Heresy 114

[Armstark]

Wonder what the significance of Coldhands riding an elk may be. Any connection with the piece of elk antler that slew Mama Direwolf?

The elk connects Coldhands to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces who also ride elks. So he may have been involved in the Pact and maybe he is still to this day.

[Yield.]

It's possible. Though it seems like Coldhands is probably supposed to show us something, some kind of foreshadowing, much as we've speculated V6's warging and merging with the world around him at the end might foreshadow some other things.

I could be that Coldhands served his purpose and that's all we will see of him. Just like Ned Dayne served his purpose and we haven't seen him again even though we've been back to the BwB. But as is the case with young Dayne there is a lot of information imparted in that meeting that may have ramifications further up the road. Coldhands rather than give the information verbally I think does it physically, meaning in his very existence.

I think he resembles the living more than Lady Stoneheart, I would pot him more at Beric level or higher.

By all descriptions,IIRC, the wights eyes should all be blue, so regardless of his origin, it is very peculiar that he has black eyes, obviously this pales in comparison to his other peculiarities, he is an undead that not only acts like the living (unlike the wights) but is also capable of speech.

This what I mean by the information we get from Coldhands being of a physical rather than narrative nature. Here we have a man that clearly fits the physical description of a wight. No need for sleep or food, he shuns the heat and his hands like those of the wights are black due to pooled, congealed blood (note that neither Beric or Cat have this feature.) Yet he doesn't act in any way like the other wights and he is very clearly missing that blue glow to his peepers.

That he is not blue eyed is I think the biggest clue here. And to me at least it points to the possibility that making a wight could be a distinct two step process. First there must be an element of necromancy and second an element of control. We get a strong clue too in Small Paul loosing that blue glow and continuing to move about. Thistle is fighting something unseen before that blue glow appears in her eye sockets too. In both cases there is animation without glow, however fleeting or inconsequential it might seem.

So if as we've thought in the past that Coldhands, be him a Stark or not must have been a skinchanger (evidenced by the unnatural control he has over the elk) that reclaimed his body, perhaps it's not only significant that it's actually possible to do this, but also that it shows that Mel is right when she says it's a matter of necromancy we are dealing with here that has been used to the advantage of whoever or whatever is behind that blue glow.

[Yield.]

Wonder what the significance of Coldhands riding an elk may be. Any connection with the piece of elk antler that slew Mama Direwolf?

Wasn't it a dear antler? As in a stag?

[Yield.]

Indeed. I was just looking at that myself. In fact, Val refers to the child as "the monster" when she asks after him upon returning with Tormund. Given how frequently the word ("monster") is otherwise used to identify creatures the Wall is believed to protect against - giants (Wun Wun), Coldhands, etc. - the boy's milk name looks like an ironic dig at the entire NW operation.

I always took that as a tongue in cheek to name the WWs youngest brother as Monster.

Here's what Ygritte has to say on the matter:

"...You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

So my crackpot for the day:- Coldhands is Craster's very first son, on whom they tested the turning. (poor thing they just hadn't got the formula quite right.)

[Urrax2]

Wasn't it a dear antler? As in a stag?

Thanks. May well have been, can't check it just now.

[horizon]

A stags antler is found in its neck.

[bobbechk]

So here's my crackpot theory.

Who: One of Bloodraven's most trusted men, likely to have served under BR's command in the rebellion. Later thrown in the dungeons with BR and then became part of the honour guard to the Nights Watch for Aemond that BR was part of as well.

What happened to him: During BR's travels to the cave he now resides in he brought a few loyal men, on the way they were attacked (Bonus theory below) and Coolhands sacrificed himself in order for BR to go on. BR then used his vast knowledge of blood magic and sorcery to revive him (same technique as for cat).

Why: BR needed him as eye's and protection outside the cave, and later on as a guide for Bran

Crackpot²: Since there are no records of what happened in the Watch (This happened not to long ago!) we can only assume that it has been eradicated for some purpose. I think that for some reason the Watch tried to kill BR and his entourage which would explain why Coolhands goes off to hunt the Watch members (deserters or not!) "They were foes". He doesn't hurt Sam since he has been instructed not to.

[Melifeather]

Rather depends on how literally we're to take this. Sandor and Ser Jaime certainly sound right for the hound and the golden man, but not Ser Gregor. It has been plausibly suggested elsewhere that he might be Littlefinger and while Dear Petyr isn't exactly a big guy, we do have Maester Aemon's remark that Tyrion is a giant - mirroring his shadow in the earlier scene with Jon. Thus the "giant" in Bran's vision may well reflect Littlefinger's importance rather than his physical stature.

as to the Heart of Winter I still hold that it wasn't a physical place, but the future, and that's why Bran cried out in fear not at what lay in the Land of Always Winter, but at what was to come...

I agree with Littlefinger being the "giant" as he was the powerful figure pulling the strings behind the early events in Kings Landing. Certainly Ned, Sansa and Arya had much more to fear from Littlefinger than the Mountain. Littlefinger got Lysa to poison her husband, Jon. That single action brought Ned, Sansa and Arya to Kings Landing, got Ned beheaded, Sansa held prisoner, and Arya on the run.

I could be that Coldhands served his purpose and that's all we will see of him. Just like Ned Dayne served his purpose and we haven't seen him again even though we've been back to the BwB. But as is the case with young Dayne there is a lot of information imparted in that meeting that may have ramifications further up the road. Coldhands rather than give the information verbally I think does it physically, meaning in his very existence.

This what I mean by the information we get from Coldhands being of a physical rather than narrative nature. Here we have a man that clearly fits the physical description of a wight. No need for sleep or food, he shuns the heat and his hands like those of the wights are black due to pooled, congealed blood (note that neither Beric or Cat have this feature.) Yet he doesn't act in any way like the other wights and he is very clearly missing that blue glow to his peepers.

That he is not blue eyed is I think the biggest clue here. And to me at least it points to the possibility that making a wight could be a distinct two step process. First there must be an element of necromancy and second an element of control. We get a strong clue too in Small Paul loosing that blue glow and continuing to move about. Thistle is fighting something unseen before that blue glow appears in her eye sockets too. In both cases there is animation without glow, however fleeting or inconsequential it might seem.

So if as we've thought in the past that Coldhands, be him a Stark or not must have been a skinchanger (evidenced by the unnatural control he has over the elk) that reclaimed his body, perhaps it's not only significant that it's actually possible to do this, but also that it shows that Mel is right when she says it's a matter of necromancy we are dealing with here that has been used to the advantage of whoever or whatever is behind that blue glow.

Coldhands is very different than wights, and I see similarities to Beric and Lady Stoneheart, but the process shouldn't turn out the same, should it? Fire magic breathed life back into Beric and Catelyn. We haven't seen ice magic breath life, it's supposed to preserve, that's why I think there's something about trapping spirits within the dead and I'm thinking a warg would make a different, more powerful wight.

I also had a crackpot-ty thought regarding Melisandre. Some have presumed that Melisandre was once Melony, a child taken and put into slavery. We know that wildlings have been captured near Hardhome before and sold into slavery. Wouldn't it be ironic if Melony was once a wildling? An extra crackpottery layer would be if Melony had been a warg.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The elk connects Coldhands to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces who also ride elks. So he may have been involved in the Pact and maybe he is still to this day.

Having trouble finding the passage that says that, got a book/chapter handy?

[Yield.]

The elk connects Coldhands to the Green Men on the Isle of Faces who also ride elks. So he may have been involved in the Pact and maybe he is still to this day.

You guys maybe on to something with this because I just checked and...

Thanks. May well have been, can't check it just now.

A stags antler is found in its neck.

Horizon and I were wrong. There is no mention of a stag, it's just an assumption we make. Unless later on it's identified as such...but in the moment of discovery it only says this:

His father knelt and groped under the beast’s head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow.

ETA:- I just ran a search on the word antler and as I suspected, the antler tine was never associated with a stag other than hinted at by Catelyn to be a foreshadowing of Ned going to Kings Landing and she fears bad things due to Lysa's letter about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn.

[Melifeather]

You guys maybe on to something with this because I just checked and...

Horizon and I were wrong. There is no mention of a stag, it's just an assumption we make. Unless later on it's identified as such...but in the moment of discovery it only says this:

His father knelt and groped under the beast’s head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow.

ETA:- I just ran a search on the word antler and as I suspected, the antler tine was never associated with a stag other than hinted at by Catelyn to be a foreshadowing of Ned going to Kings Landing and she fears bad things due to Lysa's letter about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn.

The stag association, of course, comes from identifying House Baratheon as causing the death of the parental Stark direwolf, but I like the idea that the Green Men were trying to send the message/warning.

[Frey family reunion]

I think he resembles the living more than Lady Stoneheart, I would pot him more at Beric level or higher.

By all descriptions,IIRC, the wights eyes should all be blue, so regardless of his origin, it is very peculiar that he has black eyes, obviously this pales in comparison to his other peculiarities, he is an undead that not only acts like the living (unlike the wights) but is also capable of speech.

I think the main reason Lady Stoneheart comes across so poorly is that her throat was cut so she really can't verbalize very well. Otherwise her intellect seems mostly intact.

[CladInShadows]

I could be that Coldhands served his purpose and that's all we will see of him. Just like Ned Dayne served his purpose and we haven't seen him again even though we've been back to the BwB. But as is the case with young Dayne there is a lot of information imparted in that meeting that may have ramifications further up the road. Coldhands rather than give the information verbally I think does it physically, meaning in his very existence.

This what I mean by the information we get from Coldhands being of a physical rather than narrative nature. Here we have a man that clearly fits the physical description of a wight. No need for sleep or food, he shuns the heat and his hands like those of the wights are black due to pooled, congealed blood (note that neither Beric or Cat have this feature.) Yet he doesn't act in any way like the other wights and he is very clearly missing that blue glow to his peepers.

That he is not blue eyed is I think the biggest clue here. And to me at least it points to the possibility that making a wight could be a distinct two step process. First there must be an element of necromancy and second an element of control. We get a strong clue too in Small Paul loosing that blue glow and continuing to move about. Thistle is fighting something unseen before that blue glow appears in her eye sockets too. In both cases there is animation without glow, however fleeting or inconsequential it might seem.

So if as we've thought in the past that Coldhands, be him a Stark or not must have been a skinchanger (evidenced by the unnatural control he has over the elk) that reclaimed his body, perhaps it's not only significant that it's actually possible to do this, but also that it shows that Mel is right when she says it's a matter of necromancy we are dealing with here that has been used to the advantage of whoever or whatever is behind that blue glow.

You've given me a thought. When skinchanging, the skinchanger's consciousness leaves their body and enters that of the target, then returns again once they stop. What if a skinchanger was to be killed by an Other while their consciousness was off somewhere else and so wasn't killed along with their body, only to have it return once their body had already been reanimated as a Wight? Hence his referral to himself as a "monster" as he has ended up a "freak" wight only by chance of timing?

[Tyryan Lannister]

You guys maybe on to something with this because I just checked and...

Horizon and I were wrong. There is no mention of a stag, it's just an assumption we make. Unless later on it's identified as such...but in the moment of discovery it only says this:His father knelt and groped under the beast’s head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow.

ETA:- I just ran a search on the word antler and as I suspected, the antler tine was never associated with a stag other than hinted at by Catelyn to be a foreshadowing of Ned going to Kings Landing and she fears bad things due to Lysa's letter about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn.

I don't have the quote handy, but I believe the way that Martin describes the scene as it first came to him involves explicit mention of it being a stag that did the mommy wolf in

[Frey family reunion]

Wonder what the significance of Coldhands riding an elk may be. Any connection with the piece of elk antler that slew Mama Direwolf?

It's not an ordinary elk either, it appears to be a giant elk that once roamed Westeros during the time of the First Men, making it more akin to a Direwolf, or a unicorn, "prehistoric" animals that seem closer to the Old Gods than more mundane animals.

We learn the existence of this type of Elk in ASOS

Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.

Later when Sam first comes into contact with Coldhands and his Elk:

He's wearing blacks. Sam urged Gilly toward him. The elk was huge, a great elk, ten feet tall at the shoulder, with a rack of antlers near as wide.

Ten feet tall at the shoulder is no ordinary Elk, this Elk is to elk as Direwolves are to wolves.

The presence of the Elk and ravens resonate with the Reeds as well, this conversation is where we learn that the Green Men may have rode elk:

"That wasn't his true name," said Gilly, rocking. "We only called him that, Sam and me. His hands were cold as ice but he saved us from the dead men, him and his ravens, and he brought us here on his elk."

"His elk?" said Bran, wonderstruck.

"His elk?" said Meera, startled.

"His ravens?" said Jojen.

"Hodor?" said Hoder.

"Was he green?" Bran wanted to know. "Did he have antlers?"

The fat man was confused. "The elk?"

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "the green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

[TheTowerOfJoy]

"Was he green?" Bran wanted to know. "Did he have antlers?"

The fat man was confused. "The elk?"

"Coldhands," said Bran impatiently. "the green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too."

There's the quote! Thanks, I was having trouble finding it.

And I've long thought that Coldhands might have been a Warg who was wighted, but who "reclaimed" his corpse from whatever raised it. The green men connection is an interesting one, though.

[Frey family reunion]

GRRM probably based this creature on the prehistoric "Irish Elk" which I learned from wiki:

The Irish Elk (Megaloceros giganteus),^[1][2] was a species of Megaloceros and one of the largest deer that ever lived. Its range extended across Eurasia, from Ireland to northern Asia and Africa, but a related form is recorded from China.^[3] during the Late Pleistocene. The most recent remains of the species have been carbon dated to about 7,700 years ago in Siberia.^[4] Although most skeletons have been found in Irish bogs, the animal was not exclusively Irish and was not closely related to either of the living species currently called elk - Alces alces (the European elk, known in North America as the moose) or Cervus canadensis (the North American elk or wapiti). Recent phylogenetic analyses support the idea of a sister-group relationship between fallow deer and the Irish Elk.^[5][6] For this reason, the name "Giant Deer" is used in some publications.

The Irish Elk stood about 2.1 metres (6.9 ft) tall at the shoulders carrying the largest antlers of any known cervid (a maximum of 3.65 m (12.0 ft) from tip to tip and weighing up to 40 kg (88 lb)). In body size, the Irish Elk matched the extant moose subspecies of Alaska (Alces alces gigas) as the largest known deer. The Irish Elk is estimated to have attained a total mass of 540–600 kg (1,190–1,320 lb), with large specimens having weighed 700 kg (1,500 lb) or more, roughly similar to the Alaskan Moose.^[7][8][9] A significant collection of M. giganteus skeletons can be found at the Natural History Museum in Dublin.

[Melifeather]

You've given me a thought. When skinchanging, the skinchanger's consciousness leaves their body and enters that of the target, then returns again once they stop. What if a skinchanger was to be killed by an Other while their consciousness was off somewhere else and so wasn't killed along with their body, only to have it return once their body had already been reanimated as a Wight? Hence his referral to himself as a "monster" as he has ended up a "freak" wight only by chance of timing?

We've seen what happens to wargs when their bodies die while their spirit is outside, they must quickly find a host or the wind will sweep their spirit away. I think it would be more like if they are killed with their spirit intact, like Haggon, they might be able to warg their dead bodies, except Haggon's heart was eaten, so in effect his spirit was eaten too.

There's the quote! Thanks, I was having trouble finding it.

And I've long thought that Coldhands might have been a Warg who was wighted, but who "reclaimed" his corpse from whatever raised it. The green men connection is an interesting one, though.

Same answer as above, I don't think they can reclaim their bodies, otherwise Varamyr would have tried it.

I like the connection to the Green Men also. We don't know exactly what Green Men are yet, but I'm sure we will lean more about them since they've already been mentioned.

[JNR]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Melony was once a wildling?

Her origins are indeed rather misty.

She is repeatedly said to be from Asshai. Her app entry actually says point blank: "Origin: Asshai."

But her POV chapter establishes that she had learned much of the world before she went to Asshai, such as the PR value of making magic look easy.

For me, the double takeaway is (1) we really don't know where she came from at all, and (2) the app, much like the wiki, is really not to be trusted.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Wonder what the significance of Coldhands riding an elk may be. Any connection with the piece of elk antler that slew Mama Direwolf?

You guys maybe on to something with this because I just checked and...

Horizon and I were wrong. There is no mention of a stag, it's just an assumption we make. Unless later on it's identified as such...but in the moment of discovery it only says this:

His father knelt and groped under the beast’s head with his hand. He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.
A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.
His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow.

ETA:- I just ran a search on the word antler and as I suspected, the antler tine was never associated with a stag other than hinted at by Catelyn to be a foreshadowing of Ned going to Kings Landing and she fears bad things due to Lysa's letter about the Lannisters killing Jon Arryn.

Ooh... very interesting thought there, Urrax.. with good follow up by Yield. A possible misdirection by Martin right from the start of the books. (Or at least a multi-layering of meaning.) Of course the readers (and characters) are going to view the omen as concerning House Stark and House Baratheon... but Baratheon could be the (much overused) "red herring" here.

The stag association, of course, comes from identifying House Baratheon as causing the death of the parental Stark direwolf, but I like the idea that the Green Men were trying to send the message/warning.

I find the possibilities more chilling than this. To me, the omen is more likely an indicator that the Green Men (or related parties) are the ones responsible for the downfall of House Stark / Winterfell. Death and destruction of direwolf... by elk.

[ FWIW - The idea that the mother direwolf symbolizes Winterfell, or House Stark, has grown on me a great deal.... as opposed to the more concrete connection to Ned's individual execution. Heresy has probably discussed this before somewhere, but as an omen it just seems to work better in several ways if we connect the dead wolf with the House. One thing in particular that makes more sense is the way it contextualizes Ghost / Jon. There's been a good bit of discussion about where Ghost came from, whether he's actually born of that same dead wolf... trying to make a direct tie-in between Ghost's biological origin and what we suspect about Jon himself, etc. But in the end, a lot of that seems like overthinking. Jon is a "son of Winterfell" - just as the other Stark children are all "blood of Winterfell." The mother direwolf serves as a stand-in for the House. And that makes sense in the larger framework, where Ned's death is a relatively small (albeit crucial and shocking) plot point, and the bigger issue through all five books (and counting) is the fact that Winterfell itself (the entire House of Starks) appears to have been wiped out. And we read on with bated breath to find out whether the pups survive... ]

I don't have the quote handy, but I believe the way that Martin describes the scene as it first came to him involves explicit mention of it being a stag that did the mommy wolf in

Yes, "stag" is the word that I most readily associate with this scene as well. "Elk" is a word used much less frequently in these books - the mention I recall most vividly is the same posted above by FFR. I would not initially have connected these two words on my own - but a glance at the wikipedia article for elk shows that the word "stag" is appropriate for referencing the male elk. Go figure.

It's not an ordinary elk either, it appears to be a giant elk that once roamed Westeros during the time of the First Men, making it more akin to a Direwolf, or a unicorn, "prehistoric" animals that seem closer to the Old Gods than more mundane animals.

We learn the existence of this type of Elk in ASOS

Good collection of quotations. That description of Mance's tent is an especially good find... I did not remember that one!

ETA: Initial post by Urrax. (Credit where credit is due!) :)