonder...

[Urrax2]

...Sure, he could still be Coldhands but a different show-version... but I don't see any reason to assume that this is the case, when everything points away from it.

Oh, I agree with that. But I'm beginning to think D&D will change anything.

[JNR]

He has the blue shiny eyes, he doesn't wear Night's Watch black, he doesn't have a scarf, he doesn't have black hands, he doesn't ride an elk, there are no crows, he's an Other and not a dead man, and he doesn't do anything that Coldhands does in the books.

:agree: and this seems a very strong case.

[Urrax2]

I do think the baby is transformed into an Other on the show because I can't imagine why it would have been taken all that vast distance to the Heart of Winter, otherwise. ...

To extract its life force, for purposes not yet known.

[nedhed]

Hey guys, I’ve really been enjoying the discussion about what we may or may not know about Craster’s boys and popsicilization in general. But I think I’ve lost sight of how it relates to a more general theory of Jon’s role in sorting out the ice side of the overarching conflict. To cut to the chase- what does it mean- or help confirm- if Craster’s boys are, indeed, popsicilized?

First, I suppose it confirms that at least some popsicles were originally born of two humans, e.g., Craster and a Crasterwife.

Second, if we assume that Craster has special blood, then it helps confirm that popsicles can only be made out of human babies with special blood, i.e., “changelings.”

So, how does that tie back to Jon? Do we assume that Jon, as a First Men descendent, or more importantly, Stark, has special blood like Craster (or his wives), and therefore is in a unique position to consort with the popsicles?

Assuming that’s the case, wouldn’t it just mean that the “reveal” means that Jon’s children- like Craster’s- would be candidates for popsicilization?

How does that help him sort out the ice side of the equation? Does it put him in position to negotiate a bargain with the popsicles that he will be their new baby-donor?

[Cold Hands warm heart]

We are trapped in a ping pong game of thrones. The show producers ask for future updates, don't get them and put their own interpretation in, then are told what the "writer" was going for and make the change accordingly. I can imagine GRRM being possessive of his work, thats' natural. But there is no better incentive as when you see something with your own eyes, even when rose colored glass is a shade of blue.

[Black Crow]

Hey guys, I’ve really been enjoying the discussion about what we may or may not know about Craster’s boys and popsicilization in general. But I think I’ve lost sight of how it relates to a more general theory of Jon’s role in sorting out the ice side of the overarching conflict. To cut to the chase- what does it mean- or help confirm- if Craster’s boys are, indeed, popsicilized?

First, I suppose it confirms that at least some popsicles were originally born of two humans, e.g., Craster and a Crasterwife.

Second, if we assume that Craster has special blood, then it helps confirm that popsicles can only be made out of human babies with special blood, i.e., “changelings.”

So, how does that tie back to Jon? Do we assume that Jon, as a First Men descendent, or more importantly, Stark, has special blood like Craster (or his wives), and therefore is in a unique position to consort with the popsicles?

Assuming that’s the case, wouldn’t it just mean that the “reveal” means that Jon’s children- like Craster’s- would be candidates for popsicilization?

How does that help him sort out the ice side of the equation? Does it put him in position to negotiate a bargain with the popsicles that he will be their new baby-donor?

I think that ATS is right in suggesting a connection between the Starks and the white walkers. Its not a question of Jon being a candidate for carrying on Craster's line so to speak, but rather about his confronting an ancient family curse.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

(Re posting from last thread... didn't see that BC had opened 113.)

...I noticed in the interview with Cogman that they actually name the woman holding Craster's 101st son as Morag and further that she, despite her apparent age, is actually one of Craster's Daughter-Wives. Seems to me that they are building up the importance of the wives. And I agree with you (and Wolfmaid and Feather) that it is the wives, at least the oldest ones, that are in charge....

.

Interesting... that name choice does appear to fall right in line with my observations about the "heavenly queen" symbolism built into Gilly's name and character... as well as Dyah, Ferny, et al. (Though the garden/horticultural meanings may be too hard to translate for the screen.)

Honestly, it is rather fascinating to see the significance of the wives confirmed in these ways. When I raised the issue last fall here in Heresy, I did so in full recognition that it was going to seem a bit hare-brained at first - if only because the commonly accepted view of Craster and his Keep had not been thoroughly questioned at the time. It is satisfying, too, of course. The whole reason I set off in pursuit of the theory was because it seemed evident that Martin had put an unusual amount of thought and planning into Gilly - her name, role, and symbolism. So I can't say I'm entirely surprised, but it is fun and gratifying to see how it gets played out.

That said - I still don't necessarily expect the show to follow through with the emphasis on these women... unless Martin's plan for the larger story includes a significant, game changing reveal in which they are featured in some way (ie, play a big role). Which may happen - though the primary candidate for that role, in my mind, would seem to be Gilly. Otherwise, Craster would seem to me to have been an ideal villain-type character on his own, and building up the characters of these women would appear to add unnecessary complexity for the purposes of the show.

.

[nedhed]

I think that ATS is right in suggesting a connection between the Starks and the white walkers. Its not a question of Jon being a candidate for carrying on Craster's line so to speak, but rather about his confronting an ancient family curse.

But how does this turn on whether Craster's boys are popsicilized, as opposed to just sacrificed? I don't see how the "reveal" moves the ball any further in this direction. The big assumption we're making is that Jon and Craster share some sort of family/blood tie, and therefore Jon/the Starks share the Craster curse. But regardless of whether the boys are actually tunred into WWs, it's clear that Craster made some sort of deal with the devil, much like we're assuming an old Stark did, so isn't that enough to get us to the point of reasonably supposing that Jon will have to confront an ancient family curse?