Annulling Sansa and Tyrion's Marriage

[Northernmonkey]

Ned&Cat (both ways), Robb&Jeyne (both ways), Sigorn&Alys (Red Faith, probably followed up by Old Gods), Ramsay&FArya (Old Gods) confirmed, Ironborn strongly implied.

Plus Dany & Drogo and Dany & Hizdahr, although obviously it's not relevant in Westeros.

[Starks Bane]

however, we've seen the lord of winterfell marry in a sept so there is absolutely no reason to believe such a wedding would be considered invalid in the north.

Bingo. I know this isn't real life, but it would sort of like a Baptist wanting an annulment because the wedding was in a Catholic church.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Plus Dany & Drogo and Dany & Hizdahr, although obviously it's not relevant in Westeros.

Well, those may not be recognized as legal in Westeros, since they omitted the whole cloaking ceremony.

[jons nissa]

Bingo. I know this isn't real life, but it would sort of like a Baptist wanting an annulment because the wedding was in a Catholic church.

'cactly! :cool4:

what's more, it's putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. regardless of what church one marries in, it's the marriage certificate that would prove or lack of one that would disprove a marriage. likewise, it's the exchanging of cloaks that signifies being wedded, not where the exchange occurred.

[Maester Pedant]

I had always thought of the Sept marriages the legal way of going about marrying in addition to ceremonial for the believers. I had kind of assumed the Northerners who believed in the Old Gods still had Faith of Seven weddings because the Faith of the Seven is the official religion of Westeros.

Also, it's called a hymen. You guys don't have to say "maidenhead" just because it's written in the books. We don't live in a shire.

Actually, "maidenhead" can mean the hymen but also the more abstract notion of "virginity". So I'd rather use maidenhead.

[Modesty Lannister]

I don't see any problem with the annulment as far as High Septon is concerned. The real problem is Cersei's presence in KL. The second she is out of the game, the annulment can go on. LF knows that as well as we do.

[AlliYoyo]

Also, it's called a hymen. You guys don't have to say "maidenhead" just because it's written in the books. We don't live in a shire.

Well, I actually prefer the term maidenhead, as "hymen" sounds awfully clinical to me (which probably doesn't make any sense). Besides, Hymen was the Greek/Roman god of marriage.

[Starks Bane]

Well, I actually prefer the term maidenhead, as "hymen" sounds awfully clinical to me (which probably doesn't make any sense). Besides, Hymen was the Greek/Roman god of marriage.

Every time I hear the word "hymen" I hear "Hyman", like the name. So I guess it doesn't sound so clinical to me.

It doesn't bother me in a historical or fictional context, but for some reason it drives me nuts when real people today say and type it. Like the term "moon's blood", the cutest euphemism I dare say GRRM has thought up (I'm assuming he invented it.). But when people on discussion boards talk about a character's moon's blood all I can think is, it's called a period! You know what menstruation is you are an adult say period, SAY IT NOW.

Just a personal pet peeve. Just asked my husband about it and he agreed with you guys, so looks like I'm probably alone in my annoyance.

[Mourneblade]

The biggest obstacle to Sansa getting an annulment is being wanted for Regicide, even with Cersei out of power most of the Southern population considers her one of the conspirators in killing Joff.

As to the North tossing out the marriage on their own, well that would lead to most of current continent of Westeros to believe any children she bears would be bastards. That complicates things a great deal.

Given the quagmire that Westeros currently is, it will actually take a great many things to happen for Sansa to get her legal annulment.

[messem]

The biggest obstacle to Sansa getting an annulment is being wanted for Regicide, even with Cersei out of power most of the Southern population considers her one of the conspirators in killing Joff.

True, for that reason alone I expect we will see a dead fTyrion* soon.

* It works better with names like Arya and Aegon

[jons nissa]

True, for that reason alone I expect we will see a dead fTyrion* soon.

* It works better with names like Arya and Aegon

this hardly works since tyrion will inevitably return to westeros.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

True, for that reason alone I expect we will see a dead fTyrion* soon.

* It works better with names like Arya and Aegon

I'd rather expect a Tysha, fake or not. As the third party in that marriage triangle, and the only one not on the Most Wanted, her appearance would get the ball rolling.

[Pod The Impaler]

This gets brought up fairly regularly, and I often hear people say how hard it will be for Sansa to get her marriage annulled, and that she'll have to appeal to the high septon, but I disagree with this.

I disagree with the idea it would be hard as well.

1 - It was never consummated, a fact which both parties would attest to, and thanks to all the open rumours before Joffrey's death, would be widely believed.

2 - It was a forced marriage, not an arranged one. Both parties would also attest to it having been a political ploy, imposed on them against their wishes 9especially Sansa's). Robb certainly did not believe Sansa entered into it willingly, even if he did have to disinherit Sansa as a safeguard.

3 - From what we've seen both parties would gladly annul it, and have no desire to continue being wed.

Who would oppose annulling it? Perhaps only the High Sparrow would be so fanatical to say that what the Faith has done cannot be undone - but he is just as likely to see the wedding as a travesty, and declare it null and void without needing to be prompted.

[messem]

this hardly works since tyrion will inevitably return to westeros.

inevitably like in one of these days in the distant future?

The question is: Do the Westerosi know that Tyrion is still alive and will return?. The answer is: No! To remarry Sansa a dead dwarf is needed. Until Tyrion returns Sansa can have multiple children on her own. Legal consequences can be sorted out when he is back.

[new djinn]

Annulment by axe.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

This gets brought up fairly regularly, and I often hear people say how hard it will be for Sansa to get her marriage annulled, and that she'll have to appeal to the high septon, but I disagree with this.

The North don't even follow the seven, so why would they care what the high septon thinks? If it suits the Northern Lords then they will just declare the Sansa-Tyrion marriage invalid and there will be no need to go to the high septon, and Sansa will be free to marry Harry (or someone else). It's also worth noting that Sansa probably still has her maidenhead, so if the marriage wasn't consummated it will make the whole process a lot easier.

So basically I think this "she'll have to appeal to the high septon" stuff is rubbish. If Sansa marrying Harry (or someone else) is necessary for political reasons then the lords of The North can just declare the Sansa/Tyrion marriage invalid and remarry her without the high septons approval. It's not like the High Septon is going to send an army up North to stop the wedding.

How it's rubbish, when GRRM himself said so?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Minisa_Tully_and_Sansa:

Tigers14: btw, can a marriage be annulled without both parties present? and without sansa revealing who she really is?

GeoRR: no one needs to be present to annul a marriage

Tigers14: how?

GeoRR: but Sansa would need to request it

Tigers14: as sansa?

GeoRR: Well, why would a High Septon consider a request from anyone but the parties involved?

Tigers14: i mean she can't hide who she is. she has to request that her marriage, her being sansa stark, to tyrion lannister be annulled.

Tigers14: which would imply that the High Septon would need to know that Sansa Stark is requesting the annulment of her marriage.

Tigers14: Which would reveal, to a certain extent where Sansa is.

GeoRR: yes indeed

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Who would oppose annulling it? Perhaps only the High Sparrow would be so fanatical to say that what the Faith has done cannot be undone - but he is just as likely to see the wedding as a travesty, and declare it null and void without needing to be prompted.

The Faith on principle and most Lords out of self-interest. If annulment becomes common, all kinds of political trouble and inheritance issues creep up.

Widowhood is a far better solution for everybody but Tyrion, and that's what most people will try to make happen.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

inevitably like in one of these days in the distant future?

The question is: Do the Westerosi know that Tyrion is still alive and will return?. The answer is: No! To remarry Sansa a dead dwarf is needed. Until Tyrion returns Sansa can have multiple children on her own. Legal consequences can be sorted out when he is back.

Tyrion is how Dany's forces will take Casterly Rock. There's a 90% chance he will in fact return to Westeros, if only for this reason.

There may be another option here. Tysha (real or fake) could show up requesting the annulment of her marriage to Tyrion. If Tywin didn't follow through on annulling it before, Tysha would be within her rights to request annulment. After all, who wants to be married to a convicted traitor, kingslayer and kinslayer? I'm not 100% sure on this but I think it would automatically include the annulment of Tyrion and Sansa's marriage because his marriage to Tysha hadn't yet been ruled invalid at the time his wedding to Sansa took place.

It's also possible that Tysha could come forward with a child and claim Casterly Rock based on her being Tyrion's true wife. If her marriage was ruled valid, then Sansa's is automatically invalid. Granted Cersei would fight this as hard as she could because she wouldn't want Tyrion's child getting Lannisterland.

[jons nissa]

I'd rather expect a Tysha, fake or not. As the third party in that marriage triangle, and the only one not on the Most Wanted, her appearance would get the ball rolling.

this is definitely more likely than a fake tyrion. that would be disastrous.

[Michael Herman]

Vows said a sword point have no validity, she was a hostage of the Lannisters and had no choice but to consent, it was against the will of the head of her house and was unconsummated, I don't think it would cause too much of a stir if Sansa just conveniently ignored it.