Annulling Sansa and Tyrion's Marriage

[Mithras]

Dwarf's penny.

I think Penny is either the daughter of Tyrion from Tysha, or Tyrion will pass her as his own trueborn daughter from his marriage to Tysha. So, she will be used to claim that Tyrion-Sansa marriage was illegal and void. The marriage was never consummated anyway. Tysha may or may not surface up alive. I think Tyrion might want to do this for several reasons. Such as:

- Trying to secure a safe and wealthy place for Penny (after Tyrion realizes his greyscale, I think he will be more likely to do this)

- Removing himself from Sansa marriage might be a price paid to the Northern Lords if Tyrion wants their support for something (not necessarily in favor of Dany - remember the treason for gold).

- Or he might want to do this for only to be pain in the ass. They never let the dwarf take the CR and Tyrion might want to have Penny inheriting the CR just to show a middle finger from the afterlife. Being betrayed by his own family changed him a lot and mostly not for the good. I expect Gerion to return as the Corsair King and who can say that he is still the beloved, nice uncle Tyrion knew once? I think he was betrayed by his crew on Tywin's orders, they might even threw him to the sea to die.

[Modesty Lannister]

- Trying to secure a safe and wealthy place for Penny (after Tyrion realizes his greyscale, I think he will be more likely to do this)

How did you come to the conclusion that Tyrion is infected by greyscale? He is not showing any signs.

[Mithras]

How did you come to the conclusion that Tyrion is infected by greyscale? He is not showing any signs.

“How long must I continue to torture myself? When will we be certain that I’m clean?”

“Truly?” said the Halfmaester. “Never. You swallowed half the river. You may be going grey even now, turning to stone from inside out, starting with your heart and lungs. If so, pricking your toes and bathing in vinegar will not save you."

I don't think GRRM wrote this stuff without a purpose.

[Modesty Lannister]

“How long must I continue to torture myself? When will we be certain that I’m clean?”

“Truly?” said the Halfmaester. “Never. You swallowed half the river. You may be going grey even now, turning to stone from inside out, starting with your heart and lungs. If so, pricking your toes and bathing in vinegar will not save you."

I don't think GRRM wrote this stuff without a purpose.

JonCon is infected. Tyrion is showing no signs. You are right not to disregard a POTENTIAL infection. But, you are not treating it as something potential. You are treating it as a fact. And it isn't a fact. Everything else in your post 81 is pure speculation that has no basis in the text and no foreshadowing. Your musing on Gerion is more than a speculation. It goes against Tywin's character. He manipulates his family as a patriarch, but he never harmed any of them. He puts family before his own wishes all the time. I don't want to offend you, I really don't, but Gerion bit is pure fanfic.

[Mithras]

JonCon is infected. Tyrion is showing no signs. You are right not to disregard a POTENTIAL infection. But, you are not treating it as something potential. You are treating it as a fact. And it isn't a fact. Everything else in your post 81 is pure speculation that has no basis in the text and no foreshadowing. Your musing on Gerion is more than a speculation. It goes against Tywin's character. He manipulates his family as a patriarch, but he never harmed any of them. He puts family before his own wishes all the time. I don't want to offend you, I really don't, but Gerion bit is pure fanfic.

I apologize if I sounded otherwise but I never claimed that my post is more than pure speculation. I never perceived Tywin's character as you described. Could you please elaborate on this?

[Modesty Lannister]

I apologize if I sounded otherwise but I never claimed that my post is more than pure speculation. I never perceived Tywin's character as you described. Could you please elaborate on this?

Well, I've already said it. Tywin threats himself and his family as pawns in service of the family. He gives them orders and they have to obey. But, he never harmed anyone ever. He wants to send Tyrion to the Wall. Tyrion is obsessed with Tywin's alleged hate towards him. Outside Tyrion's head, what actually happened. Tywin didn't kill him when he was a boy, he raised him in CR, not somewhere far away (note that George V raised his epileptic son Johnny on a faraway estate and that was 20th century), he gave him na unlimited access to financial resources, he started a war when Catelyn abducted him, he made him the acting Hand, he made him master of coin. Not bad for a horrible father. He didn't allow him to marry a whore and he was exceedingly cruel about it, but that's who Tywin is. Especially when you take what Tytos did into account. Also, Tywin did all he did in life for his family. His sister Genna tells us a lot about it. I can make you a list if you like, but I think it is obvious from the books. And Tywin never shies away from taking the blame if it promotes interests of his House. He is no kinslayer and there is no hint that he was at odds with Gerion. So, you tell me what motive Tywin would have to kill Gerion? That's your speculation, not mine.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Dwarf's penny.

I think Penny is either the daughter of Tyrion from Tysha, or Tyrion will pass her as his own trueborn daughter from his marriage to Tysha. So, she will be used to claim that Tyrion-Sansa marriage was illegal and void. The marriage was never consummated anyway. Tysha may or may not surface up alive. I think Tyrion might want to do this for several reasons. Such as:

- Trying to secure a safe and wealthy place for Penny (after Tyrion realizes his greyscale, I think he will be more likely to do this)

- Removing himself from Sansa marriage might be a price paid to the Northern Lords if Tyrion wants their support for something (not necessarily in favor of Dany - remember the treason for gold).

- Or he might want to do this for only to be pain in the ass. They never let the dwarf take the CR and Tyrion might want to have Penny inheriting the CR just to show a middle finger from the afterlife. Being betrayed by his own family changed him a lot and mostly not for the good. I expect Gerion to return as the Corsair King and who can say that he is still the beloved, nice uncle Tyrion knew once? I think he was betrayed by his crew on Tywin's orders, they might even threw him to the sea to die.

Exceedingly unlikely. Penny is way too old for that.

Furthermore, if Tyrion would try to secure a safe and wealthy place for Penny, he wouldn't drop her in that particular kind of lions' den. She'd be such an insult to the Westerlands nobility, she'd envy Elia and Lady Hornwood both after experiencing the backlash.

[Mithras]

Well, I've already said it. Tywin threats himself and his family as pawns in service of the family. He gives them orders and they have to obey. But, he never harmed anyone ever. He wants to send Tyrion to the Wall. Tyrion is obsessed with Tywin's alleged hate towards him. Outside Tyrion's head, what actually happened. Tywin didn't kill him when he was a boy, he raised him in CR, not somewhere far away (note that George V raised his epileptic son Johnny on a faraway estate and that was 20th century), he gave him na unlimited access to financial resources, he started a war when Catelyn abducted him, he made him the acting Hand, he made him master of coin. Not bad for a horrible father. He didn't allow him to marry a whore and he was exceedingly cruel about it, but that's who Tywin is. Especially when you take what Tytos did into account. Also, Tywin did all he did in life for his family. His sister Genna tells us a lot about it. I can make you a list if you like, but I think it is obvious from the books. And Tywin never shies away from taking the blame if it promotes interests of his House. He is no kinslayer and there is no hint that he was at odds with Gerion. So, you tell me what motive Tywin would have to kill Gerion? That's your speculation, not mine.

For me, Tywin punishes those who shame the family severely. He is blinded by the humiliation his family suffered in his father's reign. It is such an obsession that he never smiled his entire life until the horrible grin of his corpse. He hated Tyrion for being a dwarf. He hated him for whoremongering openly. And he hated him for marrying a simple girl because it was a great shame according to him. He dubbed Gerion's journey as "fool's quest". I think it is in his character to get rid of him to avoid further humiliation to the family. This is exactly what he did with Tyrion. He was damn sure that Tyrion was innocent yet he tried to sent him to the Wall to avoid further humiliation.

[AlliYoyo]

On the Sansa-Tyrion marriage, both bigamy on Tyrion's part and non consummation could easily annul the marriage if both parties weren't fugitives. I'd be wary about Sansa's hymen being checked by a septa - it might already be broken from horse riding.

If it was Arya, yes. But Sansa never liked riding, so she wasn't likely to have done much more than riding lessons. That could be enough to do it, true, but then again it may not have been.

Would a septa accept riding as an excuse for a broken maidenhead?

And Paper Waver, dubbing Gerion's journey as a "Fool's Quest" is a far cry from arranging a fatal accident for his brother. For all Tywin's faults, I can't see kinslaying.

[Mrs_Darcy]

But in what faith does Harry believe in?

Furthermore, not accepting marriages done in the Faith of the Seven will wreak havoc in the North. It would make the Manderlys (and maybe a couple others) bastards. Bad idea.

It would make Sansa and her siblings (!) bastards as well, since Ned wed Catelyn in the sept of Riverrun.

[devilish]

Well, I've already said it. Tywin threats himself and his family as pawns in service of the family. He gives them orders and they have to obey. But, he never harmed anyone ever. He wants to send Tyrion to the Wall. Tyrion is obsessed with Tywin's alleged hate towards him. Outside Tyrion's head, what actually happened. Tywin didn't kill him when he was a boy, he raised him in CR, not somewhere far away (note that George V raised his epileptic son Johnny on a faraway estate and that was 20th century), he gave him na unlimited access to financial resources, he started a war when Catelyn abducted him, he made him the acting Hand, he made him master of coin. Not bad for a horrible father. He didn't allow him to marry a whore and he was exceedingly cruel about it, but that's who Tywin is. Especially when you take what Tytos did into account. Also, Tywin did all he did in life for his family. His sister Genna tells us a lot about it. I can make you a list if you like, but I think it is obvious from the books. And Tywin never shies away from taking the blame if it promotes interests of his House. He is no kinslayer and there is no hint that he was at odds with Gerion. So, you tell me what motive Tywin would have to kill Gerion? That's your speculation, not mine.

Killing Tyrion or sending him away would have made the Lannisters look divided and therefore weak. The latter is even more dangerous for the Lannisters then the former as Tyrion is not a bastard and if used well by a rival family (ex Robb Stark) he can easily find himself as rightful heir of Casterly Rock

Whenever Tywin gave Tyrion a task he never failed. He was a great hand of the king who saved Kingslanding. Tywin rated such incredible talent, no wonder he made him King's hand at a time when Kings Landing was risking invasion. However he also feared him. The boy had his brains and unlike Tywin he also had that ferve within him to make even his enemies like him. Considering how stupid the Lannister Twins and their first born were, this 'imp' could easily have become Lord of Casterly Rock if not King of the 7 Kingdoms. No wonder why, when the time felt right, (Robb Stark was killed, Stannis was defeated, the Lannister had the Tyrells as allies and Danaerys was playing with fire with the Masters at the other side of the world), Tywin decided to believe the lies surrounding Tyrion and have him at the Wall. Once again, At the wall...not killed. Tyrion may end up being needed once again.

[Mrs_Darcy]

“How long must I continue to torture myself? When will we be certain that I’m clean?”

“Truly?” said the Halfmaester. “Never. You swallowed half the river. You may be going grey even now, turning to stone from inside out, starting with your heart and lungs. If so, pricking your toes and bathing in vinegar will not save you."

I don't think GRRM wrote this stuff without a purpose.

The Asoiaf app, that was fact-checked with GRRM states, that Tyrion is clean of greyscale, so it might have been some kind of red herring.

[Ragnorak]

This gets brought up fairly regularly, and I often hear people say how hard it will be for Sansa to get her marriage annulled, and that she'll have to appeal to the high septon, but I disagree with this.

The North don't even follow the seven, so why would they care what the high septon thinks? If it suits the Northern Lords then they will just declare the Sansa-Tyrion marriage invalid and there will be no need to go to the high septon, and Sansa will be free to marry Harry (or someone else). It's also worth noting that Sansa probably still has her maidenhead, so if the marriage wasn't consummated it will make the whole process a lot easier.

So basically I think this "she'll have to appeal to the high septon" stuff is rubbish. If Sansa marrying Harry (or someone else) is necessary for political reasons then the lords of The North can just declare the Sansa/Tyrion marriage invalid and remarry her without the high septons approval. It's not like the High Septon is going to send an army up North to stop the wedding.

The "appeal to the High Septon stuff" comes up because Martin was explicitly asked about it and answered as has already been mentioned upthread. Marriages in Westeros seem to be binding regardless of the religion officiating the ceremony. Throughout its history Westeros has had the Old Gods, the Seven, the Drowned God, the river gods of the Rhoyne, as well as some marriages with the Free Cities with who knows what gods. Marriage is a political institution as well as a religious one and its inviolability is what makes it effective as a political tool. If the different religions were sufficient to set aside a marriage we'd see marriages officiated by both relevant religions as a routine practice.

No one questions the marriage between Alys and the Thenn because it was officiated by Mel under the Red God and even Asha thinks herself as bound, or at least politically neutralized, by her uncle's nonsense wedding where a seal stood in her.

She had to pay her nuncle his just due. With one stroke, Euron had turned a rival into a supporter, secured the isles in his absence, and removed Asha as a threat. And enjoyed a good belly laugh too. Tris Botley said that the Crow’s Eye had used a seal to stand in for her at her wedding. “I hope Erik did not insist on a consummation,” she’d said.

There's a great deal of outrage in the North over Lady Hornwood's fingers but it isn't clear that even that farce of a marriage is being questioned on its validity (though I suspect the Northmen would be far more interested in making her a widow if she still lived than the annulment angle.)

Sansa has more than ample grounds to pursue an annulment. The lack of consummation is public gossip, and alone sufficient. I'd have to reread Tyrion's trial but I think the lack of consummation is actually part of the public record of his trial too. It was all the hallmarks of a forced wedding. She went to Kings Landing betrothed to Joffrey and he then had her routinely beaten by the Kingsguard until he set her aside and made a new marriage pact for her without her guardian's consent. If the reputedly seven most fierce knights in the realm beating on a thirteen year old girl doesn't qualify as "forced" I'm not sure what ever would.

So while being married under different religions doesn't seem to matter, the different religion question still raises speculation. Under the Faith the High Septon can set aside marriages, but under the old gods or other religions what is the mechanism and who holds the authority to set aside marriages if anyone? Apparently in The Rogue Prince there is a reference to an appeal to the king to set aside a marriage though it doesn't happen. I would imagine that the King in the North would be the official with the power to set aside marriages under the old gods in the years since they've forgotten what greenseers are. If a new King in the North arises, I imagine he could set aside the marriage and would likely send a raven to the High Septon with the reasons given Tyrion's faith. If the High Septon disagreed then you end up with a Sansa free to marry under the old gods but not the new and Southron lords being able to claim her children are bastards and not recognizing the claims of her children and grandchildren which brings us back to why marriage in Westeros is considered largely inviolable.

I think the important piece of information in Martin's High Septon answer is that Sansa has to make the appeal. I imagine that would hold true for any old gods or other authority figure who could set aside marriages too. This means that any potential marriage to Harry or anyone else is essentially in her control and not something a Littlefinger can bribe into possibility and force on her. The lack of agency in her first wedding gives her far more agency in any potential second one-- at least while Tyrion is believed to draw breath.

[Modesty Lannister]

For me, Tywin punishes those who shame the family severely. He is blinded by the humiliation his family suffered in his father's reign. It is such an obsession that he never smiled his entire life until the horrible grin of his corpse. He hated Tyrion for being a dwarf. He hated him for whoremongering openly. And he hated him for marrying a simple girl because it was a great shame according to him. He dubbed Gerion's journey as "fool's quest". I think it is in his character to get rid of him to avoid further humiliation to the family. This is exactly what he did with Tyrion. He was damn sure that Tyrion was innocent yet he tried to sent him to the Wall to avoid further humiliation.

I agree with that, but punishing is not the same as killing and you claim Tywin killed Gerion. Note that Tywin thinks that 99% of what his family does is "a fool's quest". Also, he did smile three times. When he got married to Joanna and became the Hand (Genna's one sentence, which is interesting) and when the twins were born. I believe Tywin is very cautious about any kind of kinslaying. I don't believe Tywin hated Tyrion at all. I already stated what he's objectively done for his dwarf son. Tyrion doesn't see it that way, but that's his POV. Tywin hates any show of weakness by any family member. He is very ready to punish that, but he is not ready to kill a family member. Do you know anything Tywin did publicly that he actually wished to do? We found him with Shae, which means he did hire prostitutes, but never allowed that to become a public knowledge. Also, Genna loves Tywin and the way she talks about him shows that she really appreciates what Tywin has been doing for the Lannisters. Kevan gives the same impression. There is no hint that Tywin was not loved and appreciated by his siblings, so do tell me which part of the text led you to the conclusion that Tywin might kill his own brother just because he went on a "fool's quest"?

[Modesty Lannister]

Killing Tyrion or sending him away would have made the Lannisters look divided and therefore weak. The latter is even more dangerous for the Lannisters then the former as Tyrion is not a bastard and if used well by a rival family (ex Robb Stark) he can easily find himself as rightful heir of Casterly Rock

Whenever Tywin gave Tyrion a task he never failed. He was a great hand of the king who saved Kingslanding. Tywin rated such incredible talent, no wonder he made him King's hand at a time when Kings Landing was risking invasion. However he also feared him. The boy had his brains and unlike Tywin he also had that ferve within him to make even his enemies like him. Considering how stupid the Lannister Twins and their first born were, this 'imp' could easily have become Lord of Casterly Rock if not King of the 7 Kingdoms. No wonder why, when the time felt right, (Robb Stark was killed, Stannis was defeated, the Lannister had the Tyrells as allies and Danaerys was playing with fire with the Masters at the other side of the world), Tywin decided to believe the lies surrounding Tyrion and have him at the Wall. Once again, At the wall...not killed. Tyrion may end up being needed once again.

I don't know how you come to these conclusions. Tyrion was acussed of regicide by his sister - the queen, not Tywin. She presented a very strong case. Tyrion had no defense case at all. Imagine any other presiding judge, but Tywin. Tyrion would be sentenced to death by anyone. Tywin offers to send him to the Wall. There is no other way out in that situation. And Tyrion knows a lot about the Wall, certainly more than any other Lannister, so I bet Tywin had a plan about that already developed. There was no way Tywin could have stopped Cersei from accusing Tyrion, so what he did is damage control. Plus, he did not look weak at all. It takes guts to judge your own son and it sends a message that if he can do that, he can do anything. Tyrion's reputation in KL is bad despite of what we know he did. His PR is horrible. Also, Tywin did recognise Tyrion's talents, because he made him master of coin. Tyrion was an acting Hand instead of Tywin and there was no way Tywin would have left him in that position after the war not only because it was originally his, but because Cersei would put up a fight. This way he got yet another seat on the Council for the Lannisters. Tywin did not fear Tyrion. That's why he died. He underestimated his ability to be cruel. And Tyrion can be cruel as well. So, Tywin has a strategic, cold, cruel, detached mind, but he doesn't harm his family. Even when they commit regicide. And don't forget Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa giving him the north to rule in the future. Tywin openly states Roose Bolton is just a temporary solution. So, what did Tywin do against Tyrion exactly?

[Mithras]

There is no hint that Tywin was not loved and appreciated by his siblings, so do tell me which part of the text led you to the conclusion that Tywin might kill his own brother just because he went on a "fool's quest"?

“What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.”

His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?”

“The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.”

Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”

“You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine.”

“You are not my son.” Lord Tywin turned his face away. “You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty.”

For me, good old Lord Tywin (seven save his soul) can easily have Gerion killed if he insists on pursuing a fool's quest and not plays his part in advancing the family.

Genna and Kevan surely liked him. How not? Tywin protested Genna's marriage to a Frey. This is enough for Genna to adore him her entire life. However, Tywin didnot do this because of his love to younger sister. The Frey was too lowborn to be a match for Lannister.

Kevan was a follower. He didnot have a single opinion which was not thought by ywin before. Of course he loved Tywin.

These two cannot make me believe that Gerion or Tygett loved him the same. Gerion sounds like a willful and cheerful man. Not exactly Tywin's type is he? And Tygett?

Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by.

[Woman of War]

I predict, and don't ask me for the SSM to prove it:

Presented with the opportunity to have her marriage to Tyrion annulled Sansa will back away since she realizes that her benevolent supporters, whoever they may be, have nothing in mind than the next plot to sell her out.

[The Fourth Head]

I agree that Sansa cannot marry Harry and win the support of the Vale without the high septon's endorsement. The reason being, I cannot see the Vale accepting the marriage under the Northern Gods as Sansa would still be married to Tyrion under the conditions of the religion of the Vale. It would be a violation of their faith in favour of another.

I also believe Littlefinger has something up his sleeve. He was contemplating removing Sansa from KL long before she was married to Tyrion, so he clearly had plans for her long before she married Tyrion. If Tyrion posed such a stumbling block to LF future marriage plans for her, he would have facilitated her escape before the wedding to Tyrion. Instead, he waited until after, which enabled him to entrap Sansa for Joffrey's death. I don't think the power of entrapment was enough of an incentive to risk allowing Sansa to marry Tyrion without being confident that he could annul it.

If he can produce a Tysha- genuine or fake- or simply evidence- eg produce the drunken septon that married them originally- (where is he? At the wall or in the vale? does LF know he's at the wall and can extract a letter?) If so its a slam-dunk annulment because Tyrion was already married. If it's argued that the first marriage was not valid because it was made under false pretenses, then all sorts of loopholes can be applied to Sansa's as well, like it was under duress and her family did not endorse it.

That would also mean rumbling the Tyrell's plot to marry Sansa to Willas in favour of Tyrion was a masterstroke for LF as in effect, it simply prevented her from being married validly. I am assuming of course that it was LF who brought news of the Tyrell plot to Tywin and not Varys, who you would assume would be more likely to know of it?

[Woman of War]

It might indeed be a fake Tysha since plotwise this would bring two unexpected turns: a fake annullment for Sansa (if she agrees at all) and it might lure Tyrion back to Westeros in the speed of light, if Martin needs him here for the plot.

So Baelish could put Sansa back on the marriage market by two ways: a fake anullment that may bust easily, just like fake Arya will bust at some point. But, even better, Tyrion will return against all reason, give up his potential position with Dany, if he believes "Tysha" in danger - a great trap in order to widow Sansa for good.

Only Sansa will hold the key to that scheme: she may unveil poor fake Tysha and she may warn Tyrion about Baelish's trap. Or she will be LF's partner in crime.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It might indeed be a fake Tysha since plotwise this would bring two unexpected turns: a fake annullment for Sansa (if she agrees at all) and it might lure Tyrion back to Westeros in the speed of light, if Martin needs him here for the plot.

So Baelish could put Sansa back on the marriage market by two ways: a fake anullment that may bust easily, just like fake Arya will bust at some point. But, even better, Tyrion will return against all reason, give up his potential position with Dany, if he believes "Tysha" in danger - a great trap in order to widow Sansa for good.

Only Sansa will hold the key to that scheme: she may unveil poor fake Tysha and she may warn Tyrion about Baelish's trap. Or she will be LF's partner in crime.

There is one problem with your line of thought: Whether Sansa agrees or not, whether fake Tysha is unveiled or not, her marriage with Tyrion will be annulled either way. As soon as there is proof that Tyrion was married and that there is no proof of Tysha being dead at the time, Tyrion's second marriage is invalid and annulled.