R+L=J v.84

[Prince of the North]

I rather had the impression that Jon and Arya looked like Starks, while Sansa, Bran and Rickon took more after Cat

Exactly. Get ready to have your mind blown by my incredible geometrical acumen! :P

If A=B and B=C Then A=C.

A=Jon, B=Arya, and C=Lyanna. (physical looks-wise)

I know everyone reading probably already knows this but perhaps it bears repeating: Martin unequivocally told us early on that Jon resembles Lyanna because he told us that Jon resembles Arya and Arya resembles Lyanna.

[Pengwin7]

Exactly. Get ready to have your mind blown by my incredible geometrical acumen! :P

If A=B and B=C Then A=C.

A=Jon, B=Arya, and C=Lyanna. (physical looks-wise)

+1 from me.

I like math.

[HarlQuinn]

When I first read ASoIaF I was a kid; so I didn't fully comprehend what was going on; all I knew at that time was that there were some naughty scenes and I refused to let my parents know I was reading A Game of Thrones (I started when I was 11 a decade ago). I remember that it was hard for me to understand, but Jon's parentage to me was black and white his father was Ned and his mother was some random women out in the world. I didn't think there would be anything significant about it; when I got my hands on ACoK and ASoS (I believe I was 13 at that point) and I realized that Jon Snow had a lot of POV chapters and while at first I thought it was just because he was our eyes at the wall I also thought that maybe he was special, but still thought nothing more of his parentage. Fast forward I re-read all the books many times; the last time I reread the series was after ADwD came out and it was then I started noticing hints about Jon Snows parentage. I remember reading the bit about Ned mentioning how Lyanna may have felt about Robert thinking that maybe she wasn't kidnapped. And then all the wonderful hints most of you already know so I'm not going to bother mentioning.

Still there was one thing I did that really solidified it for me. I kinda sketched out my own timeline of the events (not with actual dates but just what happened first what happened next) the ToJ incident was after the Sack of King's Landing iirc (please correct me if I'm wrong) so there is no reason for the KG to protect the sister of Eddard who's side had pretty much won and was there to take his sister. I mean... since he was her brother why would they need to protect her from the last person in the world who would hurt her. Eddard Stark is a very honorable person, but what if he found out his sister gave birth to the child of the person they were fighting against. Maybe Eddard wouldn't do anything to a defenseless baby, but it was obvious that those standing with Robert would (assuming the KG knew what happened at KL) and they did. That being said they couldn't trust Ned Stark would keep quiet and to them as long as there was a Targaryen Heir still alive he was the one true king of Westeros to them. Of course that means the child had to be legitimate. After I came to that conclusion I read around the internet that many shared the same idea's and many other's had introduced hints through the books that I missed and I've been a believer ever since.

There's only ONE thing that bugged me though. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I was wondering why had the KG stayed with a potential heir rather than a confirmed heir. I mean... why didn't they stay at KL, maybe have only one at the ToJ, and protect Aegon, his mother, and his sister? Also if Lyanna didn't give birth at that point how were they SURE the baby was a boy. Do they have like... Westeros magically powered ultrasound machine? I'm not doubting the theory (it's too strong to let one small point override, but let's keep in mind until it has been 100% confirmed in the books there is still a good chance that we're wrong), but I'm wondering why protect an heir if 1) He would technically be the heir to his older brother not his father (that is if his older brother were to never produce hairs) and 2) Jon Snow could have been a girl; his claim to the throne would have been even weaker. I just find it odd. I know they were following orders from Rhaegar, but if their orders was to 'protect my heir' then I'd think they would go to KL to protect Aegon. If it was to protect Lyanna and his baby I don't think they'd have... invested, 3 of the best to do it. If anything I think they'd have gone and then two would have left back to KL, because in the end their duty is to protect the King (who is still Aerys, followed by Rhaegar, followed by Aegon and then MAYBE Lyanna's unborn child IF it is a male).

I'm probably just reading way into it, maybe I'm misreading something, got a fact wrong, or the late time of night is playing tricks on my brain and blurring my memory/understanding of events. I mean I can see the KG going to Lyanna after Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon are dead, but before? Then again... maybe these guys already saw Rhaegar as king in every way but title; so I guess I can understand why they guarded Lyanna and the child as priority 1.

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

When I first read ASoIaF I was a kid; so I didn't fully comprehend what was going on; all I knew at that time was that there were some naughty scenes and I refused to let my parents know I was reading A Game of Thrones (I started when I was 11 a decade ago). I remember that it was hard for me to understand, but Jon's parentage to me was black and white his father was Ned and his mother was some random women out in the world. I didn't think there would be anything significant about it; when I got my hands on ACoK and ASoS (I believe I was 13 at that point) and I realized that Jon Snow had a lot of POV chapters and while at first I thought it was just because he was our eyes at the wall I also thought that maybe he was special, but still thought nothing more of his parentage. Fast forward I re-read all the books many times; the last time I reread the series was after ADwD came out and it was then I started noticing hints about Jon Snows parentage. I remember reading the bit about Ned mentioning how Lyanna may have felt about Robert thinking that maybe she wasn't kidnapped. And then all the wonderful hints most of you already know so I'm not going to bother mentioning.

Still there was one thing I did that really solidified it for me. I kinda sketched out my own timeline of the events (not with actual dates but just what happened first what happened next) the ToJ incident was after the Sack of King's Landing iirc (please correct me if I'm wrong) so there is no reason for the KG to protect the sister of Eddard who's side had pretty much won and was there to take his sister. I mean... since he was her brother why would they need to protect her from the last person in the world who would hurt her. Eddard Stark is a very honorable person, but what if he found out his sister gave birth to the child of the person they were fighting against. Maybe Eddard wouldn't do anything to a defenseless baby, but it was obvious that those standing with Robert would (assuming the KG knew what happened at KL) and they did. That being said they couldn't trust Ned Stark would keep quiet and to them as long as there was a Targaryen Heir still alive he was the one true king of Westeros to them. Of course that means the child had to be legitimate. After I came to that conclusion I read around the internet that many shared the same idea's and many other's had introduced hints through the books that I missed and I've been a believer ever since.

There's only ONE thing that bugged me though. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I was wondering why had the KG stayed with a potential heir rather than a confirmed heir. I mean... why didn't they stay at KL, maybe have only one at the ToJ, and protect Aegon, his mother, and his sister? Also if Lyanna didn't give birth at that point how were they SURE the baby was a boy. Do they have like... Westeros magically powered ultrasound machine? I'm not doubting the theory (it's too strong to let one small point override, but let's keep in mind until it has been 100% confirmed in the books there is still a good chance that we're wrong), but I'm wondering why protect an heir if 1) He would technically be the heir to his older brother not his father (that is if his older brother were to never produce hairs) and 2) Jon Snow could have been a girl; his claim to the throne would have been even weaker. I just find it odd. I know they were following orders from Rhaegar, but if their orders was to 'protect my heir' then I'd think they would go to KL to protect Aegon. If it was to protect Lyanna and his baby I don't think they'd have... invested, 3 of the best to do it. If anything I think they'd have gone and then two would have left back to KL, because in the end their duty is to protect the King (who is still Aerys, followed by Rhaegar, followed by Aegon and then MAYBE Lyanna's unborn child IF it is a male).

I'm probably just reading way into it, maybe I'm misreading something, got a fact wrong, or the late time of night is playing tricks on my brain and blurring my memory/understanding of events. I mean I can see the KG going to Lyanna after Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon are dead, but before? Then again... maybe these guys already saw Rhaegar as king in every way but title; so I guess I can understand why they guarded Lyanna and the child as priority 1.

This is brought up a lot actually and for most people, like me, the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy make us believe that Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne and that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. Even at this point Viserys is still alive and heir to the Iron Throne since they don't know about Aegon, real or fake. If Lyanna and Rhaegar were married than Jon is ahead of Aegon. It also becomes even more important for Ned to hide him since he is ahead of Viserys and we know how much Robert wanted Viserys dead. If Robert learned that Viserys was behind a child who was in Westeros and with his best friend/fiance (depending on when he found out) he would have the child killed even if it was Lyanna's. You are not reading too much into to it.

Edit: How did you even discover these books at the age of 11?

[MtnLion]

I see what you are stuck on. Let's first look at Hightower, he is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and his presence at the tower is very telling. We know that Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar, when no one knew Rhaegar's whereabouts. When he finds Rhaegar it introduces a big problem. If he returns to King's Landing Aerys is likely to ask too many questions, and being Kingsguard Hightower is going to be compelled to answer those questions. That is going to create a threat to Lyanna, as she is a valuable hostage that could solve the rebellion, or at least slow it down. It seems very likely that Rhaegar, being no dummy, thought of a way to prevent Hightower from returning with him. He tells Hightower to guard his wife while Whent and Dayne escort him back to King's Landing. (Rhaegar never travels without his Kingsguard, who we know are Whent and Dayne.) Hightower is obliged, because he knows of the value of Lyanna to both sides, and he cannot leave her alone. I don't believe that Hightower would have obliged if Lyanna was less than a wife.

Whent and Dayne escort Rhaegar back to king's Landing. Again, Rhaegar has a problem to solve, they cannot be anywhere near Aerys without risking some awkward questions. So, Rhaegar orders them to return to the tower as soon as they arrive. The timing is a bit tricky, but keep in mind that the tower is remote and the only source of news travels the roads, not the air.

Timing, now. Jaime says that there was just a fortnight between the roasting of Chelsted (and Jonothor Darry leaving to die at the Trident afterwards) and the fall of King's Landing when he slays Rossart. We know that Jon was born either a fortnight before or a fortnight after the fall of King's Landing. We also know that Ned arrives within five to ten days of the birth. That would make Ned's arrival at the tower no later than 3 and one-half weeks after the fall of King's Landing. We know that Ned lifts the siege at Storm's End before going to the tower.

It seems that it would be quite easy to have Jon born before word of the fall of King's Landing reaches the tower. When word does reach them at the tower, it is far too late for them to do anything, as the Kingsguard state. Feel free to read my dissection of the dialog at the tower of joy, link in my signature. ;)

[BearQueen87]

Feel free to read my dissection of the dialog at the tower of joy, link in my signature. ;)

I just read your thoughts on that. Damn.

Some stuff I hadn't thought of before.

It's interesting that Ned knows the outcome when he answers Arthur Dayne. How did Past Ned know that? Spitball idea: Re-reading ASOS right now and I just read the chapter where Meera tells Bran about "The Knight of the Laughing Tree" But before little Howland Reed gets to Harrenhal and meets the Stark's, he goes to the Isle of Face to see the Green Men, and ends up staying with them for a whole winter before the (false) spring happens. What was Howland Reed doing on the Isle of Faces for a year with those Green Men? Well, I think we can look to Bran and what he is currently learning North of the Wall with the COTF. He sees visions of the past as he learns. Might he be able to see visions of the future? Could Howland Reed see the future and know that Ned and he would win the battle?

Also we speculate a page or so back that maybe Lyanna was "taken" from Harrenhal and married on the Isle of Faces. Might Howland Reed have helped her get there, since she saved him in the story Meera tells Bran?

Maybe a totally mad idea but MtnLion got me thinking.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Regarding Hightower, you can work backward a little to figure out how they finagled that one. Suppose Aerys sent Hightower to find Rhaegar and make sure he came back to lead the army. As long as that order did not explicitly say that Hightower had to return with him, Rhaegar could in theory order Hightower to remain at the ToJ while he went back to the capital, and it wouldn't override Aerys's order, because Hightower did what he was specifically ordered to do. And once the three men are there, it's hard for Aerys to send overriding orders if he can't find them.

[corbon]

E.g. when she thinks about Brandon and Ned (when she compares their personalities and looks, it's a missed opportunity to include Lyanna),

Nope. Comparing her should-have-been husband and is-husband is not an appropriate time to be bringing up their sister.

about her time with Lysa and Petyr (Lyanna is never mentioned as keeping them company),

Nope. That's largely years before when she's reminiscing IIRC. There's some stuff late, around the time of the duel with Brandon, but thats more personal interactions, not so much the group thing.

about the Rebellion (Lyanna being at the beginning of the causative chain)... quite a lot of opportunities where we might have received some information to complement Ned's PoV, but we didn't.

Not so much. Lyanna is not a formative cause for the rebellion, Brandon's gallant foolishness is. But it is an opportunity. I just don't see a requirement that she should have been thinking of Lyanna there.

Sorry, nothing like enough 'gaps; to justify assuming Catelyn never met Lyanna.

Quick question that's probably been brought up.

How did Rhaegar get the winter roses for the crown?

How did he get them all the down at the ToJ, assuming the roses from there were the same kind?

And not only that, but at the tourney, how did he know those very roses were her favorite kind of flower?

The crown would have been provided by the Whents as hosts. No one, including Rhaegar, knew he would be the winner until the very last bout when he won, and the crown of roses are available already at that time.

Its a writer-driven coincidence for feelz is all, IMO. But I very much respect the idea that they may have been the only flowers available due to the recent winter conditions.

[BearQueen87]

The crown would have been provided by the Whents as hosts. No one, including Rhaegar, knew he would be the winner until the very last bout when he won, and the crown of roses are available already at that time.

Its a writer-driven coincidence for feelz is all, IMO. But I very much respect the idea that they may have been the only flowers available due to the recent winter conditions.

I think you're right. In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Meera says that the daughter of the great castle (Harrenhal) reigned as queen of love and beauty when the tourney opened. Five champions had sworn to defend her crown.

In the very last moments, as Bran contemplates the story Meera told him, he said that the she-wolf (Lyanna) should have been named the Queen of Love and Beauty in the end by the Knight (since that's how typical stories would go) and Meera says, "she was. But that's a sadder tale"

[jon rhaegar stark]

i think this would have been discussed a lot before but iam new so i wanted to others to clear this for me

some who think R+L=J as true seems to think that jon is still a bastard of rheagar ....i know that there are clues to R+L wedding and iam firm believer they married and jon is the rightful heir ..but what i wanted to know is about Ghost

Ghost is white furred and red eyed and we know BR sigil is white dragon with red eyes similar to ghost and BR is a bastard ...what i want to know is when jon was considering of stannis offers about winterfell he decides stay in nights watch when he sees Ghost ...ghost reminds him of who he is .a snow and not a stark ...i just want to know whether ghost is a reminder of who jon is when he is with stark's or it has other meaning altogether

and on how rhaegar and lyanna met and wed i wanted it to be like the tale of bard where he takes the princess from winterfell but iam not sure that's what happened

[J. Stargaryen]

i think this would have been discussed a lot before but iam new so i wanted to others to clear this for me

some who think R+L=J as true seems to think that jon is still a bastard of rheagar ....i know that there are clues to R+L wedding and iam firm believer they married and jon is the rightful heir ..but what i wanted to know is about Ghost

Ghost is white furred and red eyed and we know BR sigil is white dragon with red eyes similar to ghost and BR is a bastard ...what i want to know is when jon was considering of stannis offers about winterfell he decides stay in nights watch when he sees Ghost ...ghost reminds him of who he is .a snow and not a stark ...i just want to know whether ghost is a reminder of who jon is when he is with stark's or it has other meaning altogether

and on how rhaegar and lyanna met and wed i wanted it to be like the tale of bard where he takes the princess from winterfell but iam not sure that's what happened

Red and white are the colors of weirdwood trees, which are connected to the old gods.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Red and white are the colors of weirdwood trees, which are connected to the old gods.

yeah that too ..so BR has both blood of first men and valyria and taken the sigil based on the weirdwood tree and worships the old god yes it seems obvious that jon also has both the blood of first men and valyria

[BearQueen87]

Red and white are the colors of weirdwood trees, which are connected to the old gods.

Taking the color motif further

Red = Targ (red and black)

White = Stark (gray and white)

Red = Fire

White = Ice

[BearQueen87]

DP

:devil:

[BearQueen87]

yeah that too ..so BR has both blood of first men and valyria and taken the sigil based on the weirdwood tree and worships the old god yes it seems obvious that jon also has both the blood of first men and valyria

Yup that too

[Prince of the North]

yeah that too ..so BR has both blood of first men and valyria and taken the sigil based on the weirdwood tree and worships the old god yes it seems obvious that jon also has both the blood of first men and valyria

Yes, and I think there may be an even more obvious, less cryptic reason that Ghost would remind Jon of who he is (or who he thinks he is): Ghost is a direwolf - the Stark sigil.

[jon rhaegar stark]

Yes, and I think there may be an even more obvious, less cryptic reason that Ghost would remind Jon of who he is (or who he thinks he is): Ghost is a direwolf - the Stark sigil.

Ghost does not remind him as a stark sigil ...Ghost is different from other wolves with furs as snow and always silent and at start in the books someone mentions to jon that ghost is now yours snow based on GHost looks as snow white where other wolves are grey ,dark and shaggy

[Prince of the North]

Ghost does not remind him as a stark sigil ...Ghost is different from other wolves with furs as snow and always silent and at start in the books someone mentions to jon that ghost is now yours snow based on GHost looks as snow white where other wolves are grey ,dark and shaggy

I think that is exactly how Ghost reminds Jon that he is an "honorable" Stark (in all but name). It may not be the only aspect of it but I believe that it certainly is at least part of it.

[MtnLion]

It's interesting that Ned knows the outcome when he answers Arthur Dayne. How did Past Ned know that?

Maybe a totally mad idea but MtnLion got me thinking.

It is an old dream, and (present) Ned knows the outcome. ;)

That was my intention.

[Rattleshirt's Ghost]

Benjen Stark will corroborate Jon's lineage when he shows up as a pov character in TWOW. After all, GRRM said he would take us WAY north of the wall in the next book, and I don't think Bran will be going anywhere anytime soon.