LGBTQI - Continued

[emberling]

Regarding intersex - I see intersex as overlapping transgender in much the way that transgender overlaps LGB. There's a lot of ways in which the two correlate, or have similar political needs; there's a lot of people who are both. They are not by any means the same thing (though there is evidence suggesting that the biologically caused component of all three is pretty much the same, with multiple caveats) but the issues and interests overlap. The case of David Reimer, for instance, is strictly neither trans nor intersex but has important implications in regards to both.

I've seen a lot of virulent transphobia from some in the intersex communities though. I don't really see an "LGBTI" community at all; LGB don't see anything interesting about intersex and the people who are intersex that I actually see in our community are pretty much always also queer or trans (if only in that they identify as outside the binary due to being intersex, which is not something most intersex people do). I do like the idea of an overall coalition of gender, sexual and romantic minorities, but I think there's enough 'phobia floating around that it's not going to happen from the gay++ community opening its arms but by something overtly broader forming anew.

For example, when the right wing panics over trans people using the appropriate restrooms, they are never talking about trans men in the men's room.

I suspect that the most effective way to shut people up about "bathroom bills" would to get a cadre of Buck Angel types to make serious noise about how out of place they are in womens' rooms.

It's a terrible idea for a lot of reasons, but I'd laugh, at least. (And if it resulted in a renewed push for single-user rooms everywhere I'd welcome it personally, because fuck multi-user bathrooms, seriously. Even though it would be somewhat of a non-victory for trans rights.)

[Lily Valley]

On one hand, I don't think people should use hurtful words, no matter what the word originally meant.

On the other hand, people will only come up with other bigoted terms.

It's really a no-win situation.

My housemate brought a beautifully wrapped bundle of sticks to a friend's birthday party this week. The jokes over the barbecue while the faggot burned were definitely along the lines of, "laugh now because you'll be crying later." In everyone's defense, we are very immature.

The birthday girl just left a queer activist's job to go back to college. She has already had some trouble dealing with the great wide world. It's still pretty ugly out there.

On a related note, I've had an interesting semester and I think I have one more term before I'm outed at work. Every single LGBTQ student enrolled in my department has been in my class and bending my ear. What I've learned is that my college doesn't have an LGBTQ group, club or fk-all for the students.

Since my cover is blown anyway, does anyone have experience with starting a group like this on a campus? Guidelines? Something? I'm starting a Physics club in the fall so the bureaucracy part is fine, I'll learn that with full college support. I'd like to start a club in the spring with what I've learned and make it totally student led (if possible in a two year school).

[Robin Of House Hill]

Emberling,

The Reimer case is the perfect indication that reassignment surgery before the manifestation of gender identity, is a disaster waiting to happen and should never be done before. However, I do believe that wherever possible, it should be performed before puberty, if the person's gender identity has manifested itself and is stable and social conditions make transition at an early age, practical.

There is no question that there is a close relationship between transsexual, transgender and intersex. I all of those the brain says something different from what the physical characteristics of the body are.

On another front, I found something that indicates the cost of SRS has been driven up by increased demand. I calculated the cost in 1978 to 2014 dollars.

$3,875 in 1978 → $14,542.11 in 2014

[karaddin]

I'd just like to point out that the gender identity doens't necessarily manifest itself before puberty. I may have transitioned younger than you, but you were aware of it well before me, and I see no reason why we should be performing surgery on anyone who isn't requesting it themselves. I see no reason why intersex people (who often aren't even told they are intersex) couldn't have a similar slow realisation of their true gender identity.

Personally I think there is a pretty good chance that as the neurological mechanisms become better understood trans and intersex will be seen as the same condition with manifestations in different segments of the body (eg brain vs genitals etc).

[Robin Of House Hill]

I'd just like to point out that the gender identity doens't necessarily manifest itself before puberty. I may have transitioned younger than you, but you were aware of it well before me, and I see no reason why we should be performing surgery on anyone who isn't requesting it themselves. I see no reason why intersex people (who often aren't even told they are intersex) couldn't have a similar slow realisation of their true gender identity.

Personally I think there is a pretty good chance that as the neurological mechanisms become better understood trans and intersex will be seen as the same condition with manifestations in different segments of the body (eg brain vs genitals etc).

Karaddin,

You are correct. Under what I said, I would not have qualified for SRS, pre-puberty. While I clearly had indications that I was different, at an early age.(between 5 and 9 years old), it wasn't until I was 12 that I clearly knew the nature of what it was. It frightened me so badly, I spent the next 22 years trying to make it not so. I wish that what is known now, was known then. It would have allowed me to avoid a lot of pain.

[brook]

My view is I don't like the idea of surgery on children's genitals without a damn good reason that is not present in most intersex cases. I'd also suggest that, especially in the case of intersex boys that operating before puberty could be an especially awful idea with the surgical techniques so far from being perfected.

At the very least though I would like routine surgery on infants to be banned except in cases where there is a very firm and clear medical need 'to look like what we believe a boy/girl should look like' doesn't count.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Here's an interesting question.

A friend on Facebook invited me to "like" a site that featured, "sex-positive porn with a focus on trans females". Should I unfriend her?

[SuitableTr​ain8]

Here's an interesting question.

A friend on Facebook invited me to "like" a site that featured, "sex-positive porn with a focus on trans females". Should I unfriend her?

no you should share the site

[Robin Of House Hill]

Welcome to my ignore list.

[sj4iy]

Here's an interesting question.

A friend on Facebook invited me to "like" a site that featured, "sex-positive porn with a focus on trans females". Should I unfriend her?

I usually never 'like' anything anyone sends me unless I actually want to. If that person has a problem with it, then they are too sensitive about that sort of thing.

Just my honest opinion.

[Robin Of House Hill]

That's probably a good idea. Sometimes, I'll like something just to show support. But this particular request set me off. The concept of people who suffer due to their being objectified by others, objectifying themselves is really upsetting (I can't really find the right word).

I decided just to ignore the request and say nothing, but I'm still shaking my head.

[sj4iy]

That's probably a good idea. Sometimes, I'll like something just to show support. But this particular request set me off. The concept of people who suffer due to their being objectified by others, objectifying themselves is really upsetting (I can't really find the right word).

I decided just to ignore the request and say nothing, but I'm still shaking my head.

I have a lot of family members whose beliefs differ greatly from my own and they are constantly sending me things. At first I felt compelled to show solidarity with them for fear of offending them, but then I decided I had no wish to clutter up my Facebook with stuff like that. It's hard sometimes, though.

[emberling]

Re: surgery before puberty: supposedly a majority of prepubescent trans kids "desist" (manifest a body-congruent gender identity) around puberty (though everything I've read suggested that desisting trans kids are invariably gay; would be interested to know whether that's 100%, the approx 90%/10% of normal population but switched, or just BS) The degree to which this is true might be vastly overstated in common wisdom, but the data show that some kids do desist and that should counterindicate surgery at that young an age (unless it can be shown that desistence never coincides with e.g. strong dysmorphia)

I don't know why the whole biological factors thing is so interesting to me. Maybe because my personal experience is the way it is. My gender identity is the next thing to nonexistent, but the dysmorphic aspects are palpable - my brain expects a female body even though it doesn't think of itself as any particular kind of brain. I used to get phantom sensations and when HRT gave me the real version, it was exactly the same (though with some verrrry nice bonuses added on!) So I know there's something here beyond identity, something physical. That's what's real to me; my "identity" is just a brittle shell I half-deliberately constructed to stop the existential panic attacks that resulted from the realization that since I didn't have one I could do anything at all with myself.

[sj4iy]

Re: surgery before puberty: supposedly a majority of prepubescent trans kids "desist" (manifest a body-congruent gender identity) around puberty (though everything I've read suggested that desisting trans kids are invariably gay; would be interested to know whether that's 100%, the approx 90%/10% of normal population but switched, or just BS) The degree to which this is true might be vastly overstated in common wisdom, but the data show that some kids do desist and that should counterindicate surgery at that young an age (unless it can be shown that desistence never coincides with e.g. strong dysmorphia)

I don't know why the whole biological factors thing is so interesting to me. Maybe because my personal experience is the way it is. My gender identity is the next thing to nonexistent, but the dysmorphic aspects are palpable - my brain expects a female body even though it doesn't think of itself as any particular kind of brain. I used to get phantom sensations and when HRT gave me the real version, it was exactly the same (though with some verrrry nice bonuses added on!) So I know there's something here beyond identity, something physical. That's what's real to me; my "identity" is just a brittle shell I half-deliberately constructed to stop the existential panic attacks that resulted from the realization that since I didn't have one I could do anything at all with myself.

I think it's really amazing to read about peoples' experience with this sort of thing. I guess the psychological aspect has always fascinated me.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Re: surgery before puberty: supposedly a majority of prepubescent trans kids "desist" (manifest a body-congruent gender identity) around puberty (though everything I've read suggested that desisting trans kids are invariably gay; would be interested to know whether that's 100%, the approx 90%/10% of normal population but switched, or just BS) The degree to which this is true might be vastly overstated in common wisdom, but the data show that some kids do desist and that should counterindicate surgery at that young an age (unless it can be shown that desistence never coincides with e.g. strong dysmorphia)

I don't know why the whole biological factors thing is so interesting to me. Maybe because my personal experience is the way it is. My gender identity is the next thing to nonexistent, but the dysmorphic aspects are palpable - my brain expects a female body even though it doesn't think of itself as any particular kind of brain. I used to get phantom sensations and when HRT gave me the real version, it was exactly the same (though with some verrrry nice bonuses added on!) So I know there's something here beyond identity, something physical. That's what's real to me; my "identity" is just a brittle shell I half-deliberately constructed to stop the existential panic attacks that resulted from the realization that since I didn't have one I could do anything at all with myself.

Interesting that we follow stuff from the same source. But to get to get to the a question of when things occur, My first ideation that by today's definition could be classified as transgender occurred when I was 5 yrs. old. When I was 9 yrs., the Christine Jorgensen story broke. I became obsessed with the story and read everything I could about it, but still didn't make enough of a connection that she and I shared the same condition. You'll have to wit till I publish my book to find out what happened when I was 12, though. :-)

The thing is that in those days, no one knew anything about the phenomenon, so I could only resist what I felt...for another 22 years. I didn't accept what I was and had to be done, until I had found enough information that it was really possible.

Perhaps it isn't really possible to do anything prior to puberty in the vast majority of cases. I only brought up that idea because if it were, so many problems could be avoided.

Emberling, thank you for expressing your thoughts and feelings about your own situation, in the manner you have. I've never been able to grasp that in the abstract, but you've helped me see your experience at a level that I can.

I think it's really amazing to read about peoples' experience with this sort of thing. I guess the psychological aspect has always fascinated me.

That's because while an off topic area of a board devoted to works of fiction, is an unusual place for it, this place is run in a manner that people feel safe talking about such things.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Ok, hive mind. On FB, I got a friend request from someone who shares friends in common with me. She also has a number of other trans women as friends. However, she also has a substantial amount of self-identified cross-dressers as friends and I cannot with with certainty determine which category she, herself is in. I'm a mouse click away from deleting her friend request. If I did so, for those reasons, would that make me an evil person?

[Gneisenau]

Ok, hive mind. On FB, I got a friend request from someone who shares friends in common with me. She also has a number of other trans women as friends. However, she also has a substantial amount of self-identified cross-dressers as friends and I cannot with with certainty determine which category she, herself is in. I'm a mouse click away from deleting her friend request. If I did so, for those reasons, would that make me an evil person?

Couldn't you inquire about her status ?

[Robin Of House Hill]

Couldn't you inquire about her status ?

If someone did that to me, I'd be offended, so no. What I have done is inquire as to why she made the request, saying it would help me decide how to respond. How would I feel if I sent a friend request to a lesbian, who decide, that I look trans, so no way? Worse, how about if they made the decision based on my having friends that identified themselves as trans?

[protar]

I'm not really sure what the issue is. You're thinking about deleting her friend request because...you're not sure if she's trans or not? Is that relevant? Maybe I misunderstood and need a bit of clarification. For me the only factor in accepting a friend request is whether I know and like them or not.

[brook]

It takes a lot for me to accept the friend request of someone I don't know. If anything about them makes me even slightly uncomfortable it's an instant no.