Feminism redux - please read first post of thread

[Istakhr]

This is basically a core belief for libertarians, I'm afraid. It's tenuous at best, but they really stick to it.

Don't most libertarians look at rights as some sort of God given constructs or innate natural thing as opposed to social contracts backed by threat and application of violence?

[Roose Seal]

What does this have to do with MRAs?

Also: holy shit. This guy was a joke on reddit a few days ago, just another asshole that ended up on the cringe subreddit.

Because I've never encountered a single MRA who didn't think he was entitled to women's attention.

EDIT:As for what should have been done about this: I'd really like to know just how serious the threat was before and what exactly the police were empowered -or likely- to do about it. Hindsight is 20/20.

He was a white guy from an affluent family, even if he hadn't died there and then he probably wouldn't have faced justice.

[emberling]

Kos links him to several MRA/PUA communities, for whatever that's worth.

[Robin Of House Hill]

RS,

MRA is about entitlement and privilege. I'm amazed that people think otherwise.

[brook]

but you see this is just feminist hysteria in action.

It means nothing that this guy had links to MRA groups and was spouting MRA rhetoric as he threatened to kill those blonde sluts who did not lay down and spread their legs for him. It also doesn't matter that this MRA bullshit is just a distilled version of attitudes you see everywhere in our culture.

It's most important that we remember that NOT ALL MRA's are violent misogynists because really this is all about them. The most persecuted group in society.

[Mad Monkey]

Many people (well, OK, many MRAs) view their movement as being complementary to feminism in some way, as in they advocate for men in a way that feminists advocate for women. They usually make this argument first, then when it gets deflated or exposed, shift to arguing that they are egalitarians (or, I guess, "individualists") who advocate for everyone equally, without considering group identities at all.

I think the core difference between the two is that (at least in my view) feminism is about respecting the autonomy of women as individuals and MRAs tend to emphasize the obligations that society in general and women in particular have to reinforce and validate their feelings.

It also doesn't matter that this MRA bullshit is just a distilled version of attitudes you see everywhere in our culture.

I think that's a very good point that will likely be missed in news coverage about this case. People will zero in on the MRA stuff because it's sensational and outlandish, but really the core attitudes are actually pretty pervasive. How often do you see romantic or sexual success portrayed as prizes given to people (mostly men) for being good people? (ie the hero of the story gets his dream girl as a reward for being a hero) How often do you hear people suggest that being unlucky in love/romance is a sign of some kind of moral failing? Heck, I'll bet people are saying that now about this guy -- conflating his murderous impulse, his entitlement and rage, and his status as a virgin together, with an undercurrent of blame aimed towards women and girls in his life.

[Castel]

Because I've never encountered a single MRA who didn't think he was entitled to women's attention.

This makes no sense when applied to the question at hand.

MRA is about entitlement and privilege. I'm amazed that people think otherwise.

Not my point.The issue is not so much whether MRAs (or PUAs/TRPers, because none of those people in that list seem like MRAs- the two aren't the same) are reactionaries, or misogynists If you're going to make political hay out of a situation like this, come correct.

[1918me]

but you see this is just feminist hysteria in action.

It means nothing that this guy had links to MRA groups and was spouting MRA rhetoric as he threatened to kill those blonde sluts who did not lay down and spread their legs for him. It also doesn't matter that this MRA bullshit is just a distilled version of attitudes you see everywhere in our culture.

It's most important that we remember that NOT ALL MRA's are violent misogynists because really this is all about them. The most persecuted group in society.

Not at all like us entitled feminists. How dare we suggest that women make their own decisions, that women are entitled to associate with whoever they want?

I think that's a very good point that will likely be missed in news coverage about this case. People will zero in on the MRA stuff because it's sensational and outlandish, but really the core attitudes are actually pretty pervasive. How often do you see romantic or sexual success portrayed as prizes given to people (mostly men) for being good people? (ie the hero of the story gets his dream girl as a reward for being a hero) How often do you hear people suggest that being unlucky in love/romance is a sign of some kind of moral failing? Heck, I'll bet people are saying that now about this guy -- conflating his murderous impulse, his entitlement and rage, and his status as a virgin together, with an undercurrent of blame aimed towards women and girls in his life.

No one I know personally acts this way, but it's always really upsetting to see people define romantic success as a function of one's moral character. The number of women who will have sex with a man isn't a dependent variable of one of his personal attributes, regardless of how it's been reinforced in the media for however many centuries.

[Stannisaurus]

The current conversation about MRA is kinda weird considering how 5-6 pages ago there was a complain about how people imagine "Valerie Solanas" when they hear "feminism". But apparently MRAs now "have to be dealt with".

As for MRA (not talking about a specific movement but the ideology), I haven't heard of them anywhere else aside from feminist conversations so one - two months ago I checked out an MRA site. That particular site did not strike me as fundamentally different that what feminists usually say: I agreed with a few things, disagreed with most (including the ideology as a whole) and some I found unacceptable. There was no "alpha-male" stuff, at least not on what I had read (I'll try to find it again) so I'm pretty sure that at least some of them are not the "let's crush women" type.

But apparently this tragedy is too good of an opportunity to miss for some people. What really irks me is that this is partially spearheaded by a person who a couple of weeks ago in this forum pretty much said "ohh poor men dying lol" (paraphrasing) about the pattern of men being the predominant victims of fatal violence in the UK.

Anyway, RIP for the victims. If that asshole had problems, he shouldn't have taken them out on innocent random people.

[brook]

Absolutely. Pointing out the ways that this tragedy is a logical extention of societal attitudes towards women and ESPECIALLY of this particular subculture is just using the tragedy, god forbid that anyone ever calls for change in response to something awful, and predictable happens.

I'm going to assume your last comment was a dig at me, I don't remember ever even interacting with you but honestly the trolls in this thread do seem to run together. I am, and will continue to be, absolutely dismissive of anyone who trys to bring up evidence of men killing other men as a reason why we should continue to ignore women dying at the hands of men for no other reason than because they are women.

If there is a problem with male on male violence what the fuck do you expect feminists to do about it?

[Stannisaurus]

I'm going to assume your last comment was a dig at me, I don't remember ever even interacting with you but honestly the trolls in this thread do seem to run together.

Yep, you never interacted with me and yet you realized that it was directed at you. Makes sense. (apparently if you comment on a post without quoting it what you say doesn't count because it's not "interaction")

I am, and will continue to be, absolutely dismissive of anyone who trys to bring up evidence of men killing other men as a reason why we should continue to ignore women dying at the hands of men for no other reason than because they are women.

Never done that. Our posts are available and free for anyone to check. You weren't just "dismissive" of me, you said something in the lines of "oh poor men" in a sarcastic way about that pattern.

If there is a problem with male on male violence what the fuck do you expect feminists to do about it?

Not sneer about it and then pretend to have moral high ground would be a start.

[Lightysnake88]

I've honestly seen movements against male/male violence, and female/male violence from feminits. It is a real issue and ties into the same cultural attitudes that lead to womens' oppression: women being weak, guys needing to be strong and dominating. It leads to abuse allegations from men not being taken seriously.

I'd have a lot more respect from MRA groups if they bothered to recognize genuine issues for male advocacy that need it instead of lashing out at shadows.

[brook]

If that would be the start what is the next step?

Once feminists accept that yes, our real focus of concern should be the male victims of male violence and not the women who are killed, because as women our focus and concern should at all times be about how every issue affects men...

What do you suggest we do?

[Stannisaurus]

If that would be the start what is the next step?

Once feminists accept that yes, our real focus of concern should be the male victims of male violence and not the women who are killed, because as women our focus and concern should at all times be about how every issue affects men...

What do you suggest we do?

Well, I guess the next step would be to stop coming up with stuff I have never said or implied in order to demolish some fictional argument that exists only in your head so tha-... Ohhh I see. You were trying to be sarcastic again. Cleeeeeever!

[1918me]

Well, I guess the next step would be to stop coming up with stuff I have never said or implied in order to demolish some fictional argument that exists only in your head so tha-... Ohhh I see. You were trying to be sarcastic again. Cleeeeeever!

If you had a genuine point to make, it would probably be better served with a less argumentative and antagonistic writing style. As it is, you're coming off as a little (and I hate to use this term, probably because I'm suffering from PTSD from boards like GameFAQs) trollish.

[Lightysnake88]

If that would be the start what is the next step?

Once feminists accept that yes, our real focus of concern should be the male victims of male violence and not the women who are killed, because as women our focus and concern should at all times be about how every issue affects men...

What do you suggest we do?

I can't help but think you misunderstood what I'm getting at. I'm saying I see more work to combat violence in general from feminist groups while Men's Rights groups tend to brush over genuine issues.

Our sole concern should not be how everything affects men. Advocacy against sexual and ay kind of violence against women is incredibly important. Men, however, can be victimized as well, by both men and women and society by and large doesn't treat that seriously, and it has a root in sexism as well.

[Stannisaurus]

If you had a genuine point to make, it would probably be better served with a less argumentative and antagonistic writing style. As it is, you're coming off as a little (and I hate to use this term, probably because I'm suffering from PTSD from boards like GameFAQs) trollish.

Well... yeah if people are sarcastic towards me ofcourse I will be sarcastic towards them which is why the post you quoted is "trollish." Are you honestly telling me that Brook's post was in a different tone than mine?

If you are referring to my previous post I think I made two genuine points:

1) It's absurd to categorize all men's rights activists according to the most fanatic ones,especially when feminists regularly complain when other people do the exact same thing to them. Especially with Bs like "they should be dealt with"? As in a call for either violence or just throw them in jail without legal justification?

2) Knock off a particular user of her high horse

P.S. I'm not MRA and if I was, I would have no problem admitting it.

[brook]

Our sole concern should not be how everything affects men. Advocacy against sexual and ay kind of violence against women is incredibly important. Men, however, can be victimized as well, by both men and women and society by and large doesn't treat that seriously, and it has a root in sexism as well.

For the record my reply was not directed at you and I actually agree with you. My hostility to 'what about the menz' type trolls has nothing at all to do with my attitude towards a way in which entrenched gender roles and attitudes towards masculinity affect men.

I have three sons, I worry about them growing up in a world that tells them the only emotion available to them is anger, and that any steps outside of approved gender roles will make them lesser men.

As you say, I don't see MRA's doing anything to help with this, I do see a lot of them reinforcing the same old bullshit though.

[karaddin]

I'd love for there to be a men's equivalent to feminism, but the MRA movement is not and never will be that. It's reactionary and anti feminist at its core and the "rights" they want are to reestablish dominance over women where men can be men.

They don't give a fuck about the actual issues facing men, such as being victims of violence because that's actually part of the manhood they want.

If there is to be an actual movement to address men's issues I think it will come out of the work of those like Jackson Katz, who are more part of the feminist movement rather than MRA.

As for the comment about MRAs in this context, they take alienated, lonely and bitter guys then tell them its not their fault, it's the fault of women. They encourage and hasten a process of dehumanising women and blaming them for all the problems of the world. When one of these alienated young men goes on a shooting spree only targeting women leaving messages that explicitly hate women and blame them for his problems... And somehow it's not only distasteful but illogical to point out the connection to MRAs? Fuck off with the disingenuous arguments, there's already been enough of that shit in here.

Oh and Stannisaurus, it's not hard to realise someone is badmouthing you when you direct your comment at the person who started this and you are the one that introduced the topic.

[1918me]

Well... yeah if people are sarcastic towards me ofcourse I will be sarcastic towards them which is why the post you quoted is "trollish." Are you honestly telling me that Brook's post was in a different tone than mine?

If you are referring to my previous post I think I made two genuine points:

1) It's absurd to categorize all men's rights activists according to the most fanatic ones,especially when feminists regularly complain when other people do the exact same thing to them. Especially with Bs like "they should be dealt with"? As in a call for either violence or just throw them in jail without legal justification?

2) Knock off a particular user of her high horse

P.S. I'm not MRA and if I was, I would have no problem admitting it.

I didn't mean to say that your sarcasm was of a greater magnitude than Brook's. The problem is, when you come into the thread saying "...apparently this tragedy is too good an opportunity to miss for some people," you're accusing people of callously using this horrible event as a way of scoring points against MRAs or something. That's a little inflammatory, at least the way I see it. However, I don't think discussing this is really going to lead us anywhere, so I apologize for bringing it up.

That being said, I don't think you can equate the MRA movement with feminism the way you seem to be doing. Not once, not one single time, have I ever seen someone who identified as a MRA discuss productive ways of alleviating men of the few social challenges they face. From my experience, people like that seem to ignore the ways in which feminism genuinely benefits men, and latch onto the ways that men are "oppressed," in a disturbingly aggressive and vitriolic manner that I have never seen from a feminist. If I were you, I'd have a big probably admitting I was MRA, given that, from my experience, they're really nothing more than bitter, resentful men who lack the cognitive capacity to deal with their emotional problems without blaming women for them.