Heresy 113

[Phillip Frye]

Loving these threads. Seeing the question of why the WW have started popping up again getting thrown around...has Heresy ever discussed Bloodraven's involvement at length? This Ragnarok theory (http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/, I'm sure it's been mentioned here before) isn't the most well substantiated, but his take on BR as the "deceiver" has always intrigued the hell out of me.

Bloodraven controls everything. Every character is his puppet. He takes over Varys and Missandei to have eyes all over Westeros. He is the God of Many Faces. He sees through Balerion the cat in King's Landing too.

[Phillip Frye]

Which is how we know his statement about his 100 sons was an exaggeration. Craster had 19 wives. Lets assume the child mortality rates, and maternal mortality rates found.....

http://www.sarahwoodbury.com/life-expectancy-in-the-middle-ages/

.....are about right for westoros. Assuming the 30% child mortality, and subtracting the original wife, and factoring in 20% maternal deathrate means that craster had about 34 female children. 34 female children translates to ~ 34 male sacrifices. Craster was lying when he said 100.

EDIT: I took the liberty of calculating the odds of craster having 34 girls and 100 boys. Before you click the following spoiler, have a guess at what you think the number is.....

3*10^-7% or 0.0000003%

The boys mortality would be nil unless they were stillborn if they were given to the Cold Gods immediately after birth.

EDIT: This would explain any discrepancy between the number of boys given to the White Walkers and the lower number of daughters/sister-wives at the fortified compound.

[comicwolf]

Good points all.

1.) Maybe Summerhall? That's just a WAG, but we know Summerhall was a very "magical" happening. Maybe that was the catalyst that ticked off the Others and set the dragons eggs to hatching?

3.) But, was he? We can be fairly certain Craster's sacrifices kept Craster safe, but to hear some of the wildlings talk (cf Tormund talking to Jon in aDwD), they've fought wights and walkers before.

5.) Or, to get to making more babies.

6.) We don't know that Craster's blood is important (or that it isn't). Maybe he's just the only one person craven enough to give his kids away. The old principle of feeding the alligator so he'll eat you last.

7.) To feed the ice dragon, naturally. Dragons love mutton!

Because he's Ned Stark!

I'm not certain I really believe that, but let's try to rule it out. Martin makes sure we know about the iron swords keeping the kings of winter in their crypts. He reminds us from time to time that Ned is not in there. We even get an otherwise pointless scene with Barbrey Dustin in aDwD where she tells Theon that she means to be certain Ned's bones never reach the crypt. On top of that, Leaf tells Bran not to try to "call [Ned] back from death," and Coldhands telling Bran that he's "your monster, Brandon Stark." What if Ned's spirit is just floating on the wind, a la Varamyr, and Bran sorta willed him back into a wight's body?

The reason you haven't seen him on the show is because they're going to use Sean Bean, and once you see him it'll blow the whole thing. < /crackpot>

Is there a previous "Heretical" (I think that would be a great name for prior Heresy posts, a la periodical, just sayin') that delves into Summerhall? Asking as a newbie.

Also, I think that this season has to address "the Coldhands problem", and if it doesn't we may have to accept that Coldhands=Some random NW dude

[redrose]

Has anybody thought that we may have 3 different types of beings ( for want of a better word) living beyond the wall.

1 wights:- re- animated dead

2. Wight walkers:- magical ice made creatures

3. Others:- cross between WW and humans started with the NK.

And off course the wildlings which makes 4 actually

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I think you're hitting on exactly what has been posited here. I have been posing the, admittedly more extreme, angle that the wives are the true keepers of the bloodline established by the Night's King and his (WW? Other?) bride. Craster was a prisoner, possibly from birth, used to perpetuate this, and but the most recent in a long line of men (of Stark blood?).

This is very loose and VERY open to critique/adjustment/downright ridicule ;)

No ridicule at all - this is in line with prior discussions. In fact, some of us have imagined that Craster's first "wife" may have been his own mother - and that the effort to get Monster south of the Wall is merely a reprise of the attempt made by Craster's mother to get the NW to accept Craster himself. In which case, it may be that Craster's bloodline is significant because it is the same as his wife's bloodline.

Some of this makes even more sense through the lens of the horticultural analogy of the apple grove. (Yet another aspect of this Gilly/Craster's Keep Theory...)

[Harlan]

The boys mortality would be nil unless they were stillborn if they were given to the Cold Gods immediately after birth.

Obviously....

Ultimately I think all my calculations were for not. It seems unlikely to me that grmm bothered to do similar calculations meaning that what's likely is irrelevant. I'm dropping that particular topic...

[Armstark]

If you can't wrap your head around the wives being in charge then sending Gilly and Monster South will indeed never make sense. If the wives are in charge and (as I'm theorising) the true keepers of the bloodline, then one son is not important. Craster is a donor of seed in this scenario, he's not important to the wives, other than potentially bearing Stark blood, but that's a whole other story, It's also possible that Gilly and Monster getting South of the wall is something the wives want.

King's blood is something that Mel wants and needs. It's also something she seems capable of identifying. The swap of Mance's boy and Monster seems not to have phased her much. Why is that?

I can understand the theory of the wives being in charge and even like it, but sending Monster south seems to contradict the theory and that was the thing I could not wrap my head around. There needs to be a good reason to send that one babe south instead of sacrificing him. 'something the wives want' is not a satisfactory answer in my mind.

What do you mean by 'one son is not important'? I thought the whole point was to sacrifice the sons?

My theory on why Gilly and Monster were sent south is twofold. First - backing up and looking at the bigger picture - there are significant overtones suggesting a classic etiological mythology of the changing seasons. Craster's feast (or "feed" as he says) takes place at the end of the harvest - Samhain. The harvest is taken in... there are no more sheep or pigs, and the larder is (allegedly) stockpiled with food. Craster's death (murder) parallels nicely the pseudo-mythology of the Corn King. Moving forward from that time, the days grow shorter and (to go all Stark) "winter is coming." Gilly is the youngest wife, and Monster is her son - the last child of the warm season. Their departure from the Keep is, from this perspective, a sign and an enactment of the changing seasons... the time of growth and fertility is ended. Gilly and her child are sent away south - exiled, perhaps... but also saved, because their survival is symbolically the preservation of life in the face of Winter, and the promise that spring/summer will return. A sort of Persephone-style migration between realms...

But at the narrower, narrative, level of the story... I suspect Gilly and Monster were sent south to bring down the Wall. Sound crazy? It may be. But my hunch is based on hints in the text that Gilly (in particular) and the other wives are not entirely human. I suggested above that they might be "old powers" themselves - and I think the subtextual clues certainly point in that direction (see Gilly's pre-dawn encounter with Jon, as well as Sam's confrontation with Ferny and Dyah after the "feast/feed"). If that's true - that Gilly and Monster are at least partly grumkin (or whatever), then getting them south of the Wall - which is warded against the passage of their kind - would represent a significant victory for those powers banished Beyond-the-Wall. And... it could only be accomplished with the assistance of a member of the NW, whose invitation would disarm whatever magic is woven into the Wall. Thus the appeals to Jon and Sam for help.

See this is what I was looking for! Where can I read more about your thinking on Gilly? Heresy or is there another thread?

How will the little Monster bring down the Wall?

[comicwolf]

Let's try and bring two potential theories together here.

Firstly if it's true that the women really are running the show at craters keep and secondly we think that craters blood is important because he may be Stark related then surely according to the show ( not canon) all the said wives at crasters keep will be salivating their chops off at having the prospect of Bran no legs lord of winter fell guesting at their keep????

Ha ha ha! I love it. Based on the previews and this, tonight's episode will be Jon and the men of the Watch slaughtering dozens of women salivating over a 14 year old boy. That, my friends, is television.

[comicwolf]

I can understand the theory of the wives being in charge and even like it, but sending Monster south seems to contradict the theory and that was the thing I could not wrap my head around. There needs to be a good reason to send that one babe south instead of sacrificing him. 'something the wives want' is not a satisfactory answer in my mind.

What do you mean by 'one son is not important'? I thought the whole point was to sacrifice the sons?

See this is what I was looking for! Where can I read more about your thinking on Gilly? Heresy or is there another thread?

How will the little Monster bring down the Wall?

What I mean by "one son is not important" is that if the wives are truly in charge, and Craster was just one in a line of donors of seed, then all the wives need is a male, possibly of Stark blood. The ladies want some sperm, and any man can provide that.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Obviously....

Ultimately I think all my calculations were for not. It seems unlikely to me that grmm bothered to do similar calculations meaning that what's likely is irrelevant. I'm dropping that particular topic...

Not to mention, given the tendency of women in constant close proximity to align their menstrual cycles, it would be difficult for Craster to keep that many of them knocked up, I'd imagine. There's only a small fertile window each month.

Someone get GRRM on record with this!

[comicwolf]

Not to mention, given the tendency of women in constant close proximity to align their menstrual cycles, it would be difficult for Craster to keep that many of them knocked up, I'd imagine. There's only a small fertile window each month.

Someone get GRRM on record with this!

Eh, what the fuck?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

The White Walker babies actually answers another weird question in the book.

Previously, we had a contradiction with Mance's son:

Sam thought this about it:

The boy was Mance's son and Craster's grandson, after all. (Samwell IV, AFfC)

This means that Craster was either Mance's dad or Dalla's dad.

Except, Selyse claims Mance's dad was in the Night's Watch so Mance's dad can't be Craster. After all, the Night's Watch would have killed him as a deserter.

"Mance Rayder was born to a common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers." (Jon XIII, ADwD)

Now, Selyse could be mistaken, but its reported as common knowledge and no one corrects her.

So, Caster was Dalla's dad? Except, Val, Dalla's sister, says:

"Craster's son?" Val shrugged. "He is no kin to me."

Of course, if Craster is Dalla's dad, Gilly, Dalla and Val are all sisters (or half-sisters at least). Gilly's baby should be Val's nephew.

So, either Sam was mistaken, Selyse was mistaken or Val was mistaken.

Or.......

The women beyond the wall don't feel kinship with Craster's sons.

"The boy's brothers," said the old woman on the left "Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel in in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."

The woman doesn't say "our sons." She feels no kinship with Craster's sons despite having had given birth to many of them and being the aunt of the others.

Val, too, if Craster's daughter and Gilly's sister, feels no kinship to Craster's son at the Wall.

[Harlan]

I don't want to bring up the show again but.....

Tonight's episode corrected most of the problems with the plot beyond the wall. Bran and co are back on their path north. Jon has ghost. Jon never found out that bran and co were at crasters. The guy from the dreadfort was KIA before successfully killing bran or even revealing himself as a bolton agent to jon. Indeed, jon was never even attacked by him. Show is about back on track......

EDIT: Craster's wives also explicitly stated that craster beat and 'did worse' to them. They then proceeded to burn down craster's keep.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

See this is what I was looking for! Where can I read more about your thinking on Gilly? Heresy or is there another thread?

How will the little Monster bring down the Wall?

Glad you're interested - happy to oblige! As far as where to look for the development stages of this theory - definitely Heresy. Mostly in the early-to-mid 80s threads (actually, H80 and H81 is where it starts).

The post where I first voiced the fact that I was growing suspicious of Gilly. (Heresy 80)

That was followed by some in-depth analysis of Gilly's name and character: here (Part 1), here (Part 2) and here (Part 3). (All from Heresy 81.)

Another piece of this theory is the idea that, by agreeing to take Gilly south - away from the Keep, and as far as the Wall - Sam in fact (if unknowingly) struck a bargain with the older wives. This grew initially from a particular etymological usage of the word "gilliflower." A couple of posts discussing the bargain are: here (Heresy 80) here and here (both in Heresy 83).

For discussion on the Monster-Bran changeling Swap, see this post from Heresy 86.

And finally - if you're still interested, and want to get horticultural about this - try this Apple Orchard Analogy for Craster's Keep, and one idea for how Gilly fits in.

(There's plenty of other good discussion on these ideas in those threads, and I don't mean to ignore other folks' posts. I'm just most familiar with my own, and can remember them well enough to look them up... :) )

:cheers: Look forward to reading your thoughts!

-----------------

ETA: And FWIW - here is the innocent little post that kicked off this debate about Craster's Wives "running the show".

[JNR]

Well, after the last scene of tonight's episode, it's difficult for me to believe Craster's wives were running things.

On the show, at least.

[Frey family reunion]

I don't want to bring up the show again but.....

Tonight's episode corrected most of the problems with the plot beyond the wall. Bran and co are back on their path north. Jon has ghost. Jon never found out that bran and co were at crasters. The guy from the dreadfort was KIA before successfully killing bran or even revealing himself as a bolton agent to jon. Indeed, jon was never even attacked by him. Show is about back on track......

EDIT: Craster's wives also explicitly stated that craster beat and 'did worse' to them. They then proceeded to burn down craster's keep.

Yet doesn't it seem to bring up at least one more wtf moment? I mean what was Jojen doing exactly with the

fire hand thing?

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

Well, after the last scene of tonight's episode, it's difficult for me to believe Craster's wives were running things.

On the show, at least.

I agree. They seemed way too happy to be rid of the reminder of their situation with Craster and the mutineers to be running things.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well, after the last scene of tonight's episode, it's difficult for me to believe Craster's wives were running things.

On the show, at least.

Haven't seen it - but to be honest, I'd be surprised to see the show take up the possibility. The way it's written through 3 books (and 5) is too subtle for the screen... and even it were to end up being included as a twist, it would be too early to clue viewers in. (Same reason Rhaegar and Lyanna haven't made appearances.)

But again... personally I'm not terribly enthusiastic about seeing book-story evidence on the screen, or screen-story evidence in the books.

[Harlan]

Yet doesn't it seem to bring up at least one more wtf moment? I mean what was Jojen doing exactly with the

fire hand thing?

Well...

It was him seeing the future. They did it in a different way in this episode than in previous episodes, but it was definitely just greendaydreaming.

[JNR]

Yet doesn't it seem to bring up at least one more wtf moment?

That particular moment was... interesting, but I didn't see it as contradicting the canon, so much as making a prediction the canon hasn't.

I agree there was at least one WTF moment, though. More than one.

(Same reason Rhaegar and Lyanna haven't made appearances.)

That would be one explanation for it.