Raw Milk v. Raw Fish, Steak tartare, and raw oysters

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Why are farmers who sell raw milk being raided by the FDA but restaraunts that serve raw fish, raw oysters, and raw beef are not? Why are adults allowed to decide to eat raw fish, raw oysters, and raw beef but not drink raw milk in many places?

I drink and cook with raw milk. I tell people the things I make are made with raw milk before I serve them. Should my actions be illegal? My brother-in-law makes sushi (excellent sushi) at home, should his actions be illegal?

[Prosesskrift]

Raw milk has been found to contain quantities of unhealty bacteria. Not in all samples, but in a worryingly high quantity. Some of this can be aleviated through cleanliness etc, but it will never be entirely safe.

Raw fish on the other hand, though easily contaminated if prepared or stored poorly, can be made entirely safe.

At least that's what I found from reading a swedish and norwegian report on raw milk, and some quick googling of sushi.

[Larry of the Lawn]

All fish used for sushi in the US has to be frozen for long enough to kill any parasites in it. So it's uncooked, but it's been 'cleaned'. I've found worms in my salmon before, but they've been dead.

So why is milk pasteurized? Because there have been outbreaks before, usually caused by a dairy with unclean practices that failed to remove a diseased animal from production. Once the body count gets to a certain level the government steps in. Then people ask "How can we prevent this situation from happening again?" So they decide you have to pasteurize your milk. With sushi they make you freeze it.

Eating raw beef doesn't have much appeal to me, even though I like a rare steak.

I think drinking raw milk is probably not that dangerous, but it's much more likely to make you sick than eating sushi is.

edit: So the comparison isn't really fair - raw milk hasn't been treated to make it safer, but sushi has.

[paddington]

They should be checked by whatever hygiene agencies you have in the US. I picture a raid to be a very specific thing, a unannounced visit by a goverment health inspector I wouldn't class as a raid.

As to your question in the US politics thread. I've eaten sushi in Japan, I'd eat your brother-inlaws sushi. I wouldn't buy pre-packed supermarket sushi, like I'd only eat rare beef at home if I've bought it from my regular butcher, that I've been using for 25 years.

It's mainly about trust, and if you trust your supplier of raw milk, then it's upto you. I kind of think a less creamy rice pudding, isn't a bad trade of for a decreased risk of tb in particular.

** I had a "mild" case of food posioning, I was living on my own at the time, with no real support structure and it was probably the sickest I've ever been. I couldn't keep water down. I am pretty catious these days.

*** Grandmother was a TB nurse in 1930's. It's not something I'd feel comfortable increasing my risk factors to.

[Sparrowyn]

There are no real advantages to drinking raw milk over pasteurized milk (it's a myth that raw milk is healthier), but there are some serious risks. That is why the FDA doesn't want Amish farmers selling raw milk across State lines.

[sologdin]

scot, i had no idea that were were a rawfoodist.

[Altherion]

France prides itself on the availability of raw milk and cheeses made thereof (they scoff at cheeses made from pasteurized milk). I've lived there for a total of about 4 years and it has never been a problem. Wikipedia claims that most of Eastern Europe also allows raw milk. I think that's a pretty convincing sample size showing that there's nothing inherently harmful about it assuming proper handling and cleanliness.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Heres and interesting article on raw milk:

http://chriskresser.com/raw-milk-reality-is-raw-milk-dangerous

From the article:

How does the risk of drinking raw milk compare to other foods?

Now lets put some of these abstract numbers into perspective.

According to the CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly (MMWR), from 2006 − 2008 there were an average of 13 outbreaks and 291 illnesses per year associated with shellfish and mollusks. According to the CDC FoodNet Survey, about 5.7% of the population (17,869,500) consumes shellfish. This means you had a roughly 1 in 61,000 chance of becoming ill from eating shellfish. Thats about 1.5 times the risk of becoming ill from drinking raw milk (1 in 94,000).

The risk is even greater and more serious if you eat raw oysters. 7.4% of people who eat oysters consume them raw (1,322,343). There are 15 deaths a year on average attributed to raw oyster consumption. This means you have about a 1 in 88,000 chance of dying from raw oysters. In other words, you have a greater chance of dying from eating raw oysters than you do of getting sick from drinking unpasteurized milk.

What about other more commonly eaten foods? Check out the chart below, from the 2008 CSPI report. It shows the relative incidence of foodborne illness from 1999 2006, adjusted for consumption.

It's not that I think raw milk is perfectly safe. Clearly it isn't. However, there are other foods produced by farmers or harvested from the wild, particularly the ocean, that people can eat raw without worrying about the FDA swooping in with a SWAT team. Foods that are just as if not more dangerous on average than raw milk. Why the undue hostility?

Sologin,

I'm not a "raw foodist". I simply like raw milk and sushi. I don't see the rational for the disproportionate hostility to raw milk from food regulators.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Back when everyone lived in an agricultural society, raw milk (i.e. the only type of milk) was *comparatively* unproblematic because there was little delay between the stuff coming out of the animal and the final consumption of it. No-one had fridges, so you couldn't store it anyway. The big problems started arising with industrialisation - there was now a lengthy chain of production between the cow and you, which meant more opportunity for nasties to get in.

[Prosesskrift]

I think the point, Ser. Scot, is that Raw milk can never be made entirely safe. Sushi, on the other hand, can be made entirely safe.

The distinction seems rather clear. Food products that, if treated correctly, can be made entirely safe are allowed.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think Scot and Galactus should have a raw food duel - Scot will chug raw milk while Galactus eats as many raw oysters as possible. Who ever vomits first loses.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

PK,

Respectfully, bullshit. Nothing can be made "entirely safe". Hell, I know more about where the raw milk I drink comes from than most who eat sushi, steak tartare, and oysters on the half shell know about their food. As such I question the rational of shutting down daries with FDA SWAT teams when oyster harvesters go unmoslested for engaging in exactly the same "crime".

[paddington]

How many of the raw oysters were choking deaths?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I think Scot and Galactus should have a raw food duel - Scot will chug raw milk while Galactus eats as many raw oysters as possible. Who ever vomits first loses.

Scot will vomit from shear volume before Galactus can finish a few plates worth. That's an unfair challenge.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Yeah, plus I imagine that oysters would be like breathing for a guy who eats planets and such.

[Solmyr]

France prides itself on the availability of raw milk and cheeses ... Wikipedia claims that most of Eastern Europe also allows raw milk.

Back when everyone lived in an agricultural society, raw milk (i.e. the only type of milk) was *comparatively* unproblematic because there was little delay between the stuff coming out of the animal and the final consumption of it. No-one had fridges, so you couldn't store it anyway. The big problems started arising with industrialisation - there was now a lengthy chain of production between the cow and you, which meant more opportunity for nasties to get in.

Here you have you answer. In countries or regions where the industrialization still has a long way to go raw milk is consumed and rarely leads to any illnesses. My personal experience with raw milk - my parents have always preferred buying it over pasteurized milk in a carton box. 20 years ago pasteurized milk was hardly available around here, but nowadays it's the standard. Both of my parents were raised in rural areas (my father has herded and milked cows for years when he was a youth) so they are no strangers to raw milk or drinking it. Yet, in our family, raw milk is always boiled, then left to cool a bit and then refrigerated. This is the standard procedure for most households who handle raw milk. So you don't end up drinking it raw, but it's sold raw and you could drink it such if you wanted to.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Paddington,

I have no clue. That said how difficult is it to choak on a raw oyster? When I've eaten them I just swallowed them whole.

[Prosesskrift]

PK,

Respectfully, bullshit. Nothing can be made "entirely safe". Hell, I know more about where the raw milk I drink comes from than most who eat sushi, steak tartare, and oysters on the half shell know about their food. As such I question the rational of shutting down daries with FDA SWAT teams when oyster harvesters go unmoslested for engaging in exactly the same "crime".

You're mixing two different issues though. One is a question of whether the necessary steps to ensure food safety has been followed. The other one of probability. You can decide that you find the inherent risk of drinking raw milk lesser than the risk of the sushi you eat having been prepared poorly of course. However that hardly seems relevant to the discussion at hand. If you follow all the correct procedures, Sushi is safe wheras raw milk is not.

I drink raw milk when I visit the family farm. We eat waffles and cheese made out of it. That does not mean I do not see the rather glaring difference between raw milk and sushi from a food safety point of view.

[Sparrowyn]

PK,

Respectfully, bullshit. Nothing can be made "entirely safe". Hell, I know more about where the raw milk I drink comes from than most who eat sushi, steak tartare, and oysters on the half shell know about their food. As such I question the rational of shutting down daries with FDA SWAT teams when oyster harvesters go unmoslested for engaging in exactly the same "crime".

Here in Florida they skirt the issue by labeling all raw milk products "for pet consumption only"... and natural food stores just don't talk about it in terms of human consumption. Sort of an inside joke everyone's in on. So instead of fighting Uncle Sam and the horrible "FDA SWAT teams", change the laws in your State and be done with it.

[paddington]

Scot I've no idea, I never eaten oysters. Though just swallowing without chewing sounds like a good way to choke on oyster.