Heresy 113

[JNR]

That said - I still don't necessarily expect the show to follow through with the emphasis on these women...

I don't either. It sure doesn't seem like it lately.

Instead of Craster's wives being subtle manipulators who are secretly in charge, per Heresy, they are the helpless victims of the mutineers. They have bruises on their faces. The mutineers say things like "Fuck 'em 'til they're dead" while raping the wives repeatedly and brutally. Not a whole lot of subtlety here.

Meanwhile, the wives put up no apparent resistance to any of this. Their primary verbal contribution is "a gift for the gods, a gift for the gods," chanted in unison about the last baby, as if they were all brainwashed members of a cult.

I have to think Show Ygritte would consider all these women, except Gilly, blatant departures from what wildling women are supposed to be: fierce, independent, capable, competent. It is unimaginable to me she would act like this, in such a situation.

[Black Crow]

But how does this turn on whether Craster's boys are popsicilized, as opposed to just sacrificed? I don't see how the "reveal" moves the ball any further in this direction. The big assumption we're making is that Jon and Craster share some sort of family/blood tie, and therefore Jon/the Starks share the Craster curse. But regardless of whether the boys are actually tunred into WWs, it's clear that Craster made some sort of deal with the devil, much like we're assuming an old Stark did, so isn't that enough to get us to the point of reasonably supposing that Jon will have to confront an ancient family curse?

The point of Craster's sons in both the book and the show is that they are revealed as human changelings, not a separate race.

[Tyryan Lannister]

On this whole topic of babies into WW, I can't help nut get the feeling that in the end, it really won't matter how the WW come to be. Rather, the important part is that the WW are actually "created" in the first place, and that the end goal vis-a-vis Bran/Jon(/Mel/Stannis?) is stopping the source of the creation

[comicwolf]

I don't either. It sure doesn't seem like it lately.

Instead of Craster's wives being subtle manipulators who are secretly in charge, per Heresy, they are the helpless victims of the mutineers. They have bruises on their faces. The mutineers say things like "Fuck 'em 'til they're dead" while raping the wives repeatedly and brutally. Not a whole lot of subtlety here.

Meanwhile, the wives put up no apparent resistance to any of this. Their primary verbal contribution is "a gift for the gods, a gift for the gods," chanted in unison about the last baby, as if they were all brainwashed members of a cult.

I have to think Show Ygritte would consider all these women, except Gilly, blatant departures from what wildling women are supposed to be: fierce, independent, capable, competent. It is unimaginable to me she would act like this, in such a situation.

But I think Craster's wives are of a different breed than other wildling women, inasmuch as them being aware of, and perhaps understanding, the ancient deals, or at least Craster's deal, and not sharing the same fear as the other wildlings do of the WW. Which I think was what the show was doing with that "Gift for the Gods" chant, i.e. displaying a certain reverence for and understanding of the WWs that isn't there among those following Mance.

[alienarea]

If we look at changelings, what about Jon and Ramsay Snow? And, because he share the eye-color with Ramsay, Roose Bolton?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I don't either. It sure doesn't seem like it lately.

Instead of Craster's wives being subtle manipulators who are secretly in charge, per Heresy, they are the helpless victims of the mutineers. They have bruises on their faces. The mutineers say things like "Fuck 'em 'til they're dead" while raping the wives repeatedly and brutally. Not a whole lot of subtlety here.

Meanwhile, the wives put up no apparent resistance to any of this. Their primary verbal contribution is "a gift for the gods, a gift for the gods," chanted in unison about the last baby, as if they were all brainwashed members of a cult.

I have to think Show Ygritte would consider all these women, except Gilly, blatant departures from what wildling women are supposed to be: fierce, independent, capable, competent. It is unimaginable to me she would act like this, in such a situation.

See, that's what I'm talking about. Taking the undefined, the mystery and the ambiguity of the original tale - and nailing it down hard. Another example that leaves me wondering about screenwriters painting themselves into corners - an inevitable challenge when you're making an adaptation of an unfinished original. And that, more than anything, is how these stories will be forced to diverge, I'm guessing...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The point of Craster's sons in both the book and the show is that they are revealed as human changelings, not a separate race.

Human changelings, or half-breeds. I'm not entirely sure the women of the Keep aren't old powers themselves.

[comicwolf]

See, that's what I'm talking about. Taking the undefined, the mystery and the ambiguity of the original tale - and nailing it down hard. Another example that leaves me wondering about screenwriters painting themselves into corners - an inevitable challenge when you're making an adaptation of an unfinished original. And that, more than anything, is how these stories will be forced to diverge, I'm guessing...

And I'm sure D&D would probably agree with you for the most part, but the fact remains that they have a show to make, and are tied to schedules in a way that we all know, to our chagrin, that GRRM just isn't.

[comicwolf]

Human changelings, or half-breeds. I'm not entirely sure the women of the Keep aren't old powers themselves.

This would be a fascinating turn in itself. What if not all of Craster's Wives are in fact Craster's "Wives". Would the WW trust in Craster to keep up his end of the bargain, or would they see him as requiring "chaperoning"?

[nedhed]

This would be a fascinating turn in itself. What if not all of Craster's Wives are in fact Craster's "Wives". Would the WW trust in Craster to keep up his end of the bargain, or would they see him as requiring "chaperoning"?

This is interesting, but I'm not sure it totally squares with the fact that two of Craster's wives- one "old woman" and Gilly's mother, both encouraged Sam to take Gilly and the babe after the mutiny. If they were in league with the WWs, it seems like they would have wanted to keep the babe.

ETA: the same two women who said:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

[JNR]

This is interesting, but I'm not sure it totally squares with the fact that two of Craster's wives- one "old woman" and Gilly's mother, both encouraged Sam to take Gilly and the babe after the mutiny.

A very good point, brought up before in Heresy.

I am curious, for those of you who believe Craster's sons are the Others... and that the Others have always been hanging around near Craster's Keep picking up sons... what your thinking is on the subject of how the Craster-Others deal actually worked.

Specifically...

1. What was it that suddenly caused the Others to start building a wight army and attacking wildlings and the Watch -- things we all agree never happened for thousands of years, not since the Long Night?

2. How are Craster's sons connected to the above? Obviously the Others began attacking before Craster ran out of sons.

3. If (despite the above) it was by giving sons to the Others that Craster and his wives kept the wildling population safe from Others/wights, and the sons are now exhausted... aren't they all in horrible danger?

4. If the wives are "old powers" and very well informed of the above, shouldn't they all be horribly afraid of imminent death at the hands of the Others, on the show?

5. Rast says in the last episode that he thinks it was donating babies that kept Craster's Keep safe. Shouldn't it occur to him and the other mutineers that this purported method of remaining safe is, by definition, over? Shouldn't they all be terrified and planning to leave immediately?

6. If it was only through donating sons that safety was managed with the Others... then what in the world was Craster thinking in donating sheep sometimes? How could sheep possibly be an adequate substitute? Or if they were, why didn't Craster always just use sheep? Why don't the wives recommend the mutineers try sheep?

7. Did the Others sometimes take the sheep to the Heart of Winter, and transform them into evil, blue-eyed sheep? Should we expect to see these sheep in future episodes?

Etc.

[Black Crow]

This is interesting, but I'm not sure it totally squares with the fact that two of Craster's wives- one "old woman" and Gilly's mother, both encouraged Sam to take Gilly and the babe after the mutiny. If they were in league with the WWs, it seems like they would have wanted to keep the babe.

ETA: the same two women who said:

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

Not necessarily. If it is Craster's bloodline which is important, they need to get the last of his sons [as Gilly's child is] away in order to grow up and continue the family tradition

[Hrafntýr]

If we look at changelings, what about Jon and Ramsay Snow? And, because he share the eye-color with Ramsay, Roose Bolton?

That's definitely where my thoughts often go. They're both originally Snows, though Ramsay has been made Bolton and, if Robb's "will" matters for anything (or even exists), Jon may be made Stark. You've got one Snow at the Wall the other at Winterfell, and no one in the role of "the Stark in Winterfell" but the bones in the crypts. You've got Ramsay actually most resembling the Night's King, but for the fact that he's not at the Wall: recall that the NK "chased and captured" the female Other, much as Ramsay is in the habit of chasing and capturing women, that the NK was described by Nan as being without fear and that this was his downfall, a description echoed in a conversation between Theon and Roose about Ramsay. And of course, those ice eyes. There was once a "Brandon Ice Eyes" among the Stark kings.

Personally, I think we've got a bunch of mythic roles and motifs established: Last Hero, Night's King, Corpse Queen (as abductee/seductress), The Stark in Winterfell, King-beyond-the-Wall, Bael the Bard, all in some relationship to the WWs and Singers/Children. And right now, those motifs/roles are distributed among a number of potential actors: Jon, Stannis, Ramsay, Mance, Melisandre, Lyanna, Bran, Meera (?), with it being possible that any of them might carry out specific functions. A big question, of course, is just how much blood matters in the assumption of these roles.

ETA: oh yeah, I forgot the motif of kinslaying, too.

[wolfmaid7]

Human changelings, or half-breeds. I'm not entirely sure the women of the Keep aren't old powers themselves.

Snowy have a beer :cheers: i've been thinking the same thing .They remind me of "Huldra's" who would lure men to the forest and have babies with them. Its a Scandanavian myth.

Is it just me but that scene with Sam and the older wives was so macabre.The way when Sam asked them where to take them and they said in unison "some place warm".I'm telling you guys those women aren't normal,they his in plain sight and now monster is South...

[nedhed]

Not necessarily. If it is Craster's bloodline which is important, they need to get the last of his sons [as Gilly's child is] away in order to grow up and continue the family tradition

Fair point. But then it gets even more complicated because the WWs seem to want the baby now, since small paul et co come after him before cold hands comes to the rescue. So you'd have Craster's wives sending the baby somewhere warm so he can grow, to continue the craster/ww line, against the immediate interests of the WWs (or at least the horde of wights). At that point, they're calling shots on behalf of the WWs even though the WWs don't realise it's for their own good.

[wolfmaid7]

A very good point, brought up before in Heresy.

I am curious, for those of you who believe Craster's sons are the Others... and that the Others have always been hanging around near Craster's Keep picking up sons... what your thinking is on the subject of how the Craster-Others deal actually worked.

Specifically...

1. What was it that suddenly caused the Others to start building a wight army and attacking wildlings and the Watch -- things we all agree never happened for thousands of years, not since the Long Night?

2. How are Craster's sons connected to the above? Obviously the Others began attacking before Craster ran out of sons.

3. If (despite the above) it was by giving sons to the Others that Craster and his wives kept the wildling population safe from Others/wights, and the sons are now exhausted... aren't they all in horrible danger?

4. If the wives are "old powers" and very well informed of the above, shouldn't they all be horribly afraid of imminent death at the hands of the Others, on the show?

5. Rast says in the last episode that he thinks it was donating babies that kept Craster's Keep safe. Shouldn't it occur to him and the other mutineers that this purported method of remaining safe is, by definition, over? Shouldn't they all be terrified and planning to leave immediately?

6. If it was only through donating sons that safety was managed with the Others... then what in the world was Craster thinking in donating sheep sometimes? How could sheep possibly be an adequate substitute? Or if they were, why didn't Craster always just use sheep? Why don't the wives recommend the mutineers try sheep?

7. Did the Others sometimes take the sheep to the Heart of Winter, and transform them into evil, blue-eyed sheep? Should we expect to see these sheep in future episodes?

Etc.

I've some of these questions myself and even asserted the idea that Craster made a deal with the WWs as ridiculous ( no disrespect) but did Popsicles approach the hut knock on the doorpost and say.It doesn't make sense,what does is that this whole sacrifice thing was initiated by "women".

(" Craster,or Craster'r predecessor "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse?).

When it comes to the wives and how the show depicts them i say hogwash....Those old ladies are running things.The dynamic of the wives and how they are is totally different in the books.In the books when Craster got stabbed a few of them jumped the NW members they weren't on the floor chanting no crap

Gilly was never afraid of Craster,does this girl seem traumatized to anyone? Sam got whammied into taking Monster South.

[comicwolf]

I've asked these questions myself and even asserted the idea that Craster made a deal with the WWs as ridiculous ( no disrespect) but did Popsicles approach the hut knock on the doorpost and say.

(" Craster,or Craster'r predecessor "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse?)

Yes, I agree that the idea that Craster himself, or some combination of Craster and the WWs making the initial deal seems unlikely. I see it as much more likely that this is the continuation of a much more ancient ritual, as has been mentioned in previous Heresies. There is definitely a pervasive cultural memory in the North of the sacrifice/offering of (male?) children.

As to why the Others have awakened and begun assembling an army of wights I have a couple of thoughts

1- I'm not convinced that the WWs are necessarily assembling an army of wights, as I'm of the opinion that the reanimation of corpses, human and animal, may be just an effect of the awakening of the WWs beyond the wall. Whether or not they have direct control over the wights is something I haven't decided I can say with certainty.

2- I'm of the belief that the Others/WWs have become active not because "Winter is Coming" (I've mentioned my thoughts on those words previously) but that it is tied to the reawakening of magic in general, and more specifically is tied to the coming resolution of prophecies about TPTWP.

[Hrafntýr]

A very good point, brought up before in Heresy.

I am curious, for those of you who believe Craster's sons are the Others... and that the Others have always been hanging around near Craster's Keep picking up sons... what your thinking is on the subject of how the Craster-Others deal actually worked.

Specifically...

1. What was it that suddenly caused the Others to start building a wight army and attacking wildlings and the Watch -- things we all agree never happened for thousands of years, not since the Long Night?

2. How are Craster's sons connected to the above? Obviously the Others began attacking before Craster ran out of sons.

3. If (despite the above) it was by giving sons to the Others that Craster and his wives kept the wildling population safe from Others/wights, and the sons are now exhausted... aren't they all in horrible danger?

4. If the wives are "old powers" and very well informed of the above, shouldn't they all be horribly afraid of imminent death at the hands of the Others, on the show?

5. Rast says in the last episode that he thinks it was donating babies that kept Craster's Keep safe. Shouldn't it occur to him and the other mutineers that this purported method of remaining safe is, by definition, over? Shouldn't they all be terrified and planning to leave immediately?

6. If it was only through donating sons that safety was managed with the Others... then what in the world was Craster thinking in donating sheep sometimes? How could sheep possibly be an adequate substitute? Or if they were, why didn't Craster always just use sheep? Why don't the wives recommend the mutineers try sheep?

Etc.

1. This has often been discussed in Heresy, but I don't think there's any agreed upon answer. It's the same question of why "magic" has suddenly returned/strengthened, why the direwolves appeared when they did. Some folks talk about big, global-level cycles of fire-ice balance, others point to Summerhall as a precipitating event (which might work with Craster's timeline, more or less, given his apparent age), but I don't see any clear answer to this question.

2. They may have begun attacking only with the beginning of Craster's sacrifices. They just don't attack him, as the sacrificer, but perhaps the number of attacks have simply been growing as the numbers of WWs, created via the sacrifices, grow?

3. See #2, but maybe this now means the WWs need a new source of lives for fashioning new WWs?

4. Not if they think they can keep sacrificing their babies? If, e.g., it's them, rather than the particular father, that is important in the production of sacrificial victims?

5. Awful as the methods may be, aren't they doing an okay job making new babies? And as I noted in Heresy 111 or 112, I thought it was interesting the way that the show was depicting Karl(?) kind of transforming into Craster 2.0. I think we're likely to see a quick end to that transformation tonight, but it did suggest a mechanism for perpetuation of the sacrificial setup.

6. Craster only sacrificed sheep when there were no babies available, and those were the next most valuable thing he had. No, I don't think the WWs could do much of anything with sheep, but by the logic of sacrifice, from the perspective of the sacrificer, it makes sense. Here's what Gilly says:

"He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till..." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

So, the "white cold" comes and that means the WWs are near, and a sacrifice is required. If there's a male child, it is offered, but if not, the next most valuable thing is apparently a sheep. The passage tells us that the cold which signals the arrival of the WWs now comes more often. In the past, perhaps it was rare enough that there would always be an available male child. Why not always use sheep? Well, maybe because they, like you, realize that sheep can hardly become WWs.

[Phillip Frye]

7. Did the Others sometimes take the sheep to the Heart of Winter, and transform them into evil, blue-eyed sheep? Should we expect to see these sheep in future episodes?

This. I want to see this on the show.

[nedhed]

...

Gilly was never afraid of Craster,does this girl seem traumatized to anyone...

When she approaches Jon to ask him about taking the babe the first time the watch is at Craster's, the exchange goes like this, suggesting fear:

“Won’t Craster be angry with you?” “My father drank overmuch of the Lord Crow’s wine last night. He’ll sleep most of the day.”