Annulling Sansa and Tyrion's Marriage

[Starks Bane]

But not all of us get all exercised over some obsolescent words used in a work of fantasy. In this situation "hymen" simply doesn't work stylistically. Like using "uterus" for "womb".

Like I wrote earlier, it doesn't bother me in the books. It makes perfect sense in that context. I even think using the word "flowering" for menarche is pretty cute in the books. It just rubs me the wrong way when real people use it. It just sounds silly to me.

Feel free to ignore my opinion on the matter, sir or madam.

[Hotpie Targaryen]

It's because it's forced. In the books it's natural...it's the way they speak, their wordchoice, etc. but I doubt anyone has ever heard or said "Oh yes, when I flowered I never thought I'd get married, but then Nick took my maidenhead and I'm totes on board with it now."

[Light a wight tonight]

Like I wrote earlier, it doesn't bother me in the books. It makes perfect sense in that context. I even think using the word "flowering" for menarche is pretty cute in the books. It just rubs me the wrong way when real people use it. It just sounds silly to me.

Feel free to ignore my opinion on the matter, sir or madam.

OK, I'll give you real people saying "maidenhead" in everyday speech, but I can't remember ever hearing the term used conversationally. I have to agree that it would sound silly, though the word itself would bother me less than my perception of the mindset of the person who said it. (Is this person stuck in medieval cosplay?)

As to your opinion, it's as worthy as anybody's.

[juanml82]

I disagree with the idea it would be hard as well.

1 - It was never consummated, a fact which both parties would attest to, and thanks to all the open rumours before Joffrey's death, would be widely believed.

2 - It was a forced marriage, not an arranged one. Both parties would also attest to it having been a political ploy, imposed on them against their wishes 9especially Sansa's). Robb certainly did not believe Sansa entered into it willingly, even if he did have to disinherit Sansa as a safeguard.

3 - From what we've seen both parties would gladly annul it, and have no desire to continue being wed.

Who would oppose annulling it? Perhaps only the High Sparrow would be so fanatical to say that what the Faith has done cannot be undone - but he is just as likely to see the wedding as a travesty, and declare it null and void without needing to be prompted.

I wouldn't put too much stock in #2, as much as it pains some fans. A lot of Westerosi marriages, specially in times of war, are to a degree, forced. I don't even see there is a distinction between "forced" and "arranged" in the Westerosi mind.

The High Sparrow would probably annul it, provided Sansa or Tyrion walk into the Sept of Baelor and ask for it. Which is kind of risky for them.

Tyrion is how Dany's forces will take Casterly Rock. There's a 90% chance he will in fact return to Westeros, if only for this reason.

There may be another option here. Tysha (real or fake) could show up requesting the annulment of her marriage to Tyrion. If Tywin didn't follow through on annulling it before, Tysha would be within her rights to request annulment. After all, who wants to be married to a convicted traitor, kingslayer and kinslayer? I'm not 100% sure on this but I think it would automatically include the annulment of Tyrion and Sansa's marriage because his marriage to Tysha hadn't yet been ruled invalid at the time his wedding to Sansa took place.

It's also possible that Tysha could come forward with a child and claim Casterly Rock based on her being Tyrion's true wife. If her marriage was ruled valid, then Sansa's is automatically invalid. Granted Cersei would fight this as hard as she could because she wouldn't want Tyrion's child getting Lannisterland.

How could Tysha ask for an annulment? The marriage was consummated.

Vows said a sword point have no validity, she was a hostage of the Lannisters and had no choice but to consent, it was against the will of the head of her house and was unconsummated, I don't think it would cause too much of a stir if Sansa just conveniently ignored it.

If vows said at sword point have no validity, how is it that the Night's Watch even exists?

From time to time I pass through Maidenhead when I'm in UK and I can't help giggling, a city full of blushing English roses. :devil:

No, seriously that male infatuation with virginity is a big enigma to me, are they so very afraid of comparison or of sexually competent women?

In Westeros? Female promiscuity will be looked down, at least among those with something to inherit, as it can lead to the woman passing someone else's child as the trueborn child. Bastards born from men don't carry that risk. See Cersei/Robert and Catelyn/Ned.

I think two things conflagrate when this subject is discussed. First, Sansa fans who don't want any more bad things happening to her favorite chapter (and refusing to accept that, this being ASOIAF, more bad things are likely to happen to most, if not all, characters, including Sansa). Second, some people have the possibility of divorce so internalized that they can't accept the possibility of a fictional society in which divorce is simply not an option 99.95% of the times. Even more, a fictional society in which the entire political system depends on divorces not being an option. So, when confronted to the idea that, because a fictional character whom they might identify with for whatever reason is screwed because she was forced to marry someone she didn't want, they aren't willing to accept the fictional world of Westeros works that way. See my signature for more details on the subject.

On the Sansa-Tyrion marriage, both bigamy on Tyrion's part and non consummation could easily annul the marriage if both parties weren't fugitives. I'd be wary about Sansa's hymen being checked by a septa - it might already be broken from horse riding.

[Starks Bane]

OK, I'll give you real people saying "maidenhead" in everyday speech, but I can't remember ever hearing the term used conversationally. I have to agree that it would sound silly, though the word itself would bother me less than my perception of the mindset of the person who said it. (Is this person stuck in medieval cosplay?)

As to your opinion, it's as worthy as anybody's.

You didn't actually read my first few posts about this subject. You're free to go back and read them of course, but don't argue against a point I've never made.

[Newstar]

This is more of a meta argument, but from a plot perspective, GRRM doesn't need to annul Sansa and Tyrion's marriage unless he intends Sansa to remarry before the end of the books or he intends both Tyrion and Sansa to survive the series. All indications are that Sansa is disillusioned with marriages in general and political marriages in particular, and that her political skills will enable her to take control of her own destiny and avoid being remarried against her will, so I think she won't be remarrying anytime soon. GRRM seems to have gone to a fair bit of trouble to ensure not only that Sansa has a "get out of marriage free" card in the form of her marriage to Tyrion, but that that is coupled with a real desire on her part to avoid remarriage and a growing ability to control her own destiny. All of that suggests that GRRM has no intention of marrying Sansa off before the the end of the books, rendering an annulment unnecessary.

All indications are also that Tyrion will die before the end of the series, in between kinslaying and greyscale, and Sansa could easily be killed off as well. So why would GRRM possibly bother with an annulment? All he has to do is wait until ADOS and the problem will take care of itself.

[Light a wight tonight]

You didn't actually read my first few posts about this subject. You're free to go back and read them of course, but don't argue against a point I've never made.

Jeez, I already conceded that point. Maybe we both need to read the other person's posts more carefully.

[The Evil Queen]

Every time I hear the word "hymen" I hear "Hyman", like the name. So I guess it doesn't sound so clinical to me.

It doesn't bother me in a historical or fictional context, but for some reason it drives me nuts when real people today say and type it. Like the term "moon's blood", the cutest euphemism I dare say GRRM has thought up (I'm assuming he invented it.). But when people on discussion boards talk about a character's moon's blood all I can think is, it's called a period! You know what menstruation is you are an adult say period, SAY IT NOW.

Just a personal pet peeve. Just asked my husband about it and he agreed with you guys, so looks like I'm probably alone in my annoyance.

Actually Moons Blood, and others such as Moon Flow and Moon Cycle are legit terms used for a long time in the real world. Moons Blood/Flow/Cycle references the fact that the menstrual cycle generally lasts 28 days, just like the moons cycle, and the Flow itself lasts about 3 days like the full moon (for the average woman). The terms are still used today. Others like "flowers" are also old terms commonly used at certain points in time (its even used in the bible). I don't know how words like "period" came into common usage but it certainly isn't a technical term, its pure colloquialism, just as Moons Blood is.

It's all very much akin to using "seeds" instead of semen or sperm. Or even "fuck" instead of "copulate" or "sexual intercourse" lol. They're all colloquial terms rather than clinical terms, and I guess its personal preference as to which one each of us will use, either in real life or in the context of the stories.

[Light a wight tonight]

No, seriously that male infatuation with virginity is a big enigma to me, are they so very afraid of comparison or of sexually competent women?

I think that male infatuation with virginity is overstated. IMO it's an idea whose time has passed, if it ever had some reason for being.

In one of the Perigrine books the peasants in Sapodilla wouldn't marry virgins because it was bad luck to get blood on one's member.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

How could Tysha ask for an annulment? The marriage was consummated.

<snip

Non-consummation is the main grounds for an annulment but is by no means the only one. Both Tyrion and Tysha were underage, did not have their parents' permission to wed, and the septon who performed the ceremony was drunk at the time.

I've seen it argued that Tywin had the marriage annulled based on the fact that Tyrion was underage and wed without his father's permission, but I don't recall that being in the books anywhere. Of course Tywin didn't say anything about Tyrion being married already when he was arranging the match with Sansa, but it could be that Tywin simply doesn't care, never considered Tyrion's first marriage valid, and figured the only person who could object (Tysha) wouldn't dare to say anything.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think that male infatuation with virginity is overstated. IMO it's an idea whose time has passed, if it ever had some reason for being.

In one of the Perigrine books the peasants in Sapodilla wouldn't marry virgins because it was bad luck to get blood on one's member.

I don't know about for regular people but princes had to marry virgins to ensure the bride 1) wasn't carrying someone else's child and planning to pass it off as the heir, and 2) didn't have any STDs to share. Not very romantic but highly practical at the time.

As to a general male infatuation, that would depend on the man. To some it's important, to some it isn't. It may be rooted in the idea that a virgin won't compare her husband's skills to that of another man because she (in theory) has no experience on which to draw for said comparison. Or you know, being "the only one."

[The Evil Queen]

Non-consummation is the main grounds for an annulment but is by no means the only one. Both Tyrion and Tysha were underage, did not have their parents' permission to wed, and the septon who performed the ceremony was drunk at the time.

I've seen it argued that Tywin had the marriage annulled based on the fact that Tyrion was underage and wed without his father's permission, but I don't recall that being in the books anywhere. Of course Tywin didn't say anything about Tyrion being married already when he was arranging the match with Sansa, but it could be that Tywin simply doesn't care, never considered Tyrion's first marriage valid, and figured the only person who could object (Tysha) wouldn't dare to say anything.

We don't have Tywins POV, at that stage only Tyrion and Sansas, and Tyrion was made to think that Tysha was dead so she wouldn't have been brought up at all in regards to Tyrions new wedding.

But according to that SSM link earlier in thread, GRRM says that whilst neither party has to be present for an annulment, still at least one of the parties has to make the request. So could Tywin have had it annulled without Tyrion or Tysha requesting it?

[juanml82]

Non-consummation is the main grounds for an annulment but is by no means the only one. Both Tyrion and Tysha were underage, did not have their parents' permission to wed, and the septon who performed the ceremony was drunk at the time.

I've seen it argued that Tywin had the marriage annulled based on the fact that Tyrion was underage and wed without his father's permission, but I don't recall that being in the books anywhere. Of course Tywin didn't say anything about Tyrion being married already when he was arranging the match with Sansa, but it could be that Tywin simply doesn't care, never considered Tyrion's first marriage valid, and figured the only person who could object (Tysha) wouldn't dare to say anything.

I don't think there is any point in the books in which the parent's permission is said to be a requirement, at least from a formal point of view. Of course, the father could expel the offending son or daughter from the household, but it was never mentioned as a way to annul a marriage.

We don't have Tywins POV, at that stage only Tyrion and Sansas, and Tyrion was made to think that Tysha was dead so she wouldn't have been brought up at all in regards to Tyrions new wedding.

But according to that SSM link earlier in thread, GRRM says that whilst neither party has to be present for an annulment, still at least one of the parties has to make the request. So could Tywin have had it annulled without Tyrion or Tysha requesting it?

My belief that it wasn't properly annulled is the way Tyrion phrased it. He said something along the lines of "it was as it never happened", which does refer to an annulment, but why would he just say "he talked the High Septon into annulling it"? He's a highly educated Westerosi, why is he coy about how it ended?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

We don't have Tywins POV, at that stage only Tyrion and Sansas, and Tyrion was made to think that Tysha was dead so she wouldn't have been brought up at all in regards to Tyrions new wedding.

But according to that SSM link earlier in thread, GRRM says that whilst neither party has to be present for an annulment, still at least one of the parties has to make the request. So could Tywin have had it annulled without Tyrion or Tysha requesting it?

Sure thing. Using first, a knife and second, a shovel. He didn't tell Tyrion the truth because that wouldn't fit into his story about Tysha being a whore he hired.

[Starks Bane]

Actually Moons Blood, and others such as Moon Flow and Moon Cycle are legit terms used for a long time in the real world. Moons Blood/Flow/Cycle references the fact that the menstrual cycle generally lasts 28 days, just like the moons cycle, and the Flow itself lasts about 3 days like the full moon (for the average woman).

Oh my Gods, I just.... I had no idea, m'Lady.

[Light a wight tonight]

I don't know about for regular people but princes had to marry virgins to ensure the bride 1) wasn't carrying someone else's child and planning to pass it off as the heir, and 2) didn't have any STDs to share. Not very romantic but highly practical at the time.

As to a general male infatuation, that would depend on the man. To some it's important, to some it isn't. It may be rooted in the idea that a virgin won't compare her husband's skills to that of another man because she (in theory) has no experience on which to draw for said comparison. Or you know, being "the only one."

First point: The "bloody sheet" test has been fooled almost since it was initiated. Pigeon's egg full of blood plus some alum for tightness is one way. And people were well aware of what 'full term" meant even way back when. Likewise, as was brought out when discussing Margaery, normal activities can rupture a hymen.

Second point, there are probably multiple reasons but I can't think of any really good ones. Maybe Mom is trying to persuade Sonny Boy that women are to be placed on a pedestal and that any who fall short of pristine purity are sluts.

[Pod The Impaler]

Vows said a sword point have no validity, she was a hostage of the Lannisters and had no choice but to consent, it was against the will of the head of her house and was unconsummated, I don't think it would cause too much of a stir if Sansa just conveniently ignored it.

odd that sansa's mother and brother don't see it that way. they definitely thought it was valid and definitely didn't ignore it.

They did see it that way, but the plain fact is the Lannister side would claim it was valid anyway, and use her as a weapon. This would be the same propaganda angle that would have said Sansa was a "guest" of Joffrey, and Eddard really did think Joffrey was the rightful king before they lopped his head off.

I bet at some point Sansa will definitely not ignore it since there is no better shield against other marriage plots.

Alas, yes. Nice landmine for Littlefinger to step on, what with his being officially loyal to the Iron Throne and all.

I wouldn't put too much stock in #2, as much as it pains some fans. A lot of Westerosi marriages, specially in times of war, are to a degree, forced. I don't even see there is a distinction between "forced" and "arranged" in the Westerosi mind.

How could Tysha ask for an annulment? The marriage was consummated.

You should ask Asha how her decreed & absentee "marriage" to Erik Anvilbreaker is going. That seal which stood in for her must have been notarized, heh.

As for Tysha, that actually was annulled. Officially because the septon was drunk - in actuality because Tywin was pissed off and probably threatened to feed the septon to the crabs.

[Modesty Lannister]

The main obstacle for annulment of the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa is Cersei. As long as she is alive, Sansa cannot return to KL. But she will not be alive for long. Tyrells killed Joff with LF, so there would be no obstacle for her to return to KL, confess in front of High septon all about her marriage, get examined and the marriage annulled. High septon would be sympathetic to Cersei's former hostage who was forced into a marriage with "a degenerate regicidal and patricidal dwarf". Maybe Sansa will not show her face openly before the annulment is done, but once she gets the green light from a High Septon she is as white as snow. Why do you think LF gave her all these religious books to read? Because of the cover story he invented? Just partly. He feeds Sansa only the information he wants her to know. Sansa remarks on it herself.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How could Tysha ask for an annulment? The marriage was consummated.

She couldn't. But she (or her child of the right age) could ask if her marriage is still legal, since she heard Tyrion married another. That would get the ball rolling on Sansa's annulment.

I think that male infatuation with virginity is overstated. IMO it's an idea whose time has passed, if it ever had some reason for being.

It ensures that the first child will be yours (a genetic advantage) and that you won't contract an STD from her. Not much of a reason today, or ever, but a reason.

I've seen it argued that Tywin had the marriage annulled based on the fact that Tyrion was underage and wed without his father's permission, but I don't recall that being in the books anywhere. Of course Tywin didn't say anything about Tyrion being married already when he was arranging the match with Sansa, but it could be that Tywin simply doesn't care, never considered Tyrion's first marriage valid, and figured the only person who could object (Tysha) wouldn't dare to say anything.

It isn't. Tywin didn't went through the proper procedure with the HS or a Council of Faith, just swept it under the rug with some local septons telling shit.

But according to that SSM link earlier in thread, GRRM says that whilst neither party has to be present for an annulment, still at least one of the parties has to make the request. So could Tywin have had it annulled without Tyrion or Tysha requesting it?

No, he couldn't.

Sure thing. Using first, a knife and second, a shovel. He didn't tell Tyrion the truth because that wouldn't fit into his story about Tysha being a whore he hired.

Well, if Tysha isn't confirmed dead, Tyrion is still considered married to her in the eyes of the Faith.

As for Tysha, that actually was annulled. Officially because the septon was drunk - in actuality because Tywin was pissed off and probably threatened to feed the septon to the crabs.

No, it wasn't. Tywin made up shit, waving away the laws of the Faith and would have gotten away with it facing 99.99% of all High Septons. But the High Sparrow has principles and adheres to them.

[Indigocell]

Personally, I think there is a very strong case for annulment

- Never consummated

- There was never any intent on the Stark side for Sansa to marry Tyrion

- Sansa's consent was conditioned through the threat of violence and force

There is also the possibility of Tysha still being alive, but I don't even think that is necessary for a strong argument for annulment.