"The Sacrifice" Asha

[Hippocras]

what are you trying to say? The Northerners would be totally cool with Stannis letting Theon live?

It may not be their number one priority or anything, but you are delusional if you think they are fine with it if he is not executed for his crimes.

[thehandwipes]

does anyone even know Stannis has Theon, besides Asha? If its in a sample chapter from TWOW go ahead and tell me, i'm not afraid of sample chapter spoilers.

GRRM has six POVs in the north. Jon is "dead" for a little while. Bran is in the far north. He'll probably want Mel to remain somewhat mysterious which will be ruined if she gets many POVs, besides, she's on the Wall. Davos probably won't hook back up with Stannis, at least not for awhile. This leaves Asha and Theon to tell the Stannis/Bolton/Northern Lords story. Sacrificing Theon might make sense for Stannis, but I think GRRM will need him a while longer.

[Fire Eater]

does anyone even know Stannis has Theon, besides Asha? If its in a sample chapter from TWOW go ahead and tell me, i'm not afraid of sample chapter spoilers.

GRRM has six POVs in the north. Jon is "dead" for a little while. Bran is in the far north. He'll probably want Mel to remain somewhat mysterious which will be ruined if she gets many POVs, besides, she's on the Wall. Davos probably won't hook back up with Stannis, at least not for awhile. This leaves Asha and Theon to tell the Stannis/Bolton/Northern Lords story. Sacrificing Theon might make sense for Stannis, but I think GRRM will need him a while longer.

"There is not enough gold on all your Iron Islands. Your brother's hands are soaked with blood. Farring is urging me to give him to R'hllor."

"Clayton Suggs as well, I do not doubt."

"Him, Corliss Penny, all the rest. Even Ser Richard here, who only loves the Lord of Light when it suits his purposes."

Stannis's knights know.

what are you trying to say? The Northerners would be totally cool with Stannis letting Theon live?

It may not be their number one priority or anything, but you are delusional if you think they are fine with it if he is not executed for his crimes.

If Theon asked to take the black (something Luwin advised him in ACoK), I don't think the Northmen would begrudge him that. They know the LC was the half-brother (supposedly) to Rickon and Bran, and would either make Theon's life a living hell at the Wall, or send him on some suicide mission.

[Hippocras]

Theon does not want to live. He does not WANT to take the black. Why are people having so much trouble processing that? Every single movement he makes is painful. He is lacking critical digits necessary for shooting arrows, riding a horse, writing, balancing while walking. His brain is damaged. His stress response is destroyed. Taking the Black is not any sort of release for him, and he is pretty much useless to them. It is simply a life of perpetual torture and all he would be to them is another mouth to feed when they already don't know how they are going to feed themselves.

A good death though? One that reverses the consequences of his actions? Theon himself is all for that.

[Old Flint]

^Very good point Hippocras...

Theon is practically dying to erm... die.

That being said, considering how GRRM writes and how he likes to toy around with our expectations and ideas, I would´t put it past him to let Theon live, and that he´ll redeem himself in some other way than just dying. Like some other posters have said, when a POV really wants something, you can be sure that GRRM will not let them have it...

Personally, I find Theon a mauled, splintered, complex and very interesting character that GRRM has invested a lot of time in fleshing out (really bad pun...), so I think Theon won't get his wish fulfilled. But if Stannis decides to let Theon have his death, let´s hope the sacrifice in some way leads to loads of Frey soldiers falling through the ice..

[Hippocras]

^Very good point Hippocras...

Theon is practically dying to erm... die.

That being said, considering how GRRM writes and how he likes to toy around with our expectations and ideas, I would´t put it past him to let Theon live, and that he´ll redeem himself in some other way than just dying. Like some other posters have said, when a POV really wants something, you can be sure that GRRM will not let them have it...

Personally, I find Theon a mauled, splintered, complex and very interesting character that GRRM has invested a lot of time in fleshing out (really bad pun...), so I think Theon won't get his wish fulfilled. But if Stannis decides to let Theon have his death, let´s hope the sacrifice in some way leads to loads of Frey soldiers falling through the ice..

The way I see it, SOMEONE is going to die as a direct result of Melisandre's desire to wake a stone dragon.

That someone will be one of:

Theon

Shireen

Asha

Of all of those, Theon is the only one whose death would fulfill an arc and would do anything other than shock and horrify us.

I don't hate Theon. I simply think that his time has come and such a death fulfills his arc.

[Fire Eater]

Theon does not want to live. He does not WANT to take the black. Why are people having so much trouble processing that? Every single movement he makes is painful. He is lacking critical digits necessary for shooting arrows, riding a horse, writing, balancing while walking. His brain is damaged. His stress response is destroyed. Taking the Black is not any sort of release for him, and he is pretty much useless to them. It is simply a life of perpetual torture and all he would be to them is another mouth to feed when they already don't know how they are going to feed themselves.

A good death though? One that reverses the consequences of his actions? Theon himself is all for that.

How do you know he doesn't want to take the black? It hasn't even occurred to him so far, so there is nothing to support that. I think you keep forgetting my point that GRRM builds impressions and expectations just to overturn them. Ned didn't want to die, and neither did Oberyn yet they did. Ollo Lophand lost a hand, Hop-Robin has a clubfoot while Jon even takes in the infirm or crippled. The NW isn't solely a fighting force, they have stewards, builders, cooks, need I remind you. Theon could fulfill some capacity as a steward.

"A life of perpetual torture" is an exaggeration given that torture ended when he left his torturer Ramsay. GRRM makes his characters reach their lowest points before they reach higher points. If Theon is at his lowest point, then he likely will reach a high point.

The way I see it, SOMEONE is going to die as a direct result of Melisandre's desire to wake a stone dragon.

That someone will be one of:

Theon

Shireen

Asha

Of all of those, Theon is the only one whose death would fulfill an arc and would do anything other than shock and horrify us.

I don't hate Theon. I simply think that his time has come and such a death fulfills his arc.

Except Melisanre isn't there with Theon and Stannis to sacrifice anyone, and Stannis isn't thinking about waking a stone dragon.

As for king's blood, isn't there a guy at the Wall whose name is literally "Kingsblood" who claims descent from a King-Beyond-the-Wall?

[Hippocras]

Ok, really, believe what you want. But contrary to what you think, GRRM does not prevent characters from dying just because he likes them, and he does not write things just to surprise us, he actually sets them up. What has been set up thoroughly in this case are the following facts:

1. King's blood is important for blood magic. Mel is the character most directly linked to blood magic. Mel is tied to Stannis, who relies on her. There is a line that explicitly says that first the father, then the son die so that they both die as kings to wake the dragon. Theon was the only living son and heir of Balon Greyjoy, self-proclaimed king of the Iron Islands. Theon declared himself Prince of Winterfell. Theon was not present for the Kingsmoot, which makes the Kingsmoot invalid (even if those following Euron don't know it). By all the laws of Westeros, to which Stannis ascribes, Theon is king of the Iron Islands. Stannis used blood magic (Edric and leeches) to influence the death of Balon, or at least so he thinks - and it may well have played a role in the storm and in triggering Euron's arrival. So he believes he killed the father somehow with leeches, and now has the son.

2. Mel wants to burn someone with King's blood to raise a stone dragon. Stannis knows this, and knows he could use a dragon. Shireen's dreams suggest this will be her and she may well be in serious danger. However it is hard to see how Mel burning Shireen would be ever accepted by Stannis who loves his daughter and is fighting for her inheritance (It is also very unclear if daughters are the same as sons for blood magic purposes, which is relevant in Asha's case as well). So if Mel did burn Shireen, she would lose her king (unless he was already dead) and only some serious disruption would save her from being executed. I don't know how much of what is taking place at and around Winterfell was planned ahead of time between Stannis, Mel and Mance, however if Mel could see the threats at Hardhome and elsewhere, very possibly she has some incling of Stannis's real situation in spite of the Pink letter. In which case she may be aware he has Theon. Even if not, she would not burn Shireen without confirmation of Stannis's death.

3. Theon's desire for death and release was, in fact, unambiguoulsly shown. He does not want to live, and explicitly stated that he'd gone too far to escape by taking the Black. He is crushed by guilt. However it is likely a completely irrelevant point because the Watch is in trouble right now and may not even survive long enough for Theon to reach the Wall. The mutiny is going to cause some seriously destructive chaos. Theon will not be taking the Black and his death has been set up through numerous clues planted deliberately by GRRM. Which is what he actually does: He does not just randomly write in shit later to save fan favorite characters. He has even directly adressed this in interviews.

4. Some people take the "rise again harder and stronger" line to mean Theon will survive. However the line is striking in its ambiguity, and certainly says "what is dead" - you can't forget the first part and pay attention only to the "rise again" part. So to "rise again" he has to die. But what does it mean to rise again? IMO rising again harder and stronger is very possibly a hint at his role in the raising of a stone dragon. This would definitely qualify as harder and stronger. It could of course just mean he becomes Theon again, but that is unlikely because even with him reclaiming his identity, there is not the slightest case that can be reasonably made that the new Theon, in current mutilated human form, is "harder and stronger". A better person, yes. Harder and stronger - no. And Theon as is never actually died.

5. Bran, through the ravens, was insisting Theon be taken to the tree. There are probably only two reasons Bran wants this to happen. Either he wants to use the tree to communicate with Theon and Stannis (low likelihood because the ravens talk better than the tree does) or, he wants to use the tree as it was used in his visions - as the place where the blood magic of the North takes place. IMO there is a direct link between GRRM starting off Bran's story with a beheading, proceeding to tell us about Bran seeing an entire multi-generational string of beheadings through visions, and Bran's desire for Theon to go to the tree. Not because he hates Theon, but because the beheadings serve a purpose in Bran's mission to defeat the Others.

[Fire Eater]

Ok, really, believe what you want. But contrary to what you think, GRRM does not prevent characters from dying just because he likes them, and he does not write things just to surprise us, he actually sets them up. What has been set up thoroughly in this case are the following facts:

1. King's blood is important for blood magic. Mel is the character most directly linked to blood magic. Mel is tied to Stannis, who relies on her. There is a line that explicitly says that first the father, then the son die so that they both die as kings to wake the dragon. Theon was the only living son and heir of Balon Greyjoy, self-proclaimed king of the Iron Islands. Theon declared himself Prince of Winterfell. Theon was not present for the Kingsmoot, which makes the Kingsmoot invalid (even if those following Euron don't know it). By all the laws of Westeros, to which Stannis ascribes, Theon is king of the Iron Islands. Stannis used blood magic (Edric and leeches) to influence the death of Balon, or at least so he thinks - and it may well have played a role in the storm and in triggering Euron's arrival. So he believes he killed the father somehow with leeches, and now has the son.

1. Stannis doesn't think of Theon as a king. He sees all other claimants as usurpers. Balon doesn't count as a sacrifice (all sacrifices need to be burned), and Stannis has expressed not thoughts about waking a dragon.

2. Mel wants to burn someone with King's blood to raise a stone dragon. Stannis knows this, and knows he could use a dragon. Shireen's dreams suggest this will be her and she may well be in serious danger. However it is hard to see how Mel burning Shireen would be ever accepted by Stannis who loves his daughter and is fighting for her inheritance (It is also very unclear if daughters are the same as sons for blood magic purposes, which is relevant in Asha's case as well). So if Mel did burn Shireen, she would lose her king (unless he was already dead) and only some serious disruption would save her from being executed. I don't know how much of what is taking place at and around Winterfell was planned ahead of time between Stannis, Mel and Mance, however if Mel could see the threats at Hardhome and elsewhere, very possibly she has some incling of Stannis's real situation in spite of the Pink letter. In which case she may be aware he has Theon. Even if not, she would not burn Shireen without confirmation of Stannis's death.

Val may prove to be right about Shireen's greyscale, and it will reactivate. Also, when Dany arrives with her dragons and the Red Faith proclaiming her AAR, Stannis and Mel will both find themselves pushed to the point of desperation. Stannis needs a dragon or lose the war, and Melisandre must give him one or she will lose her credibility having picked the wrong guy for AAR. Mel would say Shireen is dead anyway so they might as well.

3. Theon's desire for death and release was, in fact, unambiguoulsly shown. He does not want to live, and explicitly stated that he'd gone too far to escape by taking the Black. He is crushed by guilt. However it is likely a completely irrelevant point because the Watch is in trouble right now and may not even survive long enough for Theon to reach the Wall. The mutiny is going to cause some seriously destructive chaos. Theon will not be taking the Black and his death has been set up through numerous clues planted deliberately by GRRM. Which is what he actually does: He does not just randomly write in shit later to save fan favorite characters. He has even directly adressed this in interviews.

Text please where Theon says he is too far back to take the black. The atmosphere is that Theon will die, and GRRM creates such moods to do a complete turnaround. He makes the lows lower to make the highs higher. I doubt the NW will cease to exist as the NW still has military training, superior equipment and communication on the wildlings. I doubt GRRM would leave Jon with a situation that is utterly unfixable. The coming deaths of POV characters aren't announced in their POVs, but come as surprises when the reader least expects it, with no one mentioning the POV character is going to be killed before it happens. It just takes away the impact of the death.

4. Some people take the "rise again harder and stronger" line to mean Theon will survive. However the line is striking in its ambiguity, and certainly says "what is dead" - you can't forget the first part and pay attention only to the "rise again" part. So to "rise again" he has to die. But what does it mean to rise again? IMO rising again harder and stronger is very possibly a hint at his role in the raising of a stone dragon. This would definitely qualify as harder and stronger. It could of course just mean he becomes Theon again, but that is unlikely because even with him reclaiming his identity, there is not the slightest case that can be reasonably made that the new Theon, in current mutilated human form, is "harder and stronger". A better person, yes. Harder and stronger - no. And Theon as is never actually died.

Theon died when he became Reek. Now he is calling himself Theon again. Theon is harder and stronger in that he is shrewder, more cautious and smarter.

5. Bran, through the ravens, was insisting Theon be taken to the tree. There are probably only two reasons Bran wants this to happen. Either he wants to use the tree to communicate with Theon and Stannis (low likelihood because the ravens talk better than the tree does) or, he wants to use the tree as it was used in his visions - as the place where the blood magic of the North takes place. IMO there is a direct link between GRRM starting off Bran's story with a beheading, proceeding to tell us about Bran seeing an entire multi-generational string of beheadings through visions, and Bran's desire for Theon to go to the tree. Not because he hates Theon, but because the beheadings serve a purpose in Bran's mission to defeat the Others.

How do we know it is Bran that wants him to die? I think we will need to wait for a confirmation from his POV. Even if he does, I don't think that is a guarantee Theon will be executed.

[Good Guy Garlan]

The way I see it, SOMEONE is going to die as a direct result of Melisandre's desire to wake a stone dragon.

That someone will be one of:

Theon

Shireen

Asha

Of all of those, Theon is the only one whose death would fulfill an arc and would do anything other than shock and horrify us.

I don't hate Theon. I simply think that his time has come and such a death fulfills his arc.

I don't know, I think the "two kings to wake the dragon" comment is there for a reason, and Theon doesn't really apply in that since he's no king, and neither are Asha or Shireen

My guess is that Roose will crown himself as Barbrey Dustin thinks he will (coincidentally giving Walder a Frey Queen at last), then he'll die and the king will be Ramsay, and when he dies the dragon (Jon) will wake up

[Fire Eater]

I don't know, I think the "two kings to wake the dragon" comment is there for a reason, and Theon doesn't really apply in that since he's no king, and neither are Asha or Shireen

Asha is a self-proclaimed Queen at least, and according to Aemon, prince and princess were the same term in Valyrian, and the same must be true for king/queen. Asha could potentially fit.

If Gerrick Kingsblood is burned, then we have two sacrifices, one by fire and the other by ice.

[Hippocras]

I don't know, I think the "two kings to wake the dragon" comment is there for a reason, and Theon doesn't really apply in that since he's no king, and neither are Asha or Shireen

My guess is that Roose will crown himself as Barbrey Dustin thinks he will (coincidentally giving Walder a Frey Queen at last), then he'll die and the king will be Ramsay, and when he dies the dragon (Jon) will wake up

It is an interesting idea, that it will be Roose and Ramsay, but there is pretty much nothing to set that up yet. Bolton power is tied to Lannister power, so them making such a move would be quite bizarre. It would hinge on Lannister and Highgarden defeat in KL.

Theon on the other hand...I really think denial of the things setting up his death are simply wishful thinking and nothing more because people are attached to the character. But there is really nothing to suggest that Theon will ever request to take the Black. Sure, Lewyn suggested it, but Theon dismissed the idea. And frankly, it would be terrible from a literary perspective for that to happen. Talk about an interesting story arc fading to a pointless whimper! Who cares if we like Theon? His death has far more literary value and meaning for the storyline than him living on in pain and guilt as a servant of whatever ass takes over the Watch after stabbing Jon, if the Watch even survives.

Theon's arc is tied to Bran's. Bran's storyline is rich with beheadings, including in his visions. Theon beheading Rodrik in the show and Farlen in the books added symmetry to that relationship. The natural conclusion of that Bran-Theon link is a Theon beheading at a weirwood. However the purpose would not be revenge, but blood magic in service of defeating the Others.

As for his king status, that is incorrect. Stannis never accepted ANY of the Five Kings as legitimate and Balon was no different, however Stannis is completely aware that Theon was Balon's only son and therefore his heir by the laws of Westeros. The idea he might consider anyone else to be Balon's heir is frankly ridiculous, because that would be same as saying Renly has the right to claim the throne over him. So Stannis definitely doesn't respect Theon much, but to say he doesn't consider him Balon's heir is simply untrue, and if Balon was a king, Theon is now - even by Ironborn logic if they knew he was alive (though of course as a weak king he would not last long there).

The only thing that could possibly redeem the weakening of this arc by saving Theon would be if Theon goes on to echo the actions of the Hooded Man in Winterfell, as a member of the Watch taken over by the Night's King - staging his own guerilla resistance. It is a sketchy proposal that I doubt, but it is the only thing that would give literary logic to saving him.

[Fire Eater]

Theon on the other hand...I really think denial of the things setting up his death are simply wishful thinking and nothing more because people are attached to the character. But there is really nothing to suggest that Theon will ever request to take the Black. Sure, Lewyn suggested it, but Theon dismissed the idea. And frankly, it would be terrible from a literary perspective for that to happen. Talk about an interesting story arc fading to a pointless whimper! Who cares if we like Theon? His death has far more literary value and meaning for the storyline than him living on in pain and guilt as a servant of whatever ass takes over the Watch after stabbing Jon, if the Watch even survives.

Attached? That is ad hominem in appeal to motive. Wishful thinking/denial, why do you have a copy of TWoW in front of you to confirm your claims? That is self-righteous attitude to have, no offense, given TWow hasn't confirmed it. You don't know anymore than I do. I don't like Theon, that is simply a false assumption. You're saying Theon couldn't do anything at the Wall? I didn't deny the setup, but I have made the point which you failed to address (in my mind making it valid if you fail to address it). GRRM builds impressions to overturn them as he has done countless times. It looked like the Lannisters had won the Wo5K, only for Joffrey to be poisoned at his wedding, and now things are going downhill. You are talking about a strong impression, and yet fail to acknowledge what GRRm tends to do with those. Who is to say GRRM won't give him a use other than death?

Theon's arc is tied to Bran's. Bran's storyline is rich with beheadings, including in his visions. Theon beheading Rodrik in the show and Farlen in the books added symmetry to that relationship. The natural conclusion of that Bran-Theon link is a Theon beheading at a weirwood. However the purpose would not be revenge, but blood magic in service of defeating the Others.

I don't see anything pointing towards Theon, but Asha I think is a better case. Her POV is literally called "The Sacrifice." Again, when has any character's death been announced in a few POV chapters beforehand just before they are killed in their POV?

As for his king status, that is incorrect. Stannis never accepted ANY of the Five Kings as legitimate and Balon was no different, however Stannis is completely aware that Theon was Balon's only son and therefore his heir by the laws of Westeros. The idea he might consider anyone else to be Balon's heir is frankly ridiculous, because that would be same as saying Renly has the right to claim the throne over him. So Stannis definitely doesn't respect Theon much, but to say he doesn't consider him Balon's heir is simply untrue, and if Balon was a king, Theon is now - even by Ironborn logic if they knew he was alive (though of course as a weak king he would not last long there).

Theon never assumed the title of "king," only "prince." He was never crowned as king. Asha, OTOH, did. She wore a queenly crown at the kingsmoot, and called herself "Queen."

The only thing that could possibly redeem the weakening of this arc by saving Theon would be if Theon goes on to echo the actions of the Hooded Man in Winterfell, as a member of the Watch taken over by the Night's King - staging his own guerilla resistance. It is a sketchy proposal that I doubt, but it is the only thing that would give literary logic to saving him.

He could do other things that the reader hasn't come up with yet. Tyland Lannister was gelded, mutilated and blinded yet he managed to serve as master of coin an later, Hand, regardless.

[Wouter]

I expect that both Asha and Theon will survive the battle of Winterfell and its direct aftermath. Since Asha seems unlikely to participate in the fighting and since she is a valuable hostage (Stannis having marriage plans for her), she seems to have relatively good life expectancy for an ASOIAF-character (for the time being).

As for Theon, I suspect that Bran does not want him dead, and Theon's thought "the Gods aren't finished with me yet" could be a pointer towards Bran, now himself arguably part of "the old gods", indeed having need of him yet (and not necessarily just to die). One thing Bran probably needs is for Theon to tell the truth about what happened to the Miller's boys and to Bran and Rickon, so that Stannis will no longer doubt about what to do with Winterfell (Bran doesn't want Stannis to grant it to some other Northern lord, especially if it's not Jon). Another thing is that Bloodraven and/or Bran may have seen other uses for Theon through visions. And given that Bran already communicated with Theon in Winterfell (through the trees), knows the state he is in and saw him save Jeyne, I doubt he wants him dead. The Night's Watch seems a ready-made alternative.

So, I think Bran might use the opportunity to manifest the will of the old gods (through trees or talking ravens or whatever) and sway Stannis not to execute Theon.

I also think that Martin did not put in the talk about a renewed calling of a King's moot for nothing, and same goes for the wish of his mother to see him again. If Asha tells him about the latter, it just might give him enough of a will to save his own life.

The crucial thing in that historical King's moot is that the king chosen was a major dissapointment, while one of the old King's sons hadn't been present at the moot. This allowed people who were unhappy with the new King to overturn him based on a technicality, when the son demanded that the result of the King's moot be invalidated and a new one called. Theon could fulfill the same role (even if Asha or The Reader would rule in truth, or if Theon would go to the Wall afterwards), if Euron starts to lose his grip on the Islands.

Speaking about Euron, I suspect he will lead the Ironborn to a major disaster in the south. Euron is fixated on dragons and the Iron throne and does not seem to really care about the seastone chair, let alone the ironborn as a group. He may even be following Victarion in person (on the "Silence"), as a vision of Moqorro seems to indicate, and if that's true the chances of the Ironborn reavers (with some glamoured guy posing as Euron being their leader) against the full force of Redwyne's fleet, Garlan's army plus whatever the Hightowers come up with, are low. They lack their own heavy war galleys, as the Iron Fleet is fighting many leagues away near Meereen. Many readers seem to count on Euron's cunning, but if he isn't there (nor particularly interested if he is aiming for the dragons) the Ironborn leadership wouldn't be as decisive as expected.

In that case, a major defeat against lord Redwyne may put the lords in a mind to overturn the King's moot based on the technicality of Theon not having been there. There is a precedence, at least.

I don't think Stannis is planning to sacrifice anyone with King's blood on his march to Winterfell; it's more when he is near Melisandre that he may be inclined to do so. In Theon's case, he would probably offer him to the Old Gods rather than the Red God anyway, to appease his northern subjects. And if the Old Gods make it clear that they don't want Theon to be executed, the northern lords probably would respect that.

[thehandwipes]

Theon on the other hand...I really think denial of the things setting up his death are simply wishful thinking and nothing more because people are attached to the character. But there is really nothing to suggest that Theon will ever request to take the Black. Sure, Lewyn suggested it, but Theon dismissed the idea. And frankly, it would be terrible from a literary perspective for that to happen. Talk about an interesting story arc fading to a pointless whimper! Who cares if we like Theon? His death has far more literary value and meaning for the storyline than him living on in pain and guilt as a servant of whatever ass takes over the Watch after stabbing Jon, if the Watch even survives.

Theon's arc is tied to Bran's. Bran's storyline is rich with beheadings, including in his visions. Theon beheading Rodrik in the show and Farlen in the books added symmetry to that relationship. The natural conclusion of that Bran-Theon link is a Theon beheading at a weirwood. However the purpose would not be revenge, but blood magic in service of defeating the Others.

This I agree with. I seriously doubt that Theon's story going forward will involve him joining the Watch or helping restore the rightful heir to Winterfell. The Watch will fall apart and the Wall will come down. Rickon is the only person with Stark blood who might be close enough to Winterfell who wants to stop the Others to make a difference (Jon and Bran will be on the Other side).

You make a solid point about his death fulfilling an arc. When I first read ADWD I was "rooting" for Theon to die heroically rescuing Jeyne or slaying Ramsay or both, but I still think GRRM will need him as a POV. His ties to Bran make him far more valuable as POV character than Asha or Davos. Theon will almost certainly die eventually but I doubt it will be early in TWOW, by Stannis before the Battle of Ice.

Attached? That is ad hominem in appeal to motive. Wishful thinking/denial, why do you have a copy of TWoW in front of you to confirm your claims? That is self-righteous attitude to have, no offense, given TWow hasn't confirmed it.

No offense, but you're forgetting that an argumentum ad hominem is only fallacious if its irrelevant. Same with appeal to motive, its entirely appropriate to raise doubts about the biases or motives of the person speaking when done without prejudice (he neither suggested that his opinion was fact, nor that wanting Theon to live was a morally inferior position to have). We are speculating on things that haven't happened yet, that makes biases especially relevant.

I, for one, am guilty of having a pro-Theon bias. I don't want him to redeem himself with one good act only to be "put out of his misery," I want him to live and become a better stronger person than he ever thought possible. Then he can die.

[Fire Eater]

This I agree with. I seriously doubt that Theon's story going forward will involve him joining the Watch or helping restore the rightful heir to Winterfell. The Watch will fall apart and the Wall will come down. Rickon is the only person with Stark blood who might be close enough to Winterfell who wants to stop the Others to make a difference (Jon and Bran will be on the Other side).

You make a solid point about his death fulfilling an arc. When I first read ADWD I was "rooting" for Theon to die heroically rescuing Jeyne or slaying Ramsay or both, but I still think GRRM will need him as a POV. His ties to Bran make him far more valuable as POV character than Asha or Davos. Theon will almost certainly die eventually but I doubt it will be early in TWOW, by Stannis before the Battle of Ice.

The problem with the theory that Theon dies is that POV deaths are never announced beforehand in their own POVs, but they come as surprises. If GRRM creates an impression towards the future, the chances are it isn't going to pass. He toys with expectations.

[Hippocras]

The problem with the theory that Theon dies is that POV deaths are never announced beforehand in their own POVs, but they come as surprises. If GRRM creates an impression towards the future, the chances are it isn't going to pass. He toys with expectations.

This is completely untrue.

GRRM sets things up. He puts a LOT of effort into setting things up. Things may not come to pass exactly as people expect, but they still come to pass.

Dany's betrayals may not be by the people we expect, but they still happen, precisely as predicted. The Stallion that Mounts the World may not be Rhaego, but is, almost certainly, Dany's "baby" (probably Drogon). Cersei's prophesy is coming to pass in every detail. etc.

The Red Wedding may have been shocking, but the clues leading to it were very much present, and on rereads the event is almost obvious. Same for Ned's death.

Do not mistake YOUR surprise, for GRRM writing randomly. And Theon's death, by beheading, whether it happens now or after the battle at some point in the not too distant story, is something that has absolutely been set up.

I would have an easier time believing Bran wanted something other than Theon's beheading at that weirwood if his primary vision had not been an overwhelming sequence of beheadings and promises of revenge going back centuries; If the germ that led to GRRM writing this entire series of books had not been that first chapter of Bran witnessing his first beheading. There is something about those beheadings and vows for revenge that is absolutely key to creating and undoing the magic of the North.

Bran went North on a mission to defeat the Others. I find it truly bizarre that so many people seem to think he will side WITH the Others when his entire goal was to stop them. IMO what Bran wants to do is defeat the Others, and executions at weirwoods have something to do with that. The King's blood thing is very likely just as relevant to weirwood magic as it is to Rhllorist magic.

The idea that Bran just wants to communicate to Theon and Stannis is really quite a bit weaker, and indeed, based on emotion because we don't want to believe Theon will die. But if Bran just wanted to say something to Stannis and Theon, he could use the ravens. The ravens can talk. Bran can talk through them, and already did by saying they should go to the tree. So what else could the tree add?

As for the truth about the Miller's boys - sure, Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon, but he still murdered two children. Are people somehow believing that, in itself, is not a reprehensible crime? Do people really think that if Stannis and co knew that they would be like "oh, that's all good then! You can go free!". So how, exactly, would the truth about the miller's boys do anything at all except endanger Bran and Rickon's lives yet again? There is a REASON they allowed people to believe they were dead. The situation has not improved and they are no safer now. Furthermore, Manderly and Davos at least already KNOW Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon. Why would Stannis learning about this at the tree be different than Stannis learning about it from Manderly or Davos?

Finally, this belief that Bran wants so badly to save Theon from execution: Why? Why does he want to save him? What purpose could Bran possibly have for Theon that would warrant extreme weirwood magic intervention? Bran may not hate Theon anymore, but he certainly does not treasure him so much that he would risk Rickon's life (by exposing the truth) to save what little is left of Theon. Not without an actual purpose for doing so at any rate.

[Wouter]

Finally, this belief that Bran wants so badly to save Theon from execution: Why? Why does he want to save him? What purpose could Bran possibly have for Theon that would warrant extreme weirwood magic intervention? Bran may not hate Theon anymore, but he certainly does not treasure him so much that he would risk Rickon's life (by exposing the truth) to save what little is left of Theon. Not without an actual purpose for doing so at any rate.

Bran has visions and sees who is important to do what. If it's true that "The Gods aren't finished" with Theon, then Bran is likely one of those Gods who isn't quite finised yet. Bran already reached out to Theon in the God's Wood in Winterfell. I think he has plans for Theon, and it may not necessarily be as a blood sacrifice.

Exposing Rickon to Stannis is not a risk, it's an opportunity. Righteous King Stannis will have little choice, both by his morals and because of his northern allies, but to grant Winterfell back to the actual Stark family (be it Bran or Rickon). If Bran and Rickon are supposed to be death, with Jon unwilling to take Winterfell and Stannis unwilling to consider "lady Lannister", he's free to grant it to Manderley, Umber, Massey or whoever else floats his boat. If Stannis removes Ramsay and Roose, then there isn't much risk for Rickon anyway.

[Hippocras]

Bran has visions and sees who is important to do what. If it's true that "The Gods aren't finished" with Theon, then Bran is likely one of those Gods who isn't quite finised yet. Bran already reached out to Theon in the God's Wood in Winterfell. I think he has plans for Theon, and it may not necessarily be as a blood sacrifice.

Exposing Rickon to Stannis is not a risk, it's an opportunity. Righteous King Stannis will have little choice, both by his morals and because of his northern allies, but to grant Winterfell back to the actual Stark family (be it Bran or Rickon). If Bran and Rickon are supposed to be death, with Jon unwilling to take Winterfell and Stannis unwilling to consider "lady Lannister", he's free to grant it to Manderley, Umber, Massey or whoever else floats his boat. If Stannis removes Ramsay and Roose, then there isn't much risk for Rickon anyway.

Ok, but the gods weren't quite finished with Theon back when he was still inside Winterfell, and not available for use as a blood sacrifice. Now he is. Time has moved on, circumstances have moved on, and the "yet" in that statement may no longer apply; it is, after all, time limited.

[Fire Eater]

This is completely untrue.

GRRM sets things up. He puts a LOT of effort into setting things up. Things may not come to pass exactly as people expect, but they still come to pass.

Dany's betrayals may not be by the people we expect, but they still happen, precisely as predicted. The Stallion that Mounts the World may not be Rhaego, but is, almost certainly, Dany's "baby" (probably Drogon). Cersei's prophesy is coming to pass in every detail. etc.

The Red Wedding may have been shocking, but the clues leading to it were very much present, and on rereads the event is almost obvious. Same for Ned's death.

Do not mistake YOUR surprise, for GRRM writing randomly. And Theon's death, by beheading, whether it happens now or after the battle at some point in the not too distant story, is something that has absolutely been set up.

He sets things up subtly when they point to a certain event.

But the impression was who the betrayals would be by, and she wrong on that count.

The clues for the RW weren't explicit, but subtle. No one was saying "Robb Stark is going to die at the Twins."

Straw man, I never said anywhere he sets things up randomly, but that he is a fantasy writer. He makes the lows low to make the highs higher. You have failed to provide a single example where a POV is killed and someone explicitly states he/she is going to be killed in their previous chapter.

I would have an easier time believing Bran wanted something other than Theon's beheading at that weirwood if his primary vision had not been an overwhelming sequence of beheadings and promises of revenge going back centuries; If the germ that led to GRRM writing this entire series of books had not been that first chapter of Bran witnessing his first beheading. There is something about those beheadings and vows for revenge that is absolutely key to creating and undoing the magic of the North.

Bran went North on a mission to defeat the Others. I find it truly bizarre that so many people seem to think he will side WITH the Others when his entire goal was to stop them. IMO what Bran wants to do is defeat the Others, and executions at weirwoods have something to do with that. The King's blood thing is very likely just as relevant to weirwood magic as it is to Rhllorist magic.

The idea that Bran just wants to communicate to Theon and Stannis is really quite a bit weaker, and indeed, based on emotion because we don't want to believe Theon will die. But if Bran just wanted to say something to Stannis and Theon, he could use the ravens. The ravens can talk. Bran can talk through them, and already did by saying they should go to the tree. So what else could the tree add?

That beheading was a Brandon Stark, likely akin to the sacred king.

Bran didn't go North with the stated purpose of defeating the Others, but finding the 3-eyed crow. Blood is the same currency in the magic of both ice and fire.

Based on emotion? Funny, I don't see any emotional posts anywhere. None of them is "I don't want Theon to die, waaa." Putting yourself as the stoic, rational one while debasing the one arguing against you as being emotional is intellectually wrong, if not arrogant and a bit self-righteous. That is a form of ad hominem, and doesn't help your argument at all. Ravens say a lot of things, and I don't know if it is confirmed it is Bran trying to talk to Theon and Stannis, or what his motives are.

As for the truth about the Miller's boys - sure, Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon, but he still murdered two children. Are people somehow believing that, in itself, is not a reprehensible crime? Do people really think that if Stannis and co knew that they would be like "oh, that's all good then! You can go free!". So how, exactly, would the truth about the miller's boys do anything at all except endanger Bran and Rickon's lives yet again? There is a REASON they allowed people to believe they were dead. The situation has not improved and they are no safer now. Furthermore, Manderly and Davos at least already KNOW Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon. Why would Stannis learning about this at the tree be different than Stannis learning about it from Manderly or Davos?

Finally, this belief that Bran wants so badly to save Theon from execution: Why? Why does he want to save him? What purpose could Bran possibly have for Theon that would warrant extreme weirwood magic intervention? Bran may not hate Theon anymore, but he certainly does not treasure him so much that he would risk Rickon's life (by exposing the truth) to save what little is left of Theon. Not without an actual purpose for doing so at any rate.

No one is even arguing that, you're the one that brought it up. I never even argued that Theon would reveal that. My argument is that he would opt to take the black.

If BranRaven can see into the future, then they could have seen Theon's role in something. GRRM does surprise his readers, and TWoW hasn't come out yet, so anything is possible.