Opinions of Wheel of Time

[Suttree]

By "better" you apparently mean worst. The Domana Campaign was an awful, idiotic military campaign (largely because Rand kept ignoring Davram Bashere's advice--

Were the strategies bad or did you not like it because Rand ignored Bashere's advice?(which only happened at the very end btw) Personal preference says very little about writing quality after all.

Also what are we using as a scale for "idiotic" here? I mean, it may not be Bernard Cornwell but compared to the LB with the fudged channeler numbers, numerous mistakes, endless video game style waves of battle porn, and Demandred ranting like a cartoon villain on acid that "idiotic" campaign almost reaches Frederick the Great's defense of Prussia level heights.

As for dialog guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but I've never seen that opinion shared before. Shrug.

[Kojiro]

That's the consensus. 10 is by far the worst. 8 is by far the second worst. 7 and 9 are a mixed bag.

I personally love 7 but am just stating the overall opinions.

I actually liked books 7 and 9 myself (9 is actually one of my favorites out of the entire series--I guess that's what makes 8 and 10 all the more infuriating is because 9 is sandwiched between those two pieces of crap).

Were the strategies bad or did you not like it because Rand ignored Bashere's advice?(which only happened at the very end btw) Personal preference says very little about writing quality after all.

Also what are we using as a scale for "idiotic" here? I mean, it may not be Bernard Cornwell but compared to the LB with the fudged channeler numbers, numerous mistakes, endless video game style waves of battle porn, and Demandred ranting like a cartoon villain on acid that "idiotic" campaign almost reaches Frederick the Great's defense of Prussia level heights.

As for dialog guess we'll just have to agree to disagree but I've never seen that opinion shared before. Shrug.

It was bad because Rand was holding the IDIOT BALL all the way through. Here he has an expert general and doesn't use his expertise to its fullest. Thus we wind up with a completely moronic battle in a book full of wasted padding.

[Durckad]

Book 6 seems to get most of its praise from the ending. The rest is, IMO, a massively bloated mess of a novel. It's slightly better than 5, but Fires of Heaven is also a massively bloated mess of a novel. I do get a better sense of THINGS happening in book 5 though, even if the surrounding morass is just dismal reading.

But I've always had a contrary opinion on these two and WH.

[Suttree]

It was bad because Rand was holding the IDIOT BALL all the way through. Here he has an expert general and doesn't use his expertise to its fullest. Thus we wind up with a completely moronic battle in a book full of wasted padding.

But that isn't an accurate description of what happened. Rand spent time planning and followed Bashere's strategy throughout, we see the success in the Seanchan being stopped. It wasn't until the very end that he ignored the advice, hence things being fought to a draw. Not to get into more spoilers but we later find out the reason he wasn't thinking straight. It's explained in the series.

It sounds like you didn't like the outcome of that battle and overall pace of the book though. Fair enough.

[Kojiro]

But that isn't an accurate description of what happened. Rand spent time planning and followed Bashere's strategy throughout, we see the success in the Seanchan being stopped. It wasn't until the very end that he ignored the advice, hence things being fought to a draw. Not to get into more spoilers but we later find out the reason he wasn't thinking straight. It's explained in the series.

It sounds like you didn't like the outcome of that battle and overall pace of the book though. Fair enough.

Except Rand ignoring Bashere's advice during the battle is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, so it is an accurate description. When you follow through with the rest of the guy's strategy to where it's been successful so far, you don't suddenly flip out and say "NONONONONOOOOOOONO!" to the rest of his ideas. It made absolutely no fucking sense to do that. Thus not using Bashere to his full potential.

But yeah, with that Idiot Ball Battle combined with the hundreds of pages of nothing happening, it's the perfect example of how to NOT WRITE A BOOK.

[The Anti-Targ]

Started out well, grew in strength, started meandering and losing it's way (around book 8), fell flat at the end. I was considering not bothering to read the final book because I had a feeling I wouldn't be satisfied. But I ended up reading it in order to get closure, and I wasn't satisfied.

How much of the end falling flat is because of a change in author or because the story was always destined to come up short will be an unresolved debate until the end of this age. But I think the story lost its way while Jordan was still in charge and writing, so that probably seals it for me and I don't completely blame Sanderson for not delivering.

I wonder if someone new to the series should read books 1-7 then get the last book out of the library and read the last 200 pages if that would actually be a good approach. I don't think you really miss much context, character development or plot detail by skipping 5 3/4 books. Or maybe read book 8 then skip to the end so you can see the series start to take it's downward slide.

[Suttree]

you don't suddenly flip out and say "NONONONONOOOOOOONO!" to the rest of his ideas. It made absolutely no fucking sense to do that. Thus not using Bashere to his full potential.

But yeah, with that Idiot Ball Battle combined with the hundreds of pages of nothing happening, it's the perfect example of how to NOT WRITE A BOOK.

Not sure why you are yelling, but again the reason for him changing course at the end of the battle is explained. It's fine if you didn't like it but you either missed details or are choosing to leave them out for the purpose of the discussion.

[Kojiro]

Not sure why you are yelling, but again the reason for him changing course at the end of the battle is explained. It's fine if you didn't like it but you either missed details or are choosing to leave them out for the purpose of the discussion.

I'm not sure how Rand becoming a big, arrogant dick who thinks he's infallible and unstoppable because he's the motherfuckin' Dragon Reborn counts as an "explanation" but whatever. It simply hits me as the Idiot Ball in high gear.

[Toblakai]

Started out well, grew in strength, started meandering and losing it's way (around book 8), fell flat at the end. I was considering not bothering to read the final book because I had a feeling I wouldn't be satisfied. But I ended up reading it in order to get closure, and I wasn't satisfied.

How much of the end falling flat is because of a change in author or because the story was always destined to come up short will be an unresolved debate until the end of this age. But I think the story lost its way while Jordan was still in charge and writing, so that probably seals it for me and I don't completely blame Sanderson for not delivering.

I wonder if someone new to the series should read books 1-7 then get the last book out of the library and read the last 200 pages if that would actually be a good approach. I don't think you really miss much context, character development or plot detail by skipping 5 3/4 books. Or maybe read book 8 then skip to the end so you can see the series start to take it's downward slide.

It's not going to be a big debate because a strong majority like the work Sanderson did. It is fine you didn't like it but I wouldn't assume others feel the same.

BTW, if someone followed that crazy suggestion, they would be skipping 6 3/4 books as it is a 14 book series.

[Ser Eric]

I never liked Mat, even in the beginning. He frustrates me more than any other character. That scene to me was the point where I saw Jordan as jumping the shark with the taveren concept. It was just ridiculous to me and made Mat into even more of a caricature than a character. I don't often pull out the trope names, but if ever there was a Gary Stu dressed in Plot Armor, its Mat.

Now, I'm only on book 3 but my impression is completely the opposite. He's quite a realistic character, perhaps even more so than Rand or Perrin

[protar]

Now, I'm only on book 3 but my impression is completely the opposite. He's quite a realistic character, perhaps even more so than Rand or Perrin

In the first book at least I found Matt to be a complete cartoon character. He's just unbelievably immature and gullible. I find it hard to believe that an 18 year old, who has had to live a life of hard work and labour on a farm could be as Mat is. In future books, he matures but still retains a charming, mischievous streak and becomes much more likeable.

[Ser Eric]

In the first book at least I found Matt to be a complete cartoon character. He's just unbelievably immature and gullible. I find it hard to believe that an 18 year old, who has had to live a life of hard work and labour on a farm could be as Mat is. In future books, he matures but still retains a charming, mischievous streak and becomes much more likeable.

I don't remember. What did he do in the first book?

I'm liking him in book 3 so far. Sure, he's a bit immature but then again we were all 18 once upon a time.

[protar]

I don't remember. What did he do in the first book?

I'm liking him in book 3 so far. Sure, he's a bit immature but then again we were all 18 once upon a time.

The stuff in Shadar Logoth stands out particularly. This strange man pops up in the middle of the night in a haunted city telling you to follow him because he's got loads of treasure. Rand and Perrin don't want to go whereas Mat is ecstatic because Treasure! and the other two feel like they need to go along to keep Mat safe. IIRC he's also the one who convinces the other two to explore in the haunted city in the first place. No one is that stupid.

[SilentRoamer]

Actually it would be absurd to think he didn't have a good amount of training. His father was the best with that weapon in their area and won the contest every year. Additionally while Mat's luck did play a role, the match up of weapons(staff v. sword) was the main point. Hence the parable told directly after about how the best swordsman to ever live only ever lost one duel and that was to a farmer with a staff.

Personally I didn't like that Matt won that scene - I found it unreasonable despite the weapon advantages and other aspects.

Something not picked up on but I think is a crucial point in this discussion regarding Matts martial abilities:

Matt had the memories of god knows how many generals crammed into his little brain, tactics/leadership/morale all come to Matt easily. I would expect he would also get a significant amount of single combat battle knowledge unless my interpretation of Matts memories is incorrect.

[Toblakai]

Personally I didn't like that Matt won that scene - I found it unreasonable despite the weapon advantages and other aspects.

Something not picked up on but I think is a crucial point in this discussion regarding Matts martial abilities:

Matt had the memories of god knows how many generals crammed into his little brain, tactics/leadership/morale all come to Matt easily. I would expect he would also get a significant amount of single combat battle knowledge unless my interpretation of Matts memories is incorrect.

I could be wrong, but I believe that all of that does not get into his head until Book 4. The fighting scene was in Book 3.

[SilentRoamer]

Thanks for the potential/possible correction Toblakai.

I am not sure on some of the events in the books as I am a bit older than some of the boarders and it was probably 15-20 years ago that I read the first books in the series.

If this was as early as book 3 then this must be prior to a lot of the martial development we see in Gawyn? In particular his defeating of the three Bloodknives.

[Guy Kilmore]

I could be wrong, but I believe that all of that does not get into his head until Book 4. The fighting scene was in Book 3.

Matt actually starts struggling with the memories after being healed and before the fight. (And even before that he was quoting the lost tongue) He didn't know what they were and they were overwhelming him which led him to go through the twisted doorway and get those questions answered. It isn't until he goes through the second doorway that he gets "control" of them (or at least gets them filled).

[Suttree]

Matt actually starts struggling with the memories after being healed and before the fight. (And even before that he was quoting the lost tongue) He didn't know what they were and they were overwhelming him which led him to go through the twisted doorway and get those questions answered. It isn't until he goes through the second doorway that he gets "control" of them (or at least gets them filled).

Clarification here.

1. The earlier memories Mat has are from his Manetheren blood(either Aemon reborn or a descendent of Aemon).

The post trip to see the Finns memories came from specifically asking to have the holes in his memories filled. Those memories came from unrelated adventurers who had visited that realm over the years.

I'm not sure how Rand becoming a big, arrogant dick who thinks he's infallible and unstoppable because he's the motherfuckin' Dragon Reborn counts as an "explanation" but whatever. It simply hits me as the Idiot Ball in high gear.

If by "because he's the motherfuckin' Dragon Reborn" you meant he is already suffering a fast descent into madness from the taint/past life memories and additionally experiencing wildness of the mind/rash actions as a side effect from Callandor than you would be correct. Guessing that isn't the case however.

It's not going to be a big debate because a strong majority like the work Sanderson did. It is fine you didn't like it but I wouldn't assume others feel the same.

There is no assumption being made as there has clearly been huge ongoing debate within the fandom. I've seen a fair number of people actually state they would have preferred to simply have RJ's notes be released for the ending. Personally I think that's going way too far but at the same time one needs to take a realistic approach when looking at what we ended up with.

[Toblakai]

If by "because he's the motherfuckin' Dragon Reborn" you meant he is already suffering a fast descent into madness from the taint/past life memories and additionally experiencing wildness of the mind/rash actions as a side effect from Callandor than you would be correct. Guessing that isn't the case however.

Agreed. I had no issue with Rand's actions in Path of Daggers. It makes sense and sets up WInter's Night. However, I don't think the book works that well overall due to some of the other storylines.

There is no assumption being made as there has clearly been huge ongoing debate within the fandom. I've seen a fair number of people actually state they would have preferred to simply have RJ's notes be released for the ending. Personally I think that's going way too far but at the same time one needs to take a realistic approach when looking at what we ended up with.

I actually really enjoyed what Sanderson did, other than the Last Battle being too damn long and the Jordan written epilogue being too disjointed and short.

[messem]

Personally I didn't like that Matt won that scene - I found it unreasonable despite the weapon advantages and other aspects.

I did like it neither but at least it was used for good joke in the last book

(Mat telling Galad to let fight his companion against Trollocs with quarter-staffs)