Annulling Sansa and Tyrion's Marriage

[jons nissa]

Vows said a sword point have no validity, she was a hostage of the Lannisters and had no choice but to consent, it was against the will of the head of her house and was unconsummated, I don't think it would cause too much of a stir if Sansa just conveniently ignored it.

odd that sansa's mother and brother don't see it that way. they definitely thought it was valid and definitely didn't ignore it. littlefinger doesn't seem to be ignoring it either. and, of course, neither is sansa.

[MasterJack]

Tyrion and Sansa will end up together, they dont need to cancel their marriage.

[AlliYoyo]

Every time I hear the word "hymen" I hear "Hyman", like the name. So I guess it doesn't sound so clinical to me.

It doesn't bother me in a historical or fictional context, but for some reason it drives me nuts when real people today say and type it. Like the term "moon's blood", the cutest euphemism I dare say GRRM has thought up (I'm assuming he invented it.). But when people on discussion boards talk about a character's moon's blood all I can think is, it's called a period! You know what menstruation is you are an adult say period, SAY IT NOW.

Just a personal pet peeve. Just asked my husband about it and he agreed with you guys, so looks like I'm probably alone in my annoyance.

GRRM didn't invent the term "moon blood", I know that Jean M. Auel used it in her Earth's Children series, and it's probably been used elsewhere as well. As euphemisms go, it makes sense as the "average" cycle lasts about the same time as a moons turn.

And I semi-agree with you about "moon blood". It does seem a little jarring to say. But at the same time, I find modern terms like "period" and "pregnant" jarring in the context of the ASOIAF universe, like it's wrong to use them. Heck, I'm not even sure the word "pregnant" has been used in the books.

[Mourneblade]

Vows said a sword point have no validity, she was a hostage of the Lannisters and had no choice but to consent, it was against the will of the head of her house and was unconsummated, I don't think it would cause too much of a stir if Sansa just conveniently ignored it.

The King gave her away and the High Septon married them. As the Starks were attainted, Sansa was declared a ward of the King.

It is Valid.

[Woman of War]

Every time I hear the word "hymen" I hear "Hyman", like the name. So I guess it doesn't sound so clinical to me.

It doesn't bother me in a historical or fictional context, but for some reason it drives me nuts when real people today say and type it. Like the term "moon's blood", the cutest euphemism I dare say GRRM has thought up (I'm assuming he invented it.). But when people on discussion boards talk about a character's moon's blood all I can think is, it's called a period! You know what menstruation is you are an adult say period, SAY IT NOW.

Just a personal pet peeve. Just asked my husband about it and he agreed with you guys, so looks like I'm probably alone in my annoyance.

No, you are not alone. i really dislike it if people can only talk in euphemisms about the female body.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Remember, the seven are the gods with the rules. Essentially you can do what you want in the old faith. The gods see all, the gods know all. So its between you and the gods. Eg. The Boltons lie to the gods with the Fake Arya marriage but the Gods know its not Arya therefore the marriage is not valid. You cannot lie to a heart tree.

I had always thought of the Sept marriages the legal way of going about marrying in addition to ceremonial for the believers. I had kind of assumed the Northerners who believed in the Old Gods still had Faith of Seven weddings because the Faith of the Seven is the official religion of Westeros.

Also, it's called a hymen. You guys don't have to say "maidenhead" just because it's written in the books. We don't live in a shire.

I live in the historic county of Cheshire :unsure:

[Starks Bane]

I live in the historic county of Cheshire :unsure:

But not Maidenhead?

[Woman of War]

From time to time I pass through Maidenhead when I'm in UK and I can't help giggling, a city full of blushing English roses. :devil:

No, seriously that male infatuation with virginity is a big enigma to me, are they so very afraid of comparison or of sexually competent women?

[Annara Snow]

The King gave her away and the High Septon married them. As the Starks were attainted, Sansa was declared a ward of the King.

It is Valid.

Not to people who don't recognize King Joffrey as "valid". The Starks and their supporters obviously belong to that category, or are you claiming that Robb and Cat considered themselves and Ned traitors?!

odd that sansa's mother and brother don't see it that way. they definitely thought it was valid and definitely didn't ignore it. littlefinger doesn't seem to be ignoring it either. and, of course, neither is sansa.

No, they didn't. They just couldn't have done anything about it without defeating the Lannisters and freeing Sansa. They could have said that the marriage was not valid, but that wouldn't have stopped the Lannisters saying that it is. It's not like the North was going to embrace Tyrion Lannister or that the Lannisters were expecting it anyway, they were just looking for a justification for their power grab.

Now, if Robb and Cat have gotten Sansa back and Tyrion had escaped, do you really think they were going to hold the marriage valid?

Littlefinger pretty much is ignoring it. He just thinks that Tyrion will be dead soon so it's a moot point. He's already making new matches for Sansa.

And Sansa herself is definitely ignoring it. She doesn't consider herself married at all and considers it something in the past that she is relieved to have escaped from. She repeatedly refers to being married to Tyrion in past tense, despite him being alive. The only times she refers to herself being married in the present is when she's using it as an excuse not to get married to someone else.

[Woman of War]

And Sansa herself is definitely ignoring it. She doesn't consider herself married at all and considers it something in the past that she is relieved to have escaped from. She repeatedly refers to being married to Tyrion in past tense, despite him being alive. The only times she refers to herself being married in the present is when she's using it as an excuse not to get married to someone else.

I bet at some point Sansa will definitely not ignore it since there is no better shield against other marriage plots. She may even conveniently forget about that stupid rumor that she and Tyrion never consummated, ts ts.

[Mourneblade]

Not to people who don't recognize King Joffrey as "valid". The Starks and their supporters obviously belong to that category, or are you claiming that Robb and Cat considered themselves and Ned traitors?!

I would agree except it was the High Septon that Wed them. Even if you attaint Joff you still need the High Septon to annul. That is why Robb never made a proclamation invalidating the wedding, he could not fight Joff AND The Faith.

[Light a wight tonight]

Yes, Sansa will be absolutely thrilled about the idea to be free for someone's next marriage plot!

Precisely. Right now Sansa is Lady Lannister, which is to her advantage. If LF wants her to marry Harry he'd be the one to jump through the hoops to get the marriage annulled. Doing so would let the world know that she's in the Vale, which he doesn't want.

Now, if Alayne Stone were to marry Harry that would be different, but then she'd have no claim on Winterfell, and if it were to be announced that she was Sansa after the fact the marriage to Harry would be declared bigamous, and therefor illegal.

Either LF's plan won't work out as he thinks or it's very different from what we've been led to believe. I'm sure that Tyrion won't cooperate by getting himself killed.

[Starks Bane]

Now, if Alayne Stone were to marry Harry that would be different, but then she'd have no claim on Winterfell, and if it were to be announced that she was Sansa after the fact the marriage to Harry would be declared bigamous, and therefor illegal.

Would it? I didn't think polygamy was illegal in Westeros, just discouraged and unorthodox.

Have we discovered a future plot point?!

[Light a wight tonight]

Also, it's called a hymen. You guys don't have to say "maidenhead" just because it's written in the books. We don't live in a shire.

Hymen is a medical term. Just Greek for "membrane". There's a class of insect called Hymenoptera, membraneous-winged. Not sure what the Anglo-Saxon word for that part of the female anatomy was. I'm pretty sure that maidenhead was intitially a term for virginity, which is Latin-derived.

From Wikipedia for "maidenhead":

• virginity (maidenhood), with the "head" having nothing to do with the body part and being a cognate to German -heit and Scandinavian -het.

[Mourneblade]

Would it? I didn't think polygamy was illegal in Westeros, just discouraged and unorthodox.

Have we discovered a future plot point?!

You are right Bigomy is not illegal just looked down upon, unless your a Targaryen lol.

[Light a wight tonight]

Would it? I didn't think polygamy was illegal in Westeros, just discouraged and unorthodox.

Have we discovered a future plot point?!

The High Sparrow is nothing if not orthodox.

[Light a wight tonight]

You are right Bigomy is not illegal just looked down upon, unless your a Targaryen lol.

You have a copy of the Westerosi legal code in front of you? Thought not. Actually they seem to go by custom rather than written law, and we see nobody in Westeros currently in a polygamous marriage, and the historical Targ ones were all polygynous as far as I can remember, none being polyandrous.

[Starks Bane]

Hymen is a medical term. Just Greek for "membrane". There's a class of insect called Hymenoptera, membraneous-winged. Not sure what the Anglo-Saxon word for that part of the female anatomy was. I'm pretty sure that maidenhead was intitially a term for virginity, which is Latin-derived.

From Wikipedia for "maidenhead":

• virginity (maidenhood), with the "head" having nothing to do with the body part and being a cognate to German -heit and Scandinavian -het.

Thank you for the lesson, but I can google just as well as you.

But you know just as well as I do that the term maidenhead is used interchangeably both historically and in fiction. "Breaking her maidenhead" and "examining her maidenhead" refers to a hymen. "Losing her maidenhead to a horse" does not mean losing virginity to a horse. It means breaking a hymen. A broken hymen does not mean a loss of virginity, just a possible indication. That's just as true today as it was in the middle ages.

You are an adult. You know this, I know this, we all know this.

[Light a wight tonight]

You are an adult. You know this, I know this, we all know this.

But not all of us get all exercised over some obsolescent words used in a work of fantasy. In this situation "hymen" simply doesn't work stylistically. Like using "uterus" for "womb".

[Mourneblade]

You have a copy of the Westerosi legal code in front of you? Thought not. Actually they seem to go by custom rather than written law, and we see nobody in Westeros currently in a polygamous marriage, and the historical Targ ones were all polygynous as far as I can remember, none being polyandrous.

I never said that it was not one male plus two females under the Targs. However before you preach legal code to me, you might want to apply it to yourself first before declaring something illegal. If my statement cannot be substantiated neither can yours.